neoraptor Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 wow, just wow. So 2 drives for mirroring the os, 3 for raid 5, new raid controller, since otherwise raid5 will cripple this underpowered cpu. Wasn't that supposed to be a HOME solution or you are going to build storage with 10 redundancy layers for corporate use. What is wrong with couple of hard drives not in RAID? One for multimedia, second for important stuff that gets backuped in the cloud/sun/moon etc. Also have you considered FS for that mega giga 10TB raid 5 you are thinking of? IMHO you are doing it super complicated which also increases the chance for failure and makes the recovery harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 wow, just wow. So 2 drives for mirroring the os, 3 for raid 5, new raid controller, since otherwise raid5 will cripple this underpowered cpu. Wasn't that supposed to be a HOME solution or you are going to build storage with 10 redundancy layers for corporate use. What is wrong with couple of hard drives not in RAID? One for multimedia, second for important stuff that gets backuped in the cloud/sun/moon etc. Also have you considered FS for that mega giga 10TB raid 5 you are thinking of? IMHO you are doing it super complicated which also increases the chance for failure and makes the recovery harder. Well I wouldn't mind a little bit of redundancy, we're just exploring different possibilities really. Anyone had any experience with this Drive Bender add-in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H. Veteran Posted October 20, 2011 Veteran Share Posted October 20, 2011 Well I wouldn't mind a little bit of redundancy, we're just exploring different possibilities really. Anyone had any experience with this Drive Bender add-in? I setup 2 test servers and have reinstalled several times by now doing different configurations to see what works. Wanted to make sure these things are bulletproof if i'm gonna give them my 11+yrs of data to store. I did test out Drive bender and Drive pool and they worked as espected. I'm running it for about 1 month with 2 750GB WD drives I had after upgrading to 2TB ones. I'll however probably not even bother with any of them. My data storage needs are gonna become expensive to backup and it's gonna suck to loose so much data too. :cry: I already have about 3TB in data and that grows regularly. I'll just use one of my 750s as a backup drive for my Music, Pictures and Documents folders. The Recorded TV and Videos folders (seperate drives) will probably (hopefully) live long enough till 4TB drives come out so I can get one of those in a USB external drive to backup. My new setup using WHS 2011 in the D400 (4 internal bays) will be: 1- OS / Documents, Music, Pictures (150GB of 1TB) 2 - Recorded TV (1.24TB of 2TB) 3 - Videos (1.49TB of 2TB) 4 - Backup (750GB for Drive 1) 2008 R2 can also do "Spanned Volume" which I'm guessing would basically combine 2 drives into 1, similarly to JBOD. I might use that oneday if actual HDD capacity can't keep up with my storage needs. I will end up getting a 3TB drive next for Videos and use the current 2TB for backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 I setup 2 test servers and have reinstalled several times by now doing different configurations to see what works. Wanted to make sure these things are bulletproof if i'm gonna give them my 11+yrs of data to store. I did test out Drive bender and Drive pool and they worked as espected. I'm running it for about 1 month with 2 750GB WD drives I had after upgrading to 2TB ones. I'll however probably not even bother with any of them. My data storage needs are gonna become expensive to backup and it's gonna suck to loose so much data too. :cry: I already have about 3TB in data and that grows regularly. I'll just use one of my 750s as a backup drive for my Music, Pictures and Documents folders. The Recorded TV and Videos folders (seperate drives) will probably (hopefully) live long enough till 4TB drives come out so I can get one of those in a USB external drive to backup. My new setup using WHS 2011 in the D400 (4 internal bays) will be: 1- OS / Documents, Music, Pictures (150GB of 1TB) 2 - Recorded TV (1.24TB of 2TB) 3 - Videos (1.49TB of 2TB) 4 - Backup (750GB for Drive 1) 2008 R2 can also do "Spanned Volume" which I'm guessing would basically combine 2 drives into 1, similarly to JBOD. I might use that oneday if actual HDD capacity can't keep up with my storage needs. I will end up getting a 3TB drive next for Videos and use the current 2TB for backup. A non raid solution would be the best and least complicated. How did drivebender work? I notice it says it's non destructive, i.e. if the OS drive or software becomes corrupt the data will still be secure. It apparently also offers redundancy but doesn't explain how this works. I know their is a free trial and I would test it but there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of point at the moment as I haven't got enough drives at this point in time for it to be worth while. I might shoot them an email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted October 20, 2011 Veteran Share Posted October 20, 2011 Drive bender sounds like it automatically syncs the data to a backup drive upon certain intervals. If that is good enough for your needs then you could just script robocopy to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFH Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I'm in the same boat and am not sure what to do. I really want to upgrade but I don't want to give up on Drive Extender and don't feel too comfortable about relying on a third party replacement. Drive Extender is supposed to return in Windows 8 Server but there's no way of knowing how long we might have to wait for an update to WHS based on that version. Microsoft have really made things difficult for WHS users :angry: I'll have to upgrade as 4K sectors and HDDs > 2TB are a real PIA with WHSv1… I almost bought DriveBender on it's final release until I came across discussions on possible errors in the current release… Windows Server 8 is not really an option for me as it will certainly not contain the Backup capabilities of WHS… Waiting for a WHS based on Server 8 means years of not being able to upgrade from WHSv1. Furthermore with the lackluster response to Vail I somewhat doubt that there will be another version of WHS - unless MS finally gets why (most) people bought WHS in the first place [iMHO: DriveExtender]. I have actually just come across perhaps an alternative to using WHS2011 softraid. http://www.drivebender.com/ BEWARE! DriveBender was released last friday as final version and it seems to still contain some bugs - there also is no review currently. EDIT: Read an update (http://forum.wegotserved.com/index.php/topic/21222-drivebender-gold-ver-1210-discussion/), seems like the bugs are not really that problematic. I may have to rethink my opinion on DriveBender… (And still maybe wait for Drive Pool before deciding upon my DE-replacement.) Drive bender sounds like it automatically syncs the data to a backup drive upon certain intervals. If that is good enough for your needs then you could just script robocopy to do that. Actually that's not what it does. It allows you to create a dynamic pool of any given amount of disks - varying in size - that supports selective data redundancy as DriveExtender did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Actually that's not what it does. It allows you to create a dynamic pool of any given amount of disks - varying in size - that supports selective data redundancy as DriveExtender did. That sounds more like what I'm after. Especially with the supposed non-destructive nature oh how it achieves this. Can you give any insight into (with redundancy turned on), how much space is available for storage out of 3x1.5TB drives as the website seems somewhat lacking in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoraptor Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 All this redundancy comes from your cpu, especially with this non destructive way. It is just another abstraction layer above the FS. My oppinion is that you'll create a crippled system which spends 20% cpu time for IO operations. And I wouldn't trust my data to some 3rd party solution. If you really want raid 5 get a low profile controller that supports it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFH Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Can you give any insight into (with redundancy turned on), how much space is available for storage out of 3x1.5TB drives as the website seems somewhat lacking in this area. Well, assuming that Drive Bender works exactly like DriveExtender - the Microsoft technology in WHSv1 - it works like this: The 3 disks are joined to a pool with 4,5 TB (not duplicated!). On this pool the shares (Windows/SMB share) are created - every share can become as big as the pool is. For every share you can enable duplication, which ensures that every file is stored on 2 disks. If you duplicate any file on your system this leads to a 2,25TB of duplicated space. My WHS currently has 2x2TB and 1x1TB => 5TB not duplicated => 2.5 TB with every file being duplicated. As I said, this is based on the assumption that Drive Bender works exactly like DriveExtender - and judging from their documentation (PDF included with the trial) it should work exactly that way. IMHO tech like DriveExtender is the best way - for the average user/technician who doesn't want to care about RAID at home - for data redundancy. I bought WHS exclusively because of DriveExtender… All this redundancy comes from your cpu, especially with this non destructive way. It is just another abstraction layer above the FS. My oppinion is that you'll create a crippled system which spends 20% cpu time for IO operations. And I wouldn't trust my data to some 3rd party solution. If you really want raid 5 get a low profile controller that supports it. Where you think the redundancy from a softraid comes from? BTW my WHS is based on a Atom D510 and since I built it there was not one instance where the CPU was even used 15%… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted October 21, 2011 Veteran Share Posted October 21, 2011 Where you think the redundancy from a softraid comes from? BTW my WHS is based on a Atom D510 and since I built it there was not one instance where the CPU was even used 15%… Even most Raid 5 cards will lack discrete logic to perform the parity calculations when writing data (unless you spend a few hundred that is). You may get a performance boost while reading as the data is striped across several drives. All of these solutions are going to tax the CPU. It just comes down to what you feel the most comfortable with. Earlier in this thread somebody mentioned that RAID shouldn't replace doing regular backups. However, we all know, whether we're talking about small businesses or home use, that people simply don't reliably back up their data as often as they should. I was also assuming that people wanted to futz around with RAID at home so that they had more to offer when it comes to the overall IT community. I don't really see non-standard solutions like DriveBender to really help in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Wow there's a lot of food for thought in this thread. Are solutions like drive bender on a day to day basis really that taxing on the CPU? The files on the drives being pooled are not likely to be updated on a daily basis anyway so there will not be an awful lot of input, mostly output. On another note, I have found another alternative to drive extender which looks promising: http://wiki.covecube...leBit_DrivePool Overall my thoughts on keeping my data organised, and secure have lead me to this preliminary solution. I have colour coded to represent duplicated data. Workstation: C: (120gb) Operating System Program Files D: (500gb) Program Files (Overflow) Contacts Documents (7Gb) Music/iTunes (35Gb) Pictures/Homevids (20Gb) Server: Disk0 C: (60Gb) partition of 250gb drive WHS2011 (OS) Disk0 D: (190Gb) partition of 250gb drive Contacts Documents (7Gb) Music/iTunes (35Gb) Pictures/Homevids (20Gb) Disk1 E: (1.5TB) Less important data such as Ripped Films & Recorded TV External HDD : (1TB) Less important data such as Ripped Films & Recorded TV Cloud Backup chosen 80gb keepvault @ $7/month: Contacts Documents (7Gb) Music/iTunes (35Gb) Pictures/Homevids (20Gb) You'll notice there is no raid or drivepooling going on at this time as there isn't enough data to warrant this yet, but I'm sure there will likely be need for this in the future. Hope this illustrates my solution well enough. I'm certainly open to any suggestions. I'll either use synctoy or an alternative for the local backups. Keepvault has it's own WHS2011 add-in to use. To summarise this leaves me with: 2 onsite locations for less important data (duplicated on server and external hdd) 2 onsite locations for important data (duplicated on workstation and server) 1 offsite locations for important data (cloud) Cheers guys, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoraptor Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 if not needing the external drive for anything else, get it out of the caddy and put it in the server. If you need more storage in future just put another drive, you don't really have the need of one entity (and therefor raid) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpotato Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I thought the whole reason OP wanted Raid 5 was because it's the most efficient space-wise. I don't see any point to using drive bender instead of raid 1 (which according to the OP is supported in hardware on that server). Since drive bender will use at least 50% of the available space to backup all files, it's the same as raid 1, but will rely more heavily on CPU. Personally I would just buy a RAID 5 card (assuming there is space for one). It's what I did for my WHS 2011 build. I bought this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115094 . Axel 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFH Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't see any point to using drive bender instead of raid 1 (which according to the OP is supported in hardware on that server). Since drive bender will use at least 50% of the available space to backup all files, it's the same as raid 1, but will rely more heavily on CPU. Main advantage of Drive Bender: possibility to expand pool at any time without a hassle; just add a drive and you're good to go… BTW: do you have any source that proves that DB will use more CPU than a softraid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Personally I would just buy a RAID 5 card (assuming there is space for one). It's what I did for my WHS 2011 build. I bought this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115094 . I might do this when I require more space. Does this card handle the raid entirely itself or does it offload any to the processor? Any other cheaper alternatives or is this the best one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H. Veteran Posted October 22, 2011 Veteran Share Posted October 22, 2011 I might do this when I require more space. Does this card handle the raid entirely itself or does it offload any to the processor? Any other cheaper alternatives or is this the best one? Most the "cheap" cards offload to the processor that's why they are cheap. The full RAID ones are $100s, ($300 - $&!#?) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816118107 They usually have a good amount of onboard RAM to handle the writes. Look at the options that one supports, even includes RAID 60 :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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