Apple going after the pirate site AppTrackr

[StankyGood]

The PC experience has shown that almost all of the worthwhile applications will eventually be duplicated (and usually) surpassed by open source alternatives. Prolific piracy is what happens when someone -- like Apple -- plays traffic cop and prevents this.

[Technique]

To me developing software is like an art and the artist should be the one deciding how people experience their creation, I don't think the user should be abusing that relationship.

Yet essentially you and others in this thread seem to feel that it's ok for the developer to abuse the relationsip. The only difference is what they're doing is not piracy which is illegal, they're simply making a piece of crap (such as apps that DO NOT WORK) & selling it. Where i come from crap goes down the toilet, it doesn't get sold.

I know what you said prior to that, but i also know what these other people are saying vs TheLegendofMart. These people are deciding they know best & that they've worked TLoM out, accusing him of basically being a liar.

I don't know who it was as i've skim read & don't care enough to go back & check, but someone said you can't get a refund on software from a physical store.

I don't know what laws you Americans may have, but over here, if i bought software and it DID NOT WORK (i.e. FAULTY) then i am eneitled to a refund.

How does an app differ?

I'm not talking about an app i simply don't like or an app that i've got bored of. I'm talking about apps that do not work!!

EDIT: & i realise i've made a typo on entitled there, i'm just going to leave it in to see if anyone is 'mature' enough to point it out </sarcasm.

All that aside, i have my views, you have your views, TLoM has his views & other people have their views. None of us are going to change them, so what's the point really?

[szo]

I think the best solution to this problem can be is in-app subscription pricing or in-app payments.

As a web software and mobile developer, I've learned one thing for sure that many people have said before. When you have a 100% customer base and only 20% of them are paying customers, focus on that 20%.

Look at awesome apps like basecamp, freshbooks, harvest, billings pro etc. They need an online subscription to the SaaS for even the mobile clients to be functional. Even if you pirate the mobile app, you won't even be able to functionally use it with no connection with the online software. Furthermore, the products from 37signals are so successful and many people are using them giving them a steady flow of income.

I am not sure if all apps can use this method, but games or other apps that rapidly develop features can do this by providing the latest updates through in-app payments. This can deter the pirates and you can then focus on only the paying customers who actually deserve your support.

There's a cool article I read on Hacker News about it: http://www.tylernich...business-model.

I think that if a user really wants or needs your app, they will definitely pay for it.

I mean look at spotify/hulu/rdio. They're doing quite well with monthly subscription pricing.

[Vice]

Yet essentially you and others in this thread seem to feel that it's ok for the developer to abuse the relationsip. The only difference is what they're doing is not piracy which is illegal, they're simply making a piece of crap (such as apps that DO NOT WORK) & selling it. Where i come from crap goes down the toilet, it doesn't get sold.

This is what in-store reviews, YouTube reviews and Google are for. There's no need to become a criminal that steals.

I've never once feel cheated after buying something on the App Store but I do my research first.

[downhillrider]

Apples reach can only go so far. They try closing holes with empty updates they tell you needs to be done just to stop JBing. But the community always finds a way. Same with Installous. Apple waited too long to try and stop it.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

This is what in-store reviews, YouTube reviews and Google are for. There's no need to become a criminal that steals.

I've never once feel cheated after buying something on the App Store but I do my research first.

that is not always helpful though, i've seen far too often where other apps you have on your phone can interfere with the new app and cause it to not work

[Dinggus]

Why doesn't apptrackr just shut down their website and make it to where you can only grab apps from installous? Or will there be a way for Apple to trace the servers the apps are?

Also, AppTrackr doesn't promote piracy, they are like a forum board where people post up links. The individual makes the decision to download the app or not.

[Vice]

that is not always helpful though, i've seen far too often where other apps you have on your phone can interfere with the new app and cause it to not work

That's just rubbish as iOS apps only run one at a time. iOS doesn't really have traditional multitasking. Apps are encapsulated with their own storage and preferences and need to be programmed to use specific API's to operate a very finite list of functions while open but in the background. Due to this on iOS there is no incompatibility issues between multiple apps.

But please sight an example on iOS.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Nope, stealing something physical from the store means you are depriving the store of being able to sell that item that they have paid for.

Downloading something means making an identical copy of 1s and 0s on your HDD and the original file is still available for them to sell.

As I said earlier, you will still be charged with theft if you illegally obtain Cable TV, among other things. You don't deprive Comcast the ability to show Cable TV to their paying customers and Cable TV doesn't self amplify so you don't cost them anything from that end either. That won't stop the law from jailing you for stealing and you won't find poeple telling you that you aren't stealing.

I guess my post was too accurate to warrant a response though. Interesting.

You should accept what you are doing for what it is and stop attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

[idoia]

Completely agree. But until they have some sort of automated refund functionality like the Android Marketplace I will continue to use sites like these to try out apps.

Don't you mean stealing.?

Hey people this man is a thief, a threat to society, and scumbag that should be in jail.

Along with the rest that support him.

'MERICA... F YEAAH!!!

[szo]

Well, the way I see it might be like you go buy clothes/electronics from a store. Sometimes, they don't offer returns or refunds and those items cost way more than 99 cents or 4 dollars. The app store model might be flawed, but people don't seem to agree that software in many ways is similar to those products. Just because it's not tangible, doesn't mean it has any less value. Most of the apps on the appstore are purposely priced 99cents or a few dollars in the hopes that it will makeup for the development costs and earn some profit. The cost of a developing a good app with a beautifully designed ui can go upto a couple thousand dollars. It's sad that the 99cent pricing has diminished the value of software and the hard work behind it by many developers.

On the other hand, developing enterprise software pays well because most corporate customer definitely buy the software even if it's obscenely priced for multiple licenses.

Most people think they are entitled to anything they want. If you don't have the money, don't buy the app and don't steal it. You wouldn't go stealing a tv from a store if you just didn't have the money.

Just as many people mentioned above, there are many good reputable app review sites such as mac.appstorm.net, macstories etc. that give good detailed reviews of apps to help you make a decision.

[Technique]

This is what in-store reviews, YouTube reviews and Google are for.

The information you research is only as good as the person who inputs it i'm afraid. The only true way to find something out is to trial it yourself, but with iTunes, Apple & Apps, it's flawed.

If i buy something from a store (including software!!) and it's faulty, i take it back & get a replacement or refund.

If i buy something faulty from the app store, Apple laugh at me & the developer does too while their pockets get fat.

I have apps that based on reviews & ratings through iTunes, i wouldn't have bothered touching as people complain about them no end. They end up with 2 or 3 stars at best. Yet i have no problem with them.

Taking it away from the app store for a minute, i am looking into retirement planning & investments at the moment. It's a new world to me, so i went on a website & provided 9 links that i'd researched (as you said .... research, use google, find other peoples opinions etc...). The only problem is most were either out of date opinions or plain old wrong opinions. Only 1 out of the 9 websites were close to being accurate & even then it was hardly detailed enough.

As i said, the information you source is only as good as the person who inputs it. This is hardly fair when Apple/iTunes have no credible refund policy in place.

If i get bored of an app, i don't expect a refund & don't think Apple should give one.

However if an app is faulty, then a refund should be due. This may only be ?0.99, but get 10 of these & it's ?9.90.

What i find amusing is people using "it's like......" comparisons to try and boost their argument, yet a lot of these used are silly comparisons at best. It's like nothing.

What it is like, is being like Apple refusing to issue refunds on apps that do not work, which is wrong.Whether it's 99p or ?99, it's wrong. You are saying it's wrong to steal, but at the same time isn't it also wrong to make money out of something that DOES NOT WORK?

Surely they are both wrong, or are some of you so blind to the fact? I'm not standing up for piracy, but making money out of apps that don't work isn't right. There should be a refund policy.

Out of curiosity though - how many of you people who are on a mission against piracy drive? And how many of you have done 31mph in a 30mph zone? How many of you have had alcohol underage? Cigarrettes underage? You see where i'm going with this.

This is no "it's like..........." comparison. This is pointing out that some of you people want everything run by the book, everything above board, yet i would bet my last penny on each & every one of you having done something wrong/illegal in your life at one point (unless you've lived under a rock until now).

Double standards.

[Shadrack]

That's just rubbish as iOS apps only run one at a time. iOS doesn't really have traditional multitasking. Apps are encapsulated with their own storage and preferences and need to be programmed to use specific API's to operate a very finite list of functions while open but in the background. Due to this on iOS there is no incompatibility issues between multiple apps.

But please sight an example on iOS.

Yep. Thats how everything is suppose to work...until you jailbreak your device. I JB'd my old iPhone 3GS to install AirServer, $7... when I found that it didn't work with my Apple Component Cables to stream video to my TV, I found "DisplayOut" which outputs EVERYTHING to the component cables which was another $3.... too bad AirServer won't load with DisplayOut enabled though :(. Oh well, the developers of AirServer have sent me some support emails and we are trying to figure out why it isn't working with the component cables as advertised.

[Ently]

It's true that 0.99 cents isn't a lot of money. But at the same token you don't want to waste it. People that say "Oh well buy an app and if you don't like it too bad" thats bull**** thats just contributing to the society that says "Buy buy buy and don't worry about it" that leads to Pollution or in this case supporting ****ty developers that then give us crappy apps.

Yes I know that most people use piracy as an excuse but not all people. I admit I pirate applications to try some of them I don't purchase afterwards because they are just a waste of money (yes even 0.99 cents) but at least I know that the developer now knows because of bad sales they just can't get away with making **** products. The apps/games that are good I then go ahead and purchase because a) i'm obsessed with collectors edition versions of games which you just cant replace in a digital world usually and b) I want the developer to make more of what I like.

People need to vote with their wallet, or as my favourite saying goes: "Money talks, Bullsh*t walks!"

[Vice]

Out of curiosity though - how many of you people who are on a mission against piracy drive? And how many of you have done 31mph in a 30mph zone? How many of you have had alcohol underage? Cigarrettes underage? You see where i'm going with this.

This is no "it's like..........." comparison. This is pointing out that some of you people want everything run by the book, everything above board, yet i would bet my last penny on each & every one of you having done something wrong/illegal in your life at one point (unless you've lived under a rock until now).

Double standards.

Well since you asked, I don't go over the speed limit, nor have I ever done so to my knowledge. I don't drink alcohol and I don't smoke. Nor have I done any of those things under age. You see my parents taught me right from wrong so I can identify when things are morally wrong like stealing or speeding, the latter endangers others lives.

But I don't really see how your drinking or smoking under age really compares to stealing. Drinking & Smoking can be done in a way that only hurts your body and not the people around you. Stealing however, piracy that affects the developers who work hard on applications.

The self entitlement I see here is sickening. And I disagree with you that iTunes don't refund people who buy apps that don't work as my friend bought the game Pandemonium which does not work on iOS 5 (Launches then crashes straight away as it hasn't been updated for about 2 years) and Apple gave him his money back.

Yep. Thats how everything is suppose to work...until you jailbreak your device. I JB'd my old iPhone 3GS to install AirServer, $7... when I found that it didn't work with my Apple Component Cables to stream video to my TV, I found "DisplayOut" which outputs EVERYTHING to the component cables which was another $3.... too bad AirServer won't load with DisplayOut enabled though :(. Oh well, the developers of AirServer have sent me some support emails and we are trying to figure out why it isn't working with the component cables as advertised.

I don't jailbreak my device so I'm not affected by this kind of stuff. It isn't what Apple designed the phone for so I wouldn't expect Apps from Cydia that do whatever they want to always play nice with each other within Apples sandbox.

[szo]

Technique,

You are right about buggy apps and it's quite sad also when the apps are expensive and the bugs won't get fixed quickly.

And I know many people will use jalibreak means to try software. The downside is this habit can also affect good quality bug free apps from honest indie developers.

However, Apple does try its best to monitor the appstore and test apps before inclusion into the store. Atleast, way better than the Android market.

The bugs that some people might encounter can also occur because they are using older phones with less capable performance for running the app that might have been made for newer iphones.

[Joshie]

The PC experience has shown that almost all of the worthwhile applications will eventually be duplicated (and usually) surpassed by open source alternatives. Prolific piracy is what happens when someone -- like Apple -- plays traffic cop and prevents this.

Except for games, of course. Open source has consistently failed at producing high-quality, popular games, but that's more to do with the slow, plodding nature of open source and the plot-driven aspect of most games.

Really, open source struggles in a ton of application types. It excels in a handful of applications, and yet there are people who think it's somehow generally superior to proprietary code. It's rare to come across anyone (other than actual developers--who are usually more mature and level-headed than your average geek with an opinion) who thinks that technology is best served by open and closed co-existing.

But really, the only completely *useless* opinions are those held by people who say things like "crappy software costs too much". It's an idiotic point of view, because who complains about the cost of a bad product? Any sane person wouldn't buy something poorly made no matter how cheap.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Cleaned

[Xoligy]

Apple are just waiting there time and money doing this im affraid, as said a new site will pop up and take its place if they win, and besides its not exactly hard to find a new source for these apps! As for the trying before buying comment, i once played a game completed it on free, brought it and there was no difference.

Imagine if alot of programs were like that for just 99p soon adds up.

[mokthraka]

^ The Oatmeal hitting the nail on the head. It's grotesque how people have no problem spending hundreds on hardware (be it smartphones or PC components), yet feel entitled to pirate all kinds of software.

except who pays for movie food... wear a jacket...

[Chemaz]

I have to say im one of those "weird" people who likes to try before i buy. I dont go to a clothes store and get clothes with out trying them on. You could say oh its only 99p for an app, but that can soon add up and the TomTom app certainly aint 99p

Newest example of that for me, was a week ago when i wanted a running app, to help me train and improve my distance. Now there are hundreds of running apps on there, and i had no clue which was one was best for me. The reviews arent always helpful, as most of the time they're commenting about older versions or it might not have any reviews as its a new app. Now i bought a "lite" version app, which i thought was ok, so bought the full version for ?2 to find out it was actually pretty rubbish. So in the end i turned to installous, tried a few full version apps, found one i actually liked and had all the features i wanted and then went to the app store to buy them (there were 2 i wanted in the end)

Im not saying thats the main use of these sites for everyone, but i bet the usage of them would drop a bit if Apple introduced a time trial system or a very simple refund system (e.g. a one click request a refund button) which i think would also help get rid some of the poor quality/crappy apps out there

[+LogicalApex MVC]

I have to say im one of those "weird" people who likes to try before i buy. I dont go to a clothes store and get clothes with out trying them on. You could say oh its only 99p for an app, but that can soon add up and the TomTom app certainly aint 99p

Newest example of that for me, was a week ago when i wanted a running app, to help me train and improve my distance. Now there are hundreds of running apps on there, and i had no clue which was one was best for me. The reviews arent always helpful, as most of the time they're commenting about older versions or it might not have any reviews as its a new app. Now i bought a "lite" version app, which i thought was ok, so bought the full version for ?2 to find out it was actually pretty rubbish. So in the end i turned to installous, tried a few full version apps, found one i actually liked and had all the features i wanted and then went to the app store to buy them (there were 2 i wanted in the end)

Im not saying thats the main use of these sites for everyone, but i bet the usage of them would drop a bit if Apple introduced a time trial system or a very simple refund system (e.g. a one click request a refund button) which i think would also help get rid some of the poor quality/crappy apps out there

What would you do if a store told you that you couldn't try on a pair of pants before buying? Would you shoplift?

If the developer doesn't want to give you a trial and you don't want to risk buying the app then you can not buy the app...

[Glassed Silver]

I have to say that I used cracked ipa's for trialing and seeing whether the app author did an ok job.

Almost always have I returned the love and paid for the app, otherwise I deleted them.

I know that this alone is not legal, but I can live with it from a moral point of view, as it's not piracy in the sense of what was thought to be piracy when laws were created against it.

I know it's still free pie eating, but you see, I'm not going the entitlement route here, apps that are pricey (5 bucks and well up) I better make sure to run ok, if there is no trial mode or easy return offered.

I do not condone piracy, but back then I felt like I was forced to take things into my own hands,

Besides that, a legit app purchase always feels way better than piracy, so if it's cheap already, show some love! (Y)

What would you do if a store told you that you couldn't try on a pair of pants before buying? Would you shoplift?

If the developer doesn't want to give you a trial and you don't want to risk buying the app then you can not buy the app...

In some countries you actually have a right to try, so it's them who break the law in some countries in the first place.

So why not spread the blame evenly?

(e.g. that would be Germany - you don't have a right to try for free (if there is a decrease in value after your try, you factually have to pay for that), but you sure are not expected by law to pay full price for something and return it the second after you deem it doesn't suffice your needs. With digital ware you would actually not pay for value decrease, but just something like an "hour of renting", which with a 5 euro app could somewhere be between 1 cent and a buck (if you're generous)...)

Glassed Silver:mac