Apple going after the pirate site AppTrackr

[TheLegendOfMart]

You won't get into an argument because it's largely indefensible. You're not going to win an abstracted argument on why you shouldn't be conned out of your $0.99. The iOS model vastly undercut the pricing for mobile games and allows individuals to install and redownload their purchases to multiple devices. It's been a massive win for consumers, but we still have pirates like yourself who feel entitled to free software just because.

The large majority of these apps are cheaper than buying a coffee at a cafe. You know what I've done when I didn't like a dollar or $5 program I didn't like? Shrugged and deleted it. Then again, I usually don't purchase apps till I go online and do some research first.

What?

You are assuming I'm pirating all the apps to keep. I'm paying for the ones that are worth paying for to me and dumping the rest, I never said I was entitled to I am just making use of these sites. Its nice that you have $5 to waste. I dont.

If the apps werent available for me to try out I wouldnt bother buying them even if it was billed as the best app in the world. This way the app developers are making money off people that wouldnt normally waste $/?'s on an App for it to be crap.

If Android can do it I cant see why Apple couldnt implement a time limited no quibble refund on Apps so i can buy it, try it, if i dont like it ask for a refund and poof the app is gone from my device.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

What?

You are assuming I'm pirating all the apps to keep. I'm paying for the ones that are worth paying for to me and dumping the rest, I never said I was entitled to I am just making use of these sites. Its nice that you have $5 to waste. I dont.

If the apps werent available for me to try out I wouldnt bother buying them even if it was billed as the best app in the world. This way the app developers are making money off people that wouldnt normally waste $/?'s on an App for it to be crap.

If Android can do it I cant see why Apple couldnt implement a time limited no quibble refund on Apps so i can buy it, try it, if i dont like it ask for a refund and poof the app is gone from my device.

Your argument makes no sense. Many physical Brick & Mortar stores don't offer refunds on some of the items they stock (and smaller shops like a mom & pop or small business don't offer a refund on anything). Does that mean you should shoplift the item and come back tomorrow to "pay" if you find out you like it?

The reality is simple. It is up to the developer how they want to market their application. If you feel there needs to be a trial for you to experience the app prior to purchase then you should only buy apps that offer a free trial version for you to test. If they don't offer that then you can let the developer know if you're interested and skip the app until they do.

Theft is never cool. Just because you may occasionally feel inclined to turn around and pay up doesn't make it any cooler.

[shockz]

So I'm supposed to buy the App and give the developer money for something i dont like just for the sake of trying it out?

What happens when you purchase software at a store? Most have no refunds on opened software.

AppStore should support demos. They have reviews for a reason. The try before you buy idea doesn't really fly many places, not without fees or hurdles. why should an AppStore be any different?

[TheLegendOfMart]

Your argument makes no sense. Many physical Brick & Mortar stores don't offer refunds on some of the items they stock (and smaller shops like a mom & pop or small business don't offer a refund on anything). Does that mean you should shoplift the item and come back tomorrow to "pay" if you find out you like it?

The reality is simple. It is up to the developer how they want to market their application. If you feel there needs to be a trial for you to experience the app prior to purchase then you should only buy apps that offer a free trial version for you to test. If they don't offer that then you can let the developer know if you're interested and skip the app until they do.

Theft is never cool. Just because you may occasionally feel inclined to turn around and pay up doesn't make it any cooler.

No because me downloading an App doesnt deprive Apple or the developer of that copy of the game, its just 1s and 0s. Technically its not theft its just copyright infringement.

What happens when you purchase software at a store? Most have no refunds on opened software.

AppStore should support demos. They have reviews for a reason. The try before you buy idea doesn't really fly many places, not without fees or hurdles. why should an AppStore be any different?

Reviews are subjective, people rave on about Batman Arkham City, i bought the game and personally i thought it was crap.

When other marketplaces offer a no quibble refund ability for an initial time period after purchases there is no excuse for Apple not to do it.

Im not trying to justify my copyright infringement im just saying why I do it.

What i find funny are all these keyboard warriors getting all high and mighty like theyve never infringed on any copyrights, ever.

[Shadrack]

I've heard that if you call Apple they will refund your money. Lots of apps these days have LITE or free versions that you can test. Other than that there are reviews of apps available on the app store and on the web with a quick google search.

I don't "buy" the "try before you buy" argument to support piracy channels (I know, I'm sooo punny). Apple needs to protect their developers and I support them in this. If something is pricy and you don't know if you should buy it or not and can't decide based on the reviews: don't buy it... you didn't need it 5 minutes ago and you will be OK if you don't have it. If you buy something and regret it, then call Apple and ask for a refund. Word is that they will probably give you a refund.

[TheLegendOfMart]

Its not stealing.

I've heard that if you call Apple they will refund your money. Lots of apps these days have LITE or free versions that you can test. Other than that there are reviews of apps available on the app store and on the web with a quick google search.

I don't "buy" the "try before you buy" argument to support piracy channels (I know, I'm sooo punny). Apple needs to protect their developers and I support them in this. If something is pricy and you don't know if you should buy it or not and can't decide based on the reviews: don't buy it... you didn't need it 5 minutes ago and you will be OK if you don't have it. If you buy something and regret it, then call Apple and ask for a refund. Word is that they will probably give you a refund.

If you do it too many times they will stop refunding you.

Sick of all this "omg you are stealing from the developers". No im not. I download, i try, if its good, i PAY FOR IT, if its not, i delete it and move on with my life.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

No because me downloading an App doesnt deprive Apple or the developer of that copy of the game, its just 1s and 0s. Technically its not theft its just copyright infringement.

Not this line again... That somehow theft is limited only to "physical" goods. It sounds good, but isn't based on common sense, rationality, or law. I will just quote myself on this to save myself some typing...

Yet all 50 states have laws similar to that of PA for trade secrets. If you managed to get a hold of the recipe for Coca Cola and attempted to sell it then you would be thrown in jail for THEFT. Even though knowing the recipe for Coke in no way prevents Coke from making new Coke for customers.

Theft can, and does, involve more than physical property and that has a long history in American courts. So you might want to justify piracy as not being theft, but the law and common sense wouldn't agree.

See: http://law.onecle.com/pennsylv...ffenses/00.039.030.000.html

Notice the title of the statute specifically calls it THEFT...

[TheLegendOfMart]

Copyright holders frequently refer to copyright infringement as "theft." In copyright law, infringement does not refer to actual theft, but an instance where a person exercises one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder without authorization.^[5] Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property and that "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright... 'an infringer of the copyright.'" In the case of copyright infringement the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law is invaded, i.e. exclusive rights, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held.^[6]

Downloading an App doesnt mean im stealing from the developer, it means im infringing on their terms which say i am unauthorised to make copies of the App.

Getting SICK and tired of it being equated to robbing someones handbag or stealing a car, its ridiculous.

[Shadrack]

Its not stealing.

If you do it too many times they will stop refunding you.

Sick of all this "omg you are stealing from the developers". No im not. I download, i try, if its good, i PAY FOR IT, if its not, i delete it and move on with my life.

So what? Want a freaken metal for being oh so honest? Vast majority of users of this are in it for piracy, and they are ripping off the developers no matter how much you tell yourself otherwise so you can sleep at night.

[TheLegendOfMart]

So what? Want a freaken metal for being oh so honest? Vast majority of users of this are in it for piracy, and they are ripping off the developers no matter how much you tell yourself otherwise so you can sleep at night.

Wow no way, thanks for explaining it to me i never would have realised otherwise. Im not trying to paint myself as a saint like some people here, yes i do infringe on copyrights and yes im one of the rare 'pirates' that actually pay for the things.

[Scorcho]

[/sup]

Getting SICK and tired of it being equated to robbing someones handbag or stealing a car, its ridiculous.

Now, this may seem wacky, but I have a suggestion. If you don't want to be equated with a thief, don't steal.

At least I can respect Lyric's honesty - he doesn't justify his actions with some deluded morality. I may not agree with him, but I was in the same boat when I was younger and worked a retail job while in high school and in college. Hell, I can even somewhat understand it if we're talking about the latest $59.99 single-player shitfest from EA replete with horrible PC DRM and bugs.

But iOS apps? From developers already scrapping by in a crowded app market with a sizable Apple cut and limited advertising opportunities? Please. If you really wanted to make a philosophical point about the lack of trial applications or returns, speak with your wallet and write emails to developers and Apple. Being your own Robin Hood is laughable.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

[/sup]

Downloading an App doesnt mean im stealing from the developer, it means im infringing on their terms which say i am unauthorised to make copies of the App.

Getting SICK and tired of it being equated to robbing someones handbag or stealing a car, its ridiculous.

We could go back and forth on semantics for the rest of the night. As I said earlier, the action is theft. Just as much as stealing the recipie for Coca Cola is. You might not like called a theif or be told you steal on a regular basis, but the reality is, you are and you do.

It doesn't matter how you try to dress it up so you don't have to tell your kids you're a bad person or a morally corrupt person. Or whatever drives you to fight so hard to see yourself as something other than what you are.

• Taking the recipie for Coca Cola is theft. You will be charged with "stealing" aka "theft" if arrested.
  
• Getting Cable TV without paying (by hooking up to the wire) will get you charged for THEFT. Even though you in NO WAY take ANYTHING PHYSICAL from Comcast, DirectTV, or any other Cable company.
  
• Sit in on a movie at a local theater that you didn't pay for (that isn't sold out) and you'll get charged for THEFT although you took NOTHING PHYSICAL and you didn't impede their ability to sell anything to a paying customer.
  

I'm sick and tired of people like you trying to paint themselves as anything other than the thieves they truely are.

Wow no way, thanks for explaining it to me i never would have realised otherwise. Im not trying to paint myself as a saint like some people here, yes i do infringe on copyrights and yes im one of the rare 'pirates' that actually pay for the things.

I'd see you as painting yourself as something other than what you are.

[RichardK]

[/sup] Downloading an App doesnt mean im stealing from the developer, it means im infringing on their terms which say i am unauthorised to make copies of the App. Getting SICK and tired of it being equated to robbing someones handbag or stealing a car, its ridiculous.

It is equal to stealing a handbag or a car. The value may be a lot less, but you are still stealing something which you did not pay for. TIme for Neowin to start providing info about people like you to the authorities. Would love to see some news story about you going to jail.

[neo158]

I think Microsoft got it right with the Windows Phone Marketplace by offering trial versions of apps, this doesn't apply to all apps as it's at the developers discretion. Trial versions are either just a restricted full version and paying for it through a link in the app unlocks it or ad supported versions are available.

[timster]

This line again? I swear, I've been hearing this since the 90s. It's one of the most stubbornly antiquated opinions on piracy I've ever come across, and it's every torrenter's first.

might be overused, but you know it's true

[Rudy]

I disagree with saying that pirating is the same as theft. Theft will hurt the person while pirating doesn't have as much of an impact on the developer.

Personally I think people saying that they wouldn't have purchased the game/app anyway are full of **** though. If you cared enough to pirate it there's good chance you would have at least considered buying it if there was no way for you to get it for free.

[giantpotato]

Pirates are like people on welfare, mooching off of people who actually contribute to the economy, for their own personal gain.

[TheLegendOfMart]

It is equal to stealing a handbag or a car. The value may be a lot less, but you are still stealing something which you did not pay for. TIme for Neowin to start providing info about people like you to the authorities. Would love to see some news story about you going to jail.

The day they do that is the day I sue them for data protect act breaches. Besides I wont get thrown in jail for stealing 99c Apps (that i do pay for) at the most I will get a slap on the wrist and a fine.

Dont act superior and dont tell me youve never copyright infringed.

[n_K]

It doesn't strictly apply to apple/app store at all I wouldn't think, but it applies to other things.

If I've bought a game or license for a game, and then decide to torrent the game files, so long as I've got the license/original game, why the **** is it any of your concern or business how I get it?

Torrenting DOS 5.22 allowed me to keep my original box still sealed. Torrenting total annihilation prevented me from having to magically get my CD unscratched. Torrenting F.E.A.R. allowed me to play it on a PC that wasn't connected to the internet which was required by that direct2drive ****.

[TheLegendOfMart]

It doesn't strictly apply to apple/app store at all I wouldn't think, but it applies to other things.

If I've bought a game or license for a game, and then decide to torrent the game files, so long as I've got the license/original game, why the **** is it any of your concern or business how I get it?

Torrenting DOS 5.22 allowed me to keep my original box still sealed. Torrenting total annihilation prevented me from having to magically get my CD unscratched. Torrenting F.E.A.R. allowed me to play it on a PC that wasn't connected to the internet which was required by that direct2drive ****.

You are clearly a thief and deserve the death penalty.

[SaltLife]

Man, stealing/downloading a full versioned app from illegal channels for "demo" or "trial" is so lame...

Thats like stealing from a restaurant or grocery store because they won't give you a sample... Guess what, not all places will allow it (some do, just like developers choose too).

Guess what, not all people are wiling to do what you want, and if not that doesn't mean you take it. You move on, find an alternative that does. If no other person makes the app/dish you are interested in... then what the hell, go for it. Worse case it you are disappointed and lesson learned. Regardless of how many time you get food poisoning or a crapy app, it doesn't give you a right to take from the developer/chef.

Okay, done, on the flip side tho I sounds like apple should implement a better refund policy, but that doesn't mean you should just take something (be it 1s and 0s or physical property)

[TheLegendOfMart]

Man, stealing/downloading a full versioned app from illegal channels for "demo" or "trial" is so lame...

Thats like stealing from a restaurant or grocery store because they won't give you a sample... Guess what, not all places will allow it (some do, just like developers choice too).

Nope, stealing something physical from the store means you are depriving the store of being able to sell that item that they have paid for.

Downloading something means making an identical copy of 1s and 0s on your HDD and the original file is still available for them to sell.

[SaltLife]

Nope, stealing something physical from the store means you are depriving the store of being able to sell that item that they have paid for.

Downloading something means making an identical copy of 1s and 0s on your HDD and the original file is still available for them to sell.

Way to miss the point.... I understand what 'copying' is.. Tho I'm more interested in the ethical reasoning you have... See, an app is an expression of thought and creativity, just as food. While you can copy the recipe and not hurt anyone you are not helping the creator if he wanted his receipt/app to be confidential and only shared with those who pay. It's an ethical standpoint, but I suppose you don't understand that...

[TheLegendOfMart]

Way to miss the point.... I understand what 'copying' is.. Tho I'm more interested in the ethical reasoning you have... See, an app is an expression of thought and creativity, just as food. While you can copy the recipe and not hurt anyone you are not helping the creator if he wanted his receipt/app to be confidential. It's an ethical standpoint, but I suppose you don't understand that...

There is no ethical or moral reasoning for doing it. I do it because its available but the difference is I actually pay for the apps I like and I trash the apps I dont like.

Until Apple implement some kind of automated refund functionality like Android does I will continue to 'steal' Apps and pay for the ones I like.

At the end of the day the developer whose App I like actually gets the money I wouldnt normally spend on an App if i havent tried it, the developer whose app i didnt buy doesnt lose out because i wouldnt have bought it without trying it.

[SaltLife]

There is no ethical or moral reasoning for doing it. I do it because its available but the difference is I actually pay for the apps I like and I trash the apps I dont like.

Until Apple implement some kind of automated refund functionality like Android does I will continue to 'steal' Apps and pay for the ones I like.

At the end of the day the developer whose App I like actually gets the money I wouldnt normally spend on an App if i havent tried it, the developer whose app i didnt buy doesnt lose out because i wouldnt have bought it without trying it.

Okay, last post b/c u are obviously are set in your own ways...

But honestly what you are saying makes no sense and you try to justify it but saying you purchase those applications which are worth it....

Why even waste your time downloading it? If you just skip all apps that do not offer a trial version perhaps you may find that they begin to offer free or alternative options. You have a serious sense of entitlement brah.

Tho I suppose society/internet has kind of created this thought process for us. I mean as you said, its available, so why not... right? It's not like you alone can make a difference by boycotting all apps that don't offer a trial/light/demo..