Who uses Windows 8 as primary OS?

[johnporter29]

Windows 8 RP is now my primary OS on my PC, have Windows 7 on a virtual pc should I need it :D

[dagamer34]

It would be my primary OS if Windows Media Center weren't so gimped in Windows 8. Don't get me wrong, I love the OS, but because Windows Media Center has stagnated, it hasn't been replaced with anything else, making my TV tuner less useful.

[Anthony Tosie Veteran]

I use the release preview as the primary OS on my desktop. My laptop's still Windows 7.

[BoDEAN]

So options to install this are a) clean install on machine (use as primary), b) dual boot with windows 7 or c) Run in VM?

[Dashel]

You keep saying that the UI is no longer biased/tailored/optimized for specific input schemes then write off any and all criticism that highlights the problem with that approach (even while ignoring that it obviously still does have control bias built in - just stupid ones for most of us - like hotcorners).

I still don't understand what you mean PG by " touchpads are using mouse emulation - not a truly native driver."

Touchpads ARE mice (ie they move a cursor). What exactly does this magical native driver do again?

[PGHammer]

You keep saying that the UI is no longer biased/tailored/optimized for specific input schemes then write off any and all criticism that highlights the problem with that approach (even while ignoring that it obviously still does have control bias built in - just stupid ones for most of us - like hotcorners).

I still don't understand what you mean PG by " touchpads are using mouse emulation - not a truly native driver."

Touchpads ARE mice (ie they move a cursor). What exactly does this magical native driver do again?

Touchpads are NOT mice - anymore than trackpads (which preceded them) are mice.

Touchpads (and trackpads) used mouse emulation (for the understandable (and sensible) reason that there was no native support for touchpads/trackpads). In other words, mouse emulation acts as a shim for normally-incompatible hardware.

By insisting that touchpad (and trackpad) developers continue using that shim, you are saying that mouse emulation is good enough. Tell Wacom that. (Their tablets also support mouse emulation, in addition to the much more precise native interface.)

Tell ANY user of touchpads and trackpads that emulation is as good as native support - then DUCK!

[Dashel]

"A touchpad (or trackpad) is a pointing device featuring a tactile sensor, a specialized surface that can translate the motion and position of a user's fingers to a relative position on screen."

Touchpads/trackpads are the same thing and most certainly are mice. (Mouse is a common metaphor for any device that moves a cursor) You didn't answer the question. How will the use of a trackpad change with this magic driver? Will it no longer move an on-screen cursor around as the user navigates? Who are these users that have this native support, whatever the **** that means, again?

Graphics tablets like the Wacom are OBVIOUSLY different because there is a direct correlation between a point on the tablet and a point on the screen.

[Night Prowler]

While it's not 100% I'm booting Windows 7 and Windows 8. It's been several days since I booted back into Windows 7.

[PGHammer]

"A touchpad (or trackpad) is a pointing device featuring a tactile sensor, a specialized surface that can translate the motion and position of a user's fingers to a relative position on screen."

Touchpads/trackpads are the same thing and most certainly are mice. (Mouse is a common metaphor for any device that moves a cursor) You didn't answer the question. How will the use of a trackpad change with this magic driver? Will it no longer move an on-screen cursor around as the user navigates? Who are these users that have this native support, whatever the **** that means, again?

Graphics tablets like the Wacom are OBVIOUSLY different because there is a direct correlation between a point on the tablet and a point on the screen.

Now YOU are being willfully obtuse.

Trackpads (and touchpads) are different from mice; however, they connect similarly to (and compete with) mice (Microsoft itself used to make a trackpad, for example) - all are, in fact, members of the *pointing device* subgroup. (Kensington and Logitech remain the leading manufacturers of non-mouse pointing devices, and especially for Windows - Synaptics is the leading manufacturer of touchpads.)

You can still buy trackpads for external connection - even for desktops; heck, you can even buy touchpads for desktops.

Why is there ANY demand for trackpads and touchpads among desktop users? One reason - precision. While you can do a lot with customized software for gaming devices (Razer, anyone?) such software is so hyperniche and proprietary as to be useless outside that niche use. There are users for whom a mouse is NOT precise enough - and for whom emulation won't cut it, either. (Just as there are users for which nothing less than Windows 7 - complete with Start menu - will suffice.)

[Zlain]

-I have only just started using Windows 8. I don't understand the point of the metro screen, if practically every application I use, such as MS Word, Windows Messenger, Google Talk, Football Manager, Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox..yeh you name it...they all open up in the desktop, so it is very annoying to have to switch back and fourth. I can definitely understand now why there have been lots of complaints to this.

-I love IE 10 though, but there does seem to be a problem in google search, you can't re-click on the phrase you entered...

-The speed of Windows 8 is great and it feels more responsive than Windows 7.

-I don't have a clue what the charms bar is for or why it is needed.

-I don't understand apps or what on earth they are for. They all seem negligible for me so far since I access everything online and its easier to view things inside a browser than from an "app" e.g. The weather app, to view the weather, you need to click the app, same with the news app. Why don't you just set your home page to bbc.co.uk or something and get to view both in one page from one click of the browser button?

-Messaging? What the **** is this? Seriously. I am so lost inside messaging/ people, I don't know what the **** is going on there.

Obviously I have only just started using this, but thus far, I can't see myself staying with the OS once the release preview is over. However, having said that, I guess I have to use this on a daily basis and learn a bit more and them come to a more reasoned opinion.

[contextfree]

-I have only just started using Windows 8. I don't understand the point of the metro screen, if practically every application I use, such as MS Word, Windows Messenger, Google Talk, Football Manager, Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox..yeh you name it...they all open up in the desktop, so it is very annoying to have to switch back and fourth. I can definitely understand now why there have been lots of complaints to this.

It's a screen for launching apps. I wouldn't say you're "switching back and forth" so much as you're just opening the launcher screen to launch the app you want, and then it launches however it does. This would be equally the case for Metro style apps, it's not like they actually launch inside the start screen.

[HawkMan]

Now YOU are being willfully obtuse.

Trackpads (and touchpads) are different from mice; however, they connect similarly to (and compete with) mice (Microsoft itself used to make a trackpad, for example) - all are, in fact, members of the *pointing device* subgroup. (Kensington and Logitech remain the leading manufacturers of non-mouse pointing devices, and especially for Windows - Synaptics is the leading manufacturer of touchpads.)

You can still buy trackpads for external connection - even for desktops; heck, you can even buy touchpads for desktops.

Why is there ANY demand for trackpads and touchpads among desktop users? One reason - precision. While you can do a lot with customized software for gaming devices (Razer, anyone?) such software is so hyperniche and proprietary as to be useless outside that niche use. There are users for whom a mouse is NOT precise enough - and for whom emulation won't cut it, either. (Just as there are users for which nothing less than Windows 7 - complete with Start menu - will suffice.)

Touchpads are not any more precise than a mouse, what are you talking about, both devices just transfer coordinates of travel to the system, while trackpads do know exactly where you put the finger, this is of limited use outside of hot corners and gestures.

It sounds like you're confusing tablets/digitizers with trackpads/mice. These can in fact use a mouse emulation to act like a mouse, but it's generally awkward. and these are the only devices with the "precision" you speak of.

[SYBINX]

I was going to... but decided on running mine on my Virtual Machine instead. I have been testing all my hardware/drivers and other applications and was shocked that they all worked? Well at the moment. (Y)

[Zlain]

[/color]

It's a screen for launching apps. I wouldn't say you're "switching back and forth" so much as you're just opening the launcher screen to launch the app you want, and then it launches however it does. This would be equally the case for Metro style apps, it's not like they actually launch inside the start screen.

Sorry, but I don't know what that means. If I pinned appliciations to the desktop start bar, why do I need the metro interface? No matter what I seem to do, I seem to be always end up at the desktop. So it feels like extra work for no added gain.

[efjay]

Been running it on my Acer W500 since release.

[Dashel]

PG, I can't explain it to you more clearly than that. If you don't want to comprehend the difference between a relative input method (mice/trackpads/pointing stick) and a direct one (touchscreens, digitizers), that's your business. When you clutter up the threads speaking about UI optimization without understanding this fundamental difference, you drag the entire discussion down.

You still didn't explain what 'native' means or how a new driver would change their use/behavior. I'm assuming that you think this native driver will turn a relative input into a direct based one. The only change MS has indicated is that there will be added gestures (swipe in etc), not the removal of the cursor, hence its still a relative input system.

The claim that touchpads have any superiority to mice, except for their size, is laughable. High precision mice are hyperniche? :rofl:

[George P Global Moderator]

PG, I can't explain it to you more clearly than that. If you don't want to comprehend the difference between a relative input method (mice/trackpads/pointing stick) and a direct one (touchscreens, digitizers), that's your business. When you clutter up the threads speaking about UI optimization without understanding this fundamental difference, you drag the entire discussion down.

You still didn't explain what 'native' means or how a new driver would change their use/behavior. I'm assuming that you think this native driver will turn a relative input into a direct based one. The only change MS has indicated is that there will be added gestures (swipe in etc), not the removal of the cursor, hence its still a relative input system.

The claim that touchpads have any superiority to mice, except for their size, is laughable. High precision mice are hyperniche? :rofl:

I won't dive into this argument you two have at this point but I'll say one thing, touchpads, at least with the right drivers, under Windows 8 should be superior. The thing is that they're going to support a good number of gestures which, as far as I see, you can't do with a mouse. All the touch gestures you can do on a tablet/touch screen in Windows 8 you can reproduce on a touchpad now, right down to pinch and zoom and so on. On a laptop/notebook without a touch screen like the new stuff we've seen at computex, that's huge usability wise.

Of course on the flip side you can spend some extra cash and get one of those mouses with a few more buttons and probably set them to bring up things like the charms bar or the new task switcher. Any mouse that lets you custom set kb shortcuts to it's buttons would probably do a good job in that regard. But very few people use those types of mouses.

[HawkMan]

while touchpads are superior in the way that they can have gestures, they're still inferior in their effective and precise use, limited travel, limited accuracy, annoying, in the way when typing, not as easy to right and left click, totally useless for any sort of gaming.

mice with a touch surface however... and I won't even miss the gestures if MS allows click and hold to drag stuff like the start screen back and forth like a touch surface would.

[George P Global Moderator]

while touchpads are superior in the way that they can have gestures, they're still inferior in their effective and precise use, limited travel, limited accuracy, annoying, in the way when typing, not as easy to right and left click, totally useless for any sort of gaming.

mice with a touch surface however... and I won't even miss the gestures if MS allows click and hold to drag stuff like the start screen back and forth like a touch surface would.

Those are valid points for the mouse, but you're not going to use a touchpad for any type of precision work, which is why we have usb ports on notebooks etc. Having one of the touch mouses so you can do the gestures plus have the accuracy of the mouse would be a benefit but we do have to keep in mind that very few people use those. I think the majority of people using Win8 will be on a tablet or one of the new notebooks/ultrabooks that will probably have touch, once you get used to the touch gestures then moving that same gesture over to the touchpad will help keep things uniform, consistent and also faster for most than moving the pointer into one of the corners, which you can do fast with a mouse of course but not with a touchpad.

[HawkMan]

I use a mouse for precision work in 3DS MAX any day, it's far better suited for that kidn of precision work over a tablet. in fact a tablet/digitizer isn't that suited for precision work, but is great in photoshop and drawing stuff where you don't need precision precision, but rather artistic presicion in the ability to draw good curves and freehand.

As for touch, good for tablet, I don't think you'll see many people using touch and on their 14+ inch laptop screens. awful for your hands and just plain awkward.

[theyarecomingforyou]

As for touch, good for tablet, I don't think you'll see many people using touch and on their 14+ inch laptop screens. awful for your hands and just plain awkward.

I disagree. We're going to see a lot more tablet / laptop hybrids and people will gravitate towards touch for interactions that benefit from it (i.e. closing a window, launching an app, etc). Don't forget that most people are already familiar with touch interfaces thanks to smart phones. I used to use a Windows XP touch screen at work and when I went to use a laptop I'd often find myself pressing the screen before releasing my mistake. At the end of the day any action that can be completed more quickly and more accurately with touch will be used more by users - using a trackpad to close a window is much more hassle than simply touching the screen.

[George P Global Moderator]

I disagree. We're going to see a lot more tablet / laptop hybrids and people will gravitate towards touch for interactions that benefit from it (i.e. closing a window, launching an app, etc). Don't forget that most people are already familiar with touch interfaces thanks to smart phones. I used to use a Windows XP touch screen at work and when I went to use a laptop I'd often find myself pressing the screen before releasing my mistake. At the end of the day any action that can be completed more quickly and more accurately with touch will be used more by users - using a trackpad to close a window is much more hassle than simply touching the screen.

This is true, once people get used to using touch, say on one of the hybrids that are both a tablet and then can be made into a notebook they'll be used to using touch on the screen that even in laptop/notebook form their first instinct will be to touch the screen, from habit really. Honestly when i'm using my netbook the screen isn't all that far from my hands on the keyboard, reaching up to touch the screen for me would be the same as moving my right hand off of the keyboard to grab the mouse, though with the mouse your hand is resting true, though you're only going to interact with the touch screen for a very short period of time.

[rfirth]

Sorry, but I don't know what that means. If I pinned appliciations to the desktop start bar, why do I need the metro interface? No matter what I seem to do, I seem to be always end up at the desktop. So it feels like extra work for no added gain.

Sure, you could always pin applications to the desktop taskbar. Why do you need the metro interface? Just call it an oversized start menu. It performs the same functions and more (please, nobody jump in and say a function has been removed). So you need the start screen for the same reason you needed a start menu in Windows 7. And in Windows 7, a program opened using the start screen also opened it on the desktop. It's consistent with Windows 7.

Opening the start screen is no more work than opening the start menu, and it involves the same exact action - either a keyboard button press, or putting the mouse in the same exact position that you had to for the start menu and clicking. And with the start screen taking up the whole screen, it has room for more content, so it should be easier to find.

[HawkMan]

Touch on a 10 inch pad is one thing, moving your hand all over a 15 inch screen is something completely different, especially in laptop mode where you have to hold your hand raised all the time.

on convertibles that are used primarily for browsing and 14 and below, myeah I can see it, to some degree.

[George P Global Moderator]

Touch on a 10 inch pad is one thing, moving your hand all over a 15 inch screen is something completely different, especially in laptop mode where you have to hold your hand raised all the time.

on convertibles that are used primarily for browsing and 14 and below, myeah I can see it, to some degree.

But you're using the assumption that people will keep their hand raised all the time. Why would they? I'm simply saying that for some quick tasks like going into the char bar and using those menus that people, with a touch enabled notebook, be it 14" even, could quickly do it with touch or otherwise they'll just use the touchpad with it's gesture support. The point being that people will get used to touch with a tablet or a convertible and then even when using it in laptop/notebook mode they'll probably reach for the screen at times not really thinking about it.