windows 8 Windows 8 Consumer Preview: A Call for Common Sense

[winlonghorn]

Good god, did you really miss the Windows gadget evolution of windows Vista? They have gadgets for ALL of that and more.

It adds the ability for complete morons to create troll threads and try to defend it, such as this entire thread.

Oh come on now! Gadgets were a joke! The capabilities of the Start Screen tiles and Apps are superior by a long shot! Why would I want small boxes in the corner that sometimes don't even update properly when I can get the tiles that make the information easier to view (not to mention can access all of the capabilities of Windows using .NET and Javascript/HTML)? The development platform behind Metro Apps/Tiles is by far superior and so are the usability aspects!

[Kelxin]

Oh come on now! Gadgets were a joke! The capabilities of the Start Screen tiles and Apps are superior by a long shot! Why would I want small boxes in the corner that sometimes don't even update properly when I can get the tiles that make the information easier to view (not to mention can access all of the capabilities of Windows using .NET and Javascript/HTML)? The development platform behind Metro Apps/Tiles is by far superior and so are the usability aspects!

Actually, I'd have to say the Outlook gadget works quite nicely for my e-mail (and refreshes every 30 seconds), weather.com's app works quite well, and I love my pandora app. Of course, keep in mind, I am talking about the evolved Windows 7 gadgets, not the crap implementation that was in Vista, and since you don't seem to know, all of those gadgets have full access to all of the same programming capabilities of the new tiles and MORE. Hell, the pandora app uses FLASH to play its music, from my understanding that functionality will be disabled in Windows 8 tiles.

[AJerman]

Oh come on now! Gadgets were a joke! The capabilities of the Start Screen tiles and Apps are superior by a long shot! Why would I want small boxes in the corner that sometimes don't even update properly when I can get the tiles that make the information easier to view (not to mention can access all of the capabilities of Windows using .NET and Javascript/HTML)? The development platform behind Metro Apps/Tiles is by far superior and so are the usability aspects!

But in essence they are the same thing. If MS screwed up with gadgets, what makes you think they won't with live tiles? I give it a little credit because it's more forced upon you, which means developers are more likely to take advantage of it and they are more likely to be higher quality, but still, I'm not expecting anything incredible from Live Tiles really, though thinking about it, it could be the only saving grace that the start screen even has. If they can make the experience immersive enough with live tiles, it could actually give a little reason to care more about a start screen over a start menu, but I can't really see myself scrolling around my start screen reading all my tiles rather than opening apps and doing something. The issue is all of these provide only a very small amount of information requiring you to open an application to get more. In a way, gadgets had the ability to do far more even.

[PGHammer]

Ok, it's mine and I'm not telling that my opinion is superior to yours or anything. My point is that those who DO NOT LIKE IT, they don't do that for the sake of it. Personally, my workflow doesn't in any way or fashion work with a current start menu. I'm trying to adapt, but I doubt I will. My different workflow doesn't allow anyone else to claim, that I, as a user should shut up and claim that Windows 8 is a godsend and so on. It's my opinion. Learn to respect it, that's all I'm asking. I know that despite my different views, you didn't attack me personally and I'm grateful for that.

Now back to the topic, my point is, that I'd certainly like some kind of switch that would make the interface more Windows 7 like (just for the under-the-hood improvements, because they speed up OS quite well). I'm not asking desktop to be made as a default option. I'd like a secret option in control panel, registry or anywhere else. I dislike that MS is taking away that option, because I'm using MY computer, the way I want. Before you say, that I'm a minority, reading about this and seeing the outrage, I could only say, that there are many more people who feel it this way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking to stop the innovation - I'm asking for more tolerance to different workflows from MS side.

I never claimed that my workflow was the only one. Further, I have categorically stated that user compatibility was the biggest issue facing Windows 8 (all the testing that has been done by other Neowinians, and myself, have done nothing but underscore it). I went into the Developer Preview with all their qualms (and a few others) as to whether I could actually adjust to the changes in how I do things.

The reality is that how I do things has, in point of fact, changed amazingly little, despite the different (and dramatically so) user interface. I use the same applications (few or none of which are WinRT; where a WinRT application is used, it is used in tandem with a traditional application), I play the same games, etc. Even traditional applications aren't tied to the user interface (as even the detractors admit). Windows 7 isn't going anywhere - if the Windows 7 UI suits your workflow best, stick with it - it will still be supported for another decade-plus. All I ask is not to be whacked for daring to embrace this decidedly major sea-change in the user interface.

[Woelfel]

Ok. For those who don't like the direction is going, let's hear your ideas THAT AREN'T "do it like Windows 7" aka, in the same design MS has done to make you more efficient. I believe that would be the wisest thing to do than just say: "Do it like how we used to." We all know that they aren't going to go backwards. So don't even try. I love Windows 8, do I believe they can make it better to use, yea, but I won't say how to improve it by saying do what we are all used to. The whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line doesn't need to apply here.

[Ilgauskas]

I never claimed that my workflow was the only one. Further, I have categorically stated that user compatibility was the biggest issue facing Windows 8 (all the testing that has been done by other Neowinians, and myself, have done nothing but underscore it). I went into the Developer Preview with all their qualms (and a few others) as to whether I could actually adjust to the changes in how I do things.

The reality is that how I do things has, in point of fact, changed amazingly little, despite the different (and dramatically so) user interface. I use the same applications (few or none of which are WinRT; where a WinRT application is used, it is used in tandem with a traditional application), I play the same games, etc. Even traditional applications aren't tied to the user interface (as even the detractors admit). Windows 7 isn't going anywhere - if the Windows 7 UI suits your workflow best, stick with it - it will still be supported for another decade-plus. All I ask is not to be whacked for daring to embrace this decidedly major sea-change in the user interface.

I'm not against those who embrace it. Don't get me wrong. I respect their opinion.

The only thing I'm interested is how much the businesses will (or won't) like metro. I think that they won't but we'll see what happens.

[Kelxin]

All I ask is not to be whacked for daring to embrace this decidedly major sea-change in the user interface.

This is what I have, and will continue telling my clients:

I will not say that you can not run Windows 8. I will not say that it will not doing everything that you could possibly want in a computer. What I will say, is if you do go with Windows 8, I will not be installing it, I will not connect it to ANY server in your business directly or indirectly, I will not troubleshoot ANY application compatibility problems with it, and to the point, the most that I will do with it is help you get rid of it when you're done destroying your productivity and ready to come back to getting work done.

[savourymonkey]

It's really good to see some people already taking to the Metro elements in Win8, particularly the start screen and provided apps, so readily. For those that have not, to be told that their opinions are meaningless because this is the future by an at best slightly invested journalist, is worthless. For many users, the issue with Win8 is that the majority of the innovation and development are outside of the desktop environment, and yet for many (indeed the majority of) Windows users, this is their primary purpose for installing the OS. No-one is being critical of Microsoft for seeking to gain a foothold in the rapidly expanding tablet sector, but some would prefer an Apple approach to the issue, where the desktop OS remains the desktop OS, but where the relevant elements of the tablet/mobile OS are incorporated too.

Apple has not, in my opinion at least, found an optimal way of doing this, but they have at least recognised the fundamental differences in work flow and productivity between tasks done at a desktop PC (or similarly-power laptop) and those done on a tablet or phone, and have adapted related but different OS's for the purpose. As to the "this is future so like it or lump it" approach, that may or may not be the case. Certainly, if Win 8 proves hugely successful on desktops and laptops, MS is unlikely to revert to the pre-Metro setup, but if it flops on the other hand (and success this time is not guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination), we may well see a return to a more traditional windowed operating system, existing alongside a Metro-style tablet and mobile interface for Win9.

Finally, to the UI point, the reason people have been querying whether or not the desktop may benefit from a Metro-style makeover is obvious: for the forseeable future, more than half the work we do, and in fact a good deal more than that, will be done through the desktop. It is a horribly jarring experience moving from flat, geometric, colourful Metro to glossy, transparent, showy Aero. In fact, I far prefer Aero as a design school, as minimalism ultimately bores and grows wearying quickly, but more than this, I value consistency. What people are asking for is not a change in how the desktop behaves, but rather how it looks. I think that transparent surfaces and odd colour choices can be replaced quickly and easily with a Windows visual style, and at least then, brand consistency would be preserved, if not consistency of behaviour.

[Kelxin]

Ok. For those who don't like the direction is going, let's hear your ideas THAT AREN'T "do it like Windows 7" aka, in the same design MS has done to make you more efficient. I believe that would be the wisest thing to do than just say: "Do it like how we used to." We all know that they aren't going to go backwards. So don't even try. I love Windows 8, do I believe they can make it better to use, yea, but I won't say how to improve it by saying do what we are all used to. The whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line doesn't need to apply here.

Double approach I think is needed in this case just the same as the Start menu evolution. Start it one way (i.e. initial boot up have the tiles) and have an EASY option to switch it to the other. EVERYONE IS HAPPY AND STFU.

Instead, Microsoft wants to push this brain damage.

[neo158]

I'm a Mac user but I have to agree with Paul - some people really need to grow a pair.

Windows 8 is the right mixture between moving forward whilst at the same time improving in modest measure the traditional desktop - I don't know about you but so far they've done a pretty damn good job at it so far.

If someone were to throw $10,000 at me and said, "buy a Mac or a PC" and Windows 8 was shipping I'd go for the Windows 8 machine - I wish folks here would actually read what they write but I swear almost no one re-reads what they write because otherwise they would never post it after reading it.

Agreed, the whole point of a preview is to get feedback on the new features of the OS and some people really do need to grow a pair and use it as Microsoft intended until it hits RTM. I've heard that Microsoft purposely locked the Metro start screen as the default in the developer and consumer previews to get feedback on it. What this means is that they may give people a way to disable it when it hits RTM.

Personally I like Windows 8 but I'll just buy a Tablet when they are released rather than upgrade, I'm still not convinced the Metro start screen works on a desktop or laptop

[AJerman]

It doesn't look like many people are really coming up with useful productive things that the start screen adds, and that's my issue with it. It may be a cool new experience to enjoy, but weigh the pros and the cons and you will find it's far lopsided to the cons. Just as an example of some cons: The start screen is large and resource heavy, meaning wherever that line in system speed is where the start screen doesn't open instantly like the start menu does, everyone below that line will be waiting for the start screen to load just to launch and app, this is a BIG factor as waiting for a giant full screen start screen to load would be considered entirely unacceptable when the start menu was instant on basically every computer. When using your system in full screen, the start screen is obtrusive and distracting when it fills the screen and covers everything you were working on, just so you could launch another app. The start screen creates a lot of changed functionality (I won't call it worse, because most of it isn't that much worse, and almost none of it is better) for people to relearn like the hot corners, different shortcut keys, and the whole basic look and feel that will confuse the hell out of a LOT of people. Metro apps have an entirely new look and feel which will also confuse people when standard apps worked just fine before. Metro apps just aren't convenient for multitasking, no matter how much MS want's to make it sound like they are. Working in IT, I frequently have a number of windows open, and a number of them stacked reading information from multiple. Sure I still have a desktop, but I'll have to use that for efficient multitasking, not Metro apps.

That's just to name a few points, and as you can tell, these points are IMPORTANT points, not 1 to 2 second differences in the time it takes to do something, or a prettier look. I like new and shiny as much as the next guy, but I also know enough about computers and their users to know when something is a bad idea, and the start screen has bad idea written all over it. It should be something that can be enabled by choice, and primarily for touch users, not for normal daily use. If you can prove something that the start screen provides that's a noticeable improvement in productivity, by all means, let's hear it. Maybe they have further plans to make it more useful still, but right now it's just not cutting it. It looks PERFECT for a tablet, POINTLESS for a desktop.

[Dot Matrix]

Ok. For those who don't like the direction is going, let's hear your ideas THAT AREN'T "do it like Windows 7" aka, in the same design MS has done to make you more efficient. I believe that would be the wisest thing to do than just say: "Do it like how we used to." We all know that they aren't going to go backwards. So don't even try. I love Windows 8, do I believe they can make it better to use, yea, but I won't say how to improve it by saying do what we are all used to. The whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line doesn't need to apply here.

Give XP another service pack to bring it up to par with Windows 7. Then, have Microsoft quit while they're ahead and close up shop so that the world can move over to Apple products, and we never have to worry about Microsux forcing us to do things ever again.

/S

Honestly, everyone needs to chill and understand WHY they are doing this. Changing Windows around to fit on tablets is exactly why. It give Microsoft a leg up in a market in which they lag behind. Also, PCs aren't what they used to be back in the XP/Vista/7 days. They've changed, and as they continue changing, they'll need an OS that can work with those changes, not one perpetually stuck in the past because a few techies are uspet there's no Start Menu.

[MorganX]

i wonder what will MS do after being @ say beta , while getting so much negative response. I think it would be better if they release it on tablets first and then work for Desktops , just to stay at safe side..

One thing they're going to do is update the Microsoft Touch Mouse for Windows 8 which is huge. There must be a way for a mouse user to swipe a whole screen to make it viable on the desktop. Unfortunately, the touch mouse is too heavy and has questionable thumb swipe sensitivity. But if they can create a gesture to easily swipe left/right/up/down full screen. This will go a long way toward making the thing more usable. Hopefully third parties will create lighter mice with similar functionality.

[Kelxin]

Honestly, so far, all of the "convincing" arguments towards using this are along the same lines as a drug pusher.

Do it because its the "COOL THING". "Do it because I do it." "I like it, so you should too." "All those people saying not to do it are mean".

Then they start using terms like they "get it" like a bad acid trip or pot head.

[MorganX]

Mr. Thurrott is hardly in position to propose a convincing argument here. He's been drinking Microsoft's Kool-Aid since 1997.

Yeah, he's a shill. I'm sure he got something for that. Maybe another paid trip to the Redmond Campus.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Ok. For those who don't like the direction is going, let's hear your ideas THAT AREN'T "do it like Windows 7" aka, in the same design MS has done to make you more efficient. I believe that would be the wisest thing to do than just say: "Do it like how we used to." We all know that they aren't going to go backwards. So don't even try. I love Windows 8, do I believe they can make it better to use, yea, but I won't say how to improve it by saying do what we are all used to. The whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line doesn't need to apply here.

We don't need the same OS to fill 2 roles. What we need is to make a tablet version of WP7. Then keep the old style desktop on the desktop and laptop that we've spent the last 30 years perfecting and not throw it away on a whim because of the tablet! The tablet should have an OS built from the ground up for touch, like the WP7 OS.

Did they learn nothing from the tablet PC days? Slapping an a pen interface on top of XP. how did that work for them?

It would be like, Apple putting Lion with a touch interface on the iPad. once they leave the touch interface they are in lion.

[SoCalRox]

I can sum up the article from Thurrot in one sentence: You WILL like this or else!

Seems to me that his attitude is, basically, that if we don't like it, too bad. YOU WILL COMPLY!

[Kelxin]

Maybe another paid trip to the Redmond Campus.

I heard Bill G. had a custom set of knee pads made just for Thurrott.

[Southern Patriot]

Ok. For those who don't like the direction is going, let's hear your ideas THAT AREN'T "do it like Windows 7" aka, in the same design MS has done to make you more efficient. I believe that would be the wisest thing to do than just say: "Do it like how we used to." We all know that they aren't going to go backwards. So don't even try. I love Windows 8, do I believe they can make it better to use, yea, but I won't say how to improve it by saying do what we are all used to. The whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" line doesn't need to apply here.

I've given my suggestion, at least as far as navigation of the Start screen goes when I posted the video of the Synaptics concept driver for touchpads. Doesn't really help with desktop mice much, but it sure would help with laptops, especially those that are multitouch capable. For mice, they should at least allow for a click & drag motion to scroll the Start screen sideways instead of using the scroll wheel. They already allow for click & drag on the lock screen. Using a vertical scroll wheel to scroll horizontally has never made a hell of a lot of sense, and even less so now.

[simplezz]

I heard Bill G. had a custom set of knee pads made just for Thurrott.

LOL

[+Warwagon MVC]

Sure there will be ARM tablets that will be pretty locked down to the Metro interface, but there will also be x86 tablets. The whole reason Microsoft created the Metro UI is because Microsoft didn't think the windows 7 UI worked that great with touch. But on an X86 tablet when you leave the metro UI you are back to the UI that Microsoft themselves said wasn't very good for touch.

[Southern Patriot]

, they'll need an OS that can work with those changes, not one perpetually stuck in the past because a few techies are uspet there's no Start Menu.

Oh, believe me, the "techies" are the least of the problems Microsoft will eventually have with this. Once the general public gets this in their hands (either from upgrades or buying new computers with Win8 preinstalled), they will have some major support headaches on their hands. As others have already pointed out, less experienced users can barely find the Start button as it is, and don't have the first clue about most keyboard shortcuts, so what happens to them when the Start button is hidden completely and even more keyboard shortcuts are needed to do things that were previously a click or two away with a mouse?

[Salutary7]

The only thing I'm interested is how much the businesses will (or won't) like metro. I think that they won't but we'll see what happens.

There will always be initial resistance from organizations to deploy a new OS--of course--but Win8 seems especially troublesome, and it's not hard to see why. In the coming months MSFT really needs to make it a priority to show what Metro can do for productivity. Does it do anything for the average office worker? Does it do anything for management? Does it do anything for a range of specific professions? Metro will look like a toy unless they showcase the power of some serious business apps.

[Woelfel]

Double approach I think is needed in this case just the same as the Start menu evolution. Start it one way (i.e. initial boot up have the tiles) and have an EASY option to switch it to the other. EVERYONE IS HAPPY AND STFU.

Instead, Microsoft wants to push this brain damage.

...ok. That "stfu" was not warranted but whatever, do as you like. I don't agree with your approach as it would require even more support than what was discussed earlier...it would literally be 2 OS' than just one OS with an app inside of it.

I've given my suggestion, at least as far as navigation of the Start screen goes when I posted the video of the Synaptics concept driver for touchpads. Doesn't really help with desktop mice much, but it sure would help with laptops, especially those that are multitouch capable. For mice, they should at least allow for a click & drag motion to scroll the Start screen sideways instead of using the scroll wheel. They already allow for click & drag on the lock screen. Using a vertical scroll wheel to scroll horizontally has never made a hell of a lot of sense, and even less so now.

I agree with this, as I personally did this naturally and it didn't work. lol.

[+Warwagon MVC]

What's going to happen if everyone hates W8, is Microsoft is going to bring in a group of people and show them something code named "Touchmetherebabyohya", then when people say they like it, Microsoft will say "You were just using Windows 8"