windows 8 Windows 8 Consumer Preview: A Call for Common Sense

[AJerman]

Who the hell says the start menu paradigm is the correct one -- you don't see people sloughing OS X because it doesn't have a start menu... Use what you're going to use and stop with your whining. It's absolutely ridiculous that some of you vocal idiots are so resistant to change... I've been using it and it doesn't add any more time to your workflow -- it's just changing it.

You folk are the same people who stymied the introduction of the car and every other technological change. And it's you vocal idiots who are going to ruin the experience as unfortunately the vocal minority always seems to push their agenda.

I like the change, it won't be any harder to support -- it's WAY more bodily intuitive. It feels natural and also feels like how you would interact with something.

To the dude with the 46 inch TV... It doesn't take you any longer with your mouse to mouse over the 46" TV than it would over a 100ft screen of the same resolution or my 15.4" monitor..... So stop with your TV excuse. It's lame. Resolution is resolution. As if they let you support users, you also don't have even the simplest grasp on support.... Calling Calum and Thurrot arrogant -- you just finished saying you WOULDN'T do your JOB unless you have your own way.

Yes, prove your intelligence is so much higher than everyone else by calling them idiots for disagreeing with you. Nevermind the fact that we come bringing facts to support our reasoning rather than just "shut up and use it". So does that mean that you cared to answer my question earlier about one single thing that the start screen does better? I'd love to hear you actually say something useful for the thread.

Also, OS X is far closer to Windows 7 than Windows 8. In fact, running apps on a Mac is one thing that can be annoying if you don't know how to take care of it. You either put EVERYTHING you frequently use in your dock and just occasionally pick them out of the Applications folder, or as I do, throw the Applications folder into the dock to create a stack and voila, start menu created!

If it is capable of running well and being snappy on a tablet/phone, why would it be delayed on an old graphics card? The content updates occur asynchronously in the background. :) Even leo laporte has shown it off running on a very low end system and performing fluidly btw. :)

Well, it's not the same screen that runs on a phone at all, that's a whole different OS. But tablet, tablets are built with fairly decent graphics processing for drawing UI elements. The issue would definitely come down to drivers. If you can get hardware acceleration, even a little bit, you can probably do it at least fairly smooth, but if you're running a low end system with a poor graphics chip or poor graphics support, things can change. Are you saying that the second you press the windows key, on any type of hardware, it IMMEDIATELY loads the entire start screen without any hesitation? I haven't extensively tested, but I have tested on systems that are very slow/laggy on the start screen due to lacking gpus/drivers (probably mainly drivers, i'd have to play with it more). I'm frequently surprised by the number of systems I work on that don't have graphics drivers properly installed, even though it makes a big difference even on an XP desktop.

Maybe I'm wrong on that one, but I just can't imagine with how much is going on that every system is going to have no problem drawing it at all. You could argue that if you have trouble, it's time for an upgrade, or just stick what you have, but it just lends further to the arguement that it's pointless unless it provides something useful in return.

[efjay]

Question to those who provide "support", what have you done about people bringing ipads or android tablets into work? Since those devices dont run ANY Windows programs and are totally alien OS's. Have those users been told to get stuffed, you wont support them or has the IT department accomodated them and actually developed programs to support those devices? I wonder because it would seem the same resistance would apply to an enterprise looking to use ipads in their environment or some other non-Windows OS.

[Southern Patriot]

Question to those who provide "support", what have you done about people bringing ipads or android tablets into work? Since those devices dont run ANY Windows programs and are totally alien OS's. Have those users been told to get stuffed, you wont support them or has the IT department accomodated them and actually developed programs to support those devices? I wonder because it would seem the same resistance would apply to an enterprise looking to use ipads in their environment or some other non-Windows OS.

Difference being that people who use an iPad or Android tablet aren't expecting them to work exactly like the Windows they have been using for nearly 20 years. People who sit down at a desktop running Windows expect a certain amount of consistency, some of which is now going away with Windows 8.

[AJerman]

Question to those who provide "support", what have you done about people bringing ipads or android tablets into work? Since those devices dont run ANY Windows programs and are totally alien OS's. Have those users been told to get stuffed, you wont support them or has the IT department accomodated them and actually developed programs to support those devices? I wonder because it would seem the same resistance would apply to an enterprise looking to use ipads in their environment or some other non-Windows OS.

Typically in an enterprise environment, yes, the answer would be too bad. Unless you have a specific business plan to use those devices, you tell people to have fun, or even tell them to keep them off the network. Support contracts will rarely include support for someone's random device they brought from home. If there can be a useful reason to use such a device, support can be tested and added for it. As an example, I work for IBM. We have no official support for Android or iPads at all, however, there are some pilot programs running to bring some common applications to them such as Lotus Notes ( :x). These pilot programs would be initiated by a increase in demand for support for those products, and the vision to create applications to make them useful for business purposes. Another issue frequently encountered would be security. These devices aren't all that secure by default, so adding enterprise support to them also typically means locking them down quite a bit, assuming you have information you don't want to lose. It doesn't really compare to a new version of Windows though. I can assure you that the large majority of enterprises won't be developing metro apps. If they do support Windows 8, they will support standard desktop mode apps like before. But hell, good luck finding even Windows 7 in a lot of corporate environments.

[efjay]

Difference being that people who use an iPad or Android tablet aren't expecting them to work exactly like the Windows they have been using for nearly 20 years. People who sit down at a desktop running Windows expect a certain amount of consistency, some of which is now going away with Windows 8.

But that hasnt stopped them adapting and being productive, has it? Lots of businesses are on record as saying they will be deploying ipads so any consistency those users had using Windows goes out the window. With Windows 8, you adapt to the new way of operating the OS but still have familiar elements to work with. If you can adapt to using a completely touch enabled device just because you are sitting at a desktop expecting Windows doesnt preclude you from learning a new way to use it.

[Kelxin]

80% of my clients I have migrated to Windows 7. The rest stay on Windows XP due to application or hardware compatibility issues. As far as the tablets, over 1/2 of my clients have tablets that they use for one reason or another in a corporate environment. The thing that I have found to be the best direction to go, is a remote desktop environment for those devices to give them the support of windows for the applications they need it on.

[efjay]

Typically in an enterprise environment, yes, the answer would be too bad. Unless you have a specific business plan to use those devices, you tell people to have fun, or even tell them to keep them off the network. Support contracts will rarely include support for someone's random device they brought from home. If there can be a useful reason to use such a device, support can be tested and added for it. As an example, I work for IBM. We have no official support for Android or iPads at all, however, there are some pilot programs running to bring some common applications to them such as Lotus Notes ( :x). These pilot programs would be initiated by a increase in demand for support for those products, and the vision to create applications to make them useful for business purposes. Another issue frequently encountered would be security. These devices aren't all that secure by default, so adding enterprise support to them also typically means locking them down quite a bit, assuming you have information you don't want to lose. It doesn't really compare to a new version of Windows though. I can assure you that the large majority of enterprises won't be developing metro apps. If they do support Windows 8, they will support standard desktop mode apps like before. But hell, good luck finding even Windows 7 in a lot of corporate environments.

I think you make a strong case for Windows 8. All the shortcomings will be addressed by a Windows 8 x86 tablet and will only require users to master the new OS, no need to run pilot programs and they can have access to the full suite of enterprise applications.

And why do you think enterprises wont create Metro applications? I fail to see why they would for other OS's but not for Windows 8.

[AJerman]

I think you make a strong case for Windows 8. All the shortcomings will be addressed by a Windows 8 x86 tablet and will only require users to master the new OS, no need to run pilot programs and they can have access to the full suite of enterprise applications. And why do you think enterprises wont create Metro applications? I fail to see why they would for other OS's but not for Windows 8.

A Windows 8 tablet, sure. I think Windows 8 with the Metro start screen is fantastic on a tablet. And why would companies rewrite their already working software just for it to run in a silly Metro app when it runs in a full app just fine? You might have some companies that go above and beyond, but I don't even think Metro will be around by the time adoption gets there.

[Southern Patriot]

OK, I have an honest question from a support standpoint. If I go to sit down at someone's computer to work on it for them, and it is running Windows 8, how can I pull up a list of all of the apps they have installed (other than going to the control panel and add/remove programs)? In every version of Windows since 1995, that has been a simple matter of clicking on the Start menu and going to either the "Programs" or "All Programs" links. I can't seem to find a way to replicate this in Windows 8. It is very often useful to know exactly what programs they have installed in order to fix whatever is wrong on their computer.

Working on my own computer is one thing (since I know what is installed, and can easily use search to find it if necessary), but working on someone else's computer is an entirely different matter.

For that matter, the same thing applies to someone who buys a new computer. How are they supposed to know what apps are already installed without the Programs menu?

[Dot Matrix]

But hell, good luck finding even Windows 7 in a lot of corporate environments.

My last job was with a company that deployed Windows 7 almost instantly upon release. Users adapted with little fuss. :)

OK, I have an honest question from a support standpoint. If I go to sit down at someone's computer to work on it for them, and it is running Windows 8, how can I pull up a list of all of the apps they have installed (other than going to the control panel and add/remove programs)? In every version of Windows since 1995, that has been a simple matter of clicking on the Start menu and going to either the "Programs" or "All Programs" links. I can't seem to find a way to replicate this in Windows 8. It is very often useful to know exactly what programs they have installed in order to fix whatever is wrong on their computer.

Working on my own computer is one thing (since I know what is installed, and can easily use search to find it if necessary), but working on someone else's computer is an entirely different matter.

For that matter, the same thing applies to someone who buys a new computer. How are they supposed to know what apps are already installed without the Programs menu?

Start > Right click in any open space on the Metro screen > All Apps.

OR

Win+C (Charms) > Search

Done.

[Southern Patriot]

My last job was with a company that deployed Windows 7 almost instantly upon release. Users adapted with little fuss. :)

That's a very rare company indeed.

[AJerman]

My last job was with a company that deployed Windows 7 almost instantly upon release. Users adapted with little fuss. :)

That's awesome, I wish more places would do that, but the reality is that it's VERY difficult to convince companies to spend the money to deploy a new OS when the one they have is working fine. It's a lot easier to get them new systems with a new OS on it, or prove something they need in a newer OS to convince them to upgrade. Rarely does it just happen because a new OS is out. Most companies don't spend anywhere NEAR as much money on IT as they should. Most companies that would roll it out quickly either are small companies or companies with some kind of an MSDN agreement. Even here at IBM I've never seen Windows 7. Every Windows based machine has been XP.

[Kelxin]

My last job was with a company that deployed Windows 7 almost instantly upon release. Users adapted with little fuss. :)

Windows 7 was easy to deploy and migrate to. Windows Vista was an OS I recommended all of my clients avoid due to UI changes and driver issues. Windows XP to Windows 7 is a snap, just as I hope Windows 7 to Windows 9 will be.

Personally, I think an easy way to compare public reaction to the test OS's is seen here.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=MSFT < Microsoft Shares

VS

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AAPL < Apple Shares

Many times in the past I've been called a MS fanboy, but in this case they're screwing it up again.

[Southern Patriot]

Start > Right click in any open space on the Metro screen > All Apps.

OR

Win+C (Charms) > Search

Done.

Fair enough. Not as compact or concise as the Programs menu (and I can only imagine how cluttered it will look on my Mother-in-Law's computer), but I guess it gets the job done. (you must have edited your post to include that while I was replying to the other part).

[subcld]

I must say that is an excellent post, can we not make this a sticky :D

yep this article should be sticky

[johnporter29]

deleted

[BajiRav]

Nevermind the fact that we come bringing facts to support our reasoning rather than just "shut up and use it".

Sorry, what facts are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one besides "but I want a start menu/button" because I had it for last XX years. The often quoted customer support scenario is pointless and doesn't prove anything. Those "dumb customers" as many here like to call them, aren't going to grow an extra brain with a start menu.

Hey idiot, you might want to shut up, you're exposing how little you know about computers. I guarantee your 15.4" monitor isn't running 1920x1080 or higher, and a mouse pointer moves at a certain pixel per second unless you crank it up. No my mouse does not move the same speed as yours, and it does not take the same amount of time to mouse over, and again, its not my JOB, its my BUSINESS and I OWN it. My clients pay me for my recommendations to run their business. If my recommendation is to not get anywhere near Microsoft's next OS, my clients know I have good reasons and LISTEN to me because they know I actually have knowledge about computers, unlike sniveling teenagers that just post snide remarks on their little 15" laptops that were given to them.

wow, just wow.

[ajnauron]

It's weird to me how the Metro Start Screen is designed. It's minimalist in some ways, like the removal of the start orb and the emphasis on corners and edges, and I'm a huge fan of minimalism and hidden functions.

However, I'm not a fan of the start screen and other Metro UI elements as they have been implemented here. Hibernate/Shut down now takes double the clicks to get to than it used to, and the response from users here has been to adapt to it in some other way. Why adapt to them? The main issue I see is that Sinofsky is trying to be like Steve Jobs, telling people what they want and making the people adapt to the software rather than the other way around. What happened to the incredible choice and customizability of using Windows? For years it's always been "If you don't like it, here's a way to get it back", and now suddenly its "if you don't like it, suck it up or use something else?"

As tech-savvy users, we could adapt to this stuff if we wanted to. But asking the general public to learn all these new gestures and shortcuts to do things that they could do without all this stuff before is just bizarre.

[CPressland]

While I don't like Mr Thurrott as much as I used to a few years back, I have to agree with everything that has been said here.

I just recently upgraded a Client's IT Base to Windows 7, and users have spent more time making the OS look like Windows 2000 than actually learning the new OS and moving forward in time. Windows 8 is no different, get used to it!

[BajiRav]

It's weird to me how the Metro Start Screen is designed. It's minimalist in some ways, like the removal of the start orb and the emphasis on corners and edges, and I'm a huge fan of minimalism and hidden functions.

However, I'm not a fan of the start screen and other Metro UI elements as they have been implemented here. Hibernate/Shut down now takes double the clicks to get to than it used to, and the response from users here has been to adapt to it in some other way. Why adapt to them? The main issue I see is that Sinofsky is trying to be like Steve Jobs, telling people what they want and making the people adapt to the software rather than the other way around. What happened to the incredible choice and customizability of using Windows? For years it's always been "If you don't like it, here's a way to get it back", and now suddenly its "if you don't like it, suck it up or use something else?"

As tech-savvy users, we could adapt to this stuff if we wanted to. But asking the general public to learn all these new gestures and shortcuts to do things that they could do without all this stuff before is just bizarre.

yea shutdown/hibernate is a click or two longer than it needs to be but as a tech-savvy user you could also use the power button on the keyboard or tower.

[Ci7]

While I don't like Mr Thurrott as much as I used to a few years back, I have to agree with everything that has been said here.

I just recently upgraded a Client's IT Base to Windows 7, and users have spent more time making the OS look like Windows 2000 than actually learning the new OS and moving forward in time. Windows 8 is no different, get used to it!

*facepalm @ clients *

[Alladaskill17]

Sounds like he's a little too butthurt that people aren't drooling over Win 8.

After reading that blurb, I'd have to say that he's quite an ignorant as*hole. People aren't complaining like crazy for no reason. Plain and simple, it was stupid to make such drastic changes and completely overhaul the Windows we're come to learn over the past 20 years. Microsoft doesn't always know what's right. The users and developers determine that, and we can all see where their standpoint is thus far...

He is hardly an ignorant as*hole for that statement. I do not care for Paul, but surely you have to see the logic in his statement. The whole point of the CP is to TEST NEW FEATURES, not download a 3rd party app and go about your day, that is of NO benefit to Microsoft and their reasons for releasing the CP in the first place. These dumbas*es are just downloading it, and immediately conforming it to what they are use to rather than actually testing the software that was distributed for testing purposes.

[Dot Matrix]

Fair enough. Not as compact or concise as the Programs menu (and I can only imagine how cluttered it will look on my Mother-in-Law's computer), but I guess it gets the job done. (you must have edited your post to include that while I was replying to the other part).

The menu needs a little cleaning up, preferably by software developer or maybe even alphabetized, but it's still there for better or worse.

[AJerman]

Sorry, what facts are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one besides "but I want a start menu/button" because I had it for last XX years. The often quoted customer support scenario is pointless and doesn't prove anything. Those "dumb customers" as many here like to call them, aren't going to grow an extra brain with a start menu.

I mean, as I asked previously, tell me one thing that the metro start screen does more efficiently than the standard desktop did on Windows 7. Read the last few pages. I asked and got little in response, however, I listed a number of valid concerns regarding the change to the metro start screen. You see, in the logical evolution of any product, you typically don't just change things for the hell of it when it brings no positive impact to people and can bring a large negative impact. I'm typically the one running a beta version of any OS I can get my hands on to have the latest and greatest. I live on the cutting edge of technology. However, in this case, I don't see anything useful that this change brings, and I'm not going to just blindly follow along and say "IT'S THE GREATEST EVOLUTION IN WINDOWS HISTORY!" blindly, just because the new version of Windows has it. I'm fully open to ideas that make it a useful change in Windows, but have yet to see any. As said before, I see no reason for this to run any differently than Windows Media Center does. As a separate app that you can run if you want to, and if you have the proper device for it (media center in that case, touch screen in this case), you can just drop it in the ole startup folder and it'll boot right into it. Or perhaps they would integrate it slightly more, but still, have a switch so that you can use it or not.

Change for the sake of change is pointless and in a case like this, very detrimental to your product when it's going to confuse the large majority of your users. Can you tell me a useful reason for using the start screen other than it's new and pretty?

[Southern Patriot]

The menu needs a little cleaning up, preferably by software developer or maybe even alphabetized, but it's still there for better or worse.

Actually, it is alphabetized, just like the programs list in WP7, except that it is broken down by category of app as well. I had an HD7 and that was one of the things I disliked about it too.