Behind Windows 8. Agree or Disagree.

By freak180
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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Grand Master

freak180

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I'm going to state my opinion on Windows 8 and I hope I dont get bashed for it either. We can all agree we all love something about the new Windows 8 Consumer Preview as well as dislike something about it. But we should all be allowed to state the Cons and Pros for Windows 8 without being accused as being a "Windows 8 hater" as most of you would put it. One thing I really enjoy in the Consumer Preview is the performance and the boot times with this operating system. It's amazingly fast and snappier than Windows 7 for sure. That alone is enough for me as the next operating system. I think the what is really going on is that most of us are settling down with Metro. Is it a nice addition to the OS? Yes it is. But is it necessary? No. Does it make things easier with our every day task? No. So what's really the problem? All signs point to lack of innovation. Microsoft needs to realize that Computers and tablets aren't the same. Just because the iPad is successfuldoesn't mean that users would want a tablet based OS as a desktop OS. Where is the creativity in that? That's like throwing to successful ideas together and hope is turns out more successful. Windows 8 is already complete in my opinion which I mean the desktop part of it. Microsoft decided to throw in the whole tablet idea in hopes for it's operating system to sell much better. Yes I can handle change but I certainly wont settle for what there really trying to do.

Note: What could of been a nice addition to Windows 8 is the Windows store. A simple solution to offer apps just like apple instead of transform the start menu to a Windows XP lookalike UI. I honestly believe they could of made the metro screen more professional looking.

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Grand Master

freak180

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I'm confused. It does have a store, and couldn't look more different than XP if it tried.

You sure you've actually used it, past seeing how fast it boots?

Yes I used it. I have it install on my work computer and personal laptop. And what I meant was just the desktop alone is enough. Adding a Windows store instead if metro would be a good idea. Lose metro. But keep Windows store.

O RLY? ASUS Transformer disagrees.

Also, this (my friend's iPad):

Fail much

Thats an iPad.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

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Thats an iPad.

Yes, that is an iPad.... But look at what my friend did to it. And he isn't the only one. This comes from James Kendrick:

jk-post-pc-system.jpeg?tag=content;siu-container

What do both of these iPads look like to you?

Tablets ARE PCs!

Experienced

br0adband

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Not a bad post overall but, you made one fatal flaw like so many others do and said this:

Microsoft needs to realize that Computers and tablets aren't the same.

Do you really honestly in your heart believe that Microsoft, a company that has spent over $2 trillion in its corporate history doing nothing but research and development towards designed operating systems for personal computers, actually doesn't know the difference?

Your post, like so many others, is based on an assumption which is thus:

"Metro is all we're going to get with Windows 8, like it or not, so I guess I'm stuck with it and I better get used to the idea."

You really do come across with that specific assumption whether you're realizing it or not. Computers ARE moving towards being touch-operated devices - it doesn't matter if you like it right now, liked it a decade ago, plan to learn to like it in the near future, or hate it with every fiber of your being. This is simply the truth, and Microsoft is not going to sit on its hands and knees and keep funneling billions into R&D only to get to the party late like they did many years ago with Internet Explorer - originally Microsoft, even Bill Gates himself in an interview, made the mistake of dismissing the importance of the Internet way back in the mid-1990s just as Windows 95 was about to be released.

That mistake in judgement crippled them for many years, but they got over it.

Now, with touch-enabled touch-based control aspects of operating systems and "apps" upon us - even if you don't own a device that is truly touch capable - they're not going to wait and try to play catch up again.

This time, they're going to create their own paradigm shift and simply "start over" in many respects, and we as end users have two choices:

1) Stick with Windows 7, which will now be fully supported well into 2022 - that's 10 freakin' years from now - with updates and security patches till then, comfortable in what you've known and understood for potentially decades now as "Windows" and how the old paradigm operates.

Or...

2) Get on board and literally touch the future of personal computer operating systems. It's that simple, seriously.

I've been using pen and touch-enabled devices for over 20 years now and I can say that I'm extremely pleased with Microsoft making a very tough decision with Windows 8 and saying "Ok, this is how things are going to be done, get on board or... well, there's always Windows 7 and even Vista and XP if you're stubborn."

I even ordered a used Dell Latitude XT Tablet PC (pure capacitive touch screen as well as pen enabled too) the other day because I want to do Metro app development (got some great ideas for apps) and I'm not even a programmer at all - haven't coded anything since roughly 1982 when I wrote some BASIC programs on a Tandy 100 "laptop" computer.

This new potential has inspired me to at least give it a go, even if I end up getting nowhere at all, and it's because of what the Metro UI brings to the tablet. Sure we've had touch based smartphones for several years now, and we've had Tablet PCs for a decade plus, but the difference is a) smartphones are too small to be of any serious use for real work, etc, and b) Tablet PCs for the past decade or so have (from a majority perspective) been resistive screens with pen/stylus control.

Now, we get to finally do things with the best pointer and input system ever created: our fingers and the power of touch.

I'm all for it... who's with me? :laugh:

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Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
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Do you really honestly in your heart believe that Microsoft, a company that has spent over $2 trillion in its corporate history doing nothing but research and development towards designed operating systems for personal computers, actually doesn't know the difference?

You realize you're talking about the company that thought a desktop UI was a great idea on tablets, right?

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

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You realize you're talking about the company that thought a desktop UI was a great idea on tablets, right?

They were also balls deep into the development of Vista, and it was too much at the time to develop anything else for them.

Experienced

br0adband

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You realize you're talking about the company that thought a desktop UI was a great idea on tablets, right?

It WAS and still IS a great idea on tablets that utilize pen/stylus input - in professional situations, I see ThinkPad tablet models near constantly used primarily with pen/stylus input, especially in medical situations. In warehouses across the US I see Fujitsu tablet products, again with pen/stylus input. You either get the pen/stylus paradigm or you don't - I'm not here to convince you or sway anyone of that, I'm speaking from 20+ years of using such devices in a vast number of situations and fields where they are by far the best possible method for a user interface that can't tolerate a full blown clamshell style laptop but a convertible model becomes invaluable.

(and yes, it's still awesome in non-professional situations too when you know how to make the best possibile use of pen/stylus enabled hardware. Not everyone is proficient with the usage of such hardware, but when you find someone that is, you can be blown away by just how fast - insanely fast - you can do things on a pen/stylus enabled device with some practice)

NOW we finally have useful and not incredibly insanely expensive true touch capable hardware (because of capacitive screens) that is the new paradigm: Vista and Windows 7 came out - as the poster above just noted - at the crest of the "touch wave" that's now rolling in. Apple is focusing on iOS for their mobile devices and perhaps, just perhaps in the next 2 generations of their desktop and even laptop hardware - note I'm being very specific there and NOT saying their mobile devices like the iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad - we'll see them make the jump and put a capacitive screen in a desktop iMac or laptop MacBook Pro.

It's going to happen sooner or later.

Now we've got Microsoft making their move with Windows 8 - and again the majority of people are focusing solely on Metro METRO MeTrO MEtRO metro mETRO and all the crap they can focus on it. If you knew or you know anything about Microsoft you'd know that during the phases they're going through right now with the Developer and Consumer Previews, they are in a massive state of flux with this OS.

The reason they put it out there is so people will offer up comments. In the past, with a fairly limited number of people with personal computers in the world, Microsoft kept the beta and testing programs closed because of the fact the sheer amount of potentially useful feedback was quite small - only truly "hardcore" enthusiasts were part of those beta and testing programs, mostly by invite only because someone else that was "hardcore" invited you into the program thinking you could offer some useful input.

Contrast the world of 10 years ago to right now: in March 2002, the Internet was still gaining traction, Facebook and Twitter didn't exist, Google was just getting rolling, Internet access on cell phones ('cause they sure as hell weren't "smart" in those days) was very limited and quite slow, phones that did offer such access were almost always Pocket PC-powered or even some Palm devices (the Treo and others), and while a great number of people did own personal computers, it really wasn't all that many.

Now today all that has changed in seriously dramatic ways. In 2002 there probably weren't even 800 million computers in use in the span of the entire year. In 2011, Facebook itself clocked in 800 million members and it's still growing. Yes a lot of those are companies and other such organizations and not just pure individuals, the point holds:

The world today is a vastly different place and the number of people that own not only personal computers but laptops and smartphones and now touch-powered slate-factor tablets is magnitudes greater than in 2002.

Microsoft is doing what they think is best, and they're committed to at least having Metro for touch-enabled devices that are not only on the market already but for devices that are coming. As I've stated many times in other posts, I am running the Windows 8 Consumer Preview, have had it running since 20 minutes after the ISO finished downloading which took 15 minutes after the first ISO link went live on the morning of February 29th, and I don't have a single issue or gripe with it so far.

Why?

Because I know it's not what's going to be the finished product, not even close at this point.

Believe it, don't believe it, whatever. Microsoft knows a lot more about this stuff than any of us around here (save for maybe Brandon Live since he's part of the team at Microsoft and is helping to create Windows 8 itself), and it's not a problem for me.

There's a difference between constructive criticism when you find something legitimately wrong, aka a bug, a glitch, etc.

But when you spit out "I don't like it" or anything even remotely similar like "Oh, well, in Windows (x) we did it this way, and now in Windows 8 they want me/us to do it this way... and that's wrong" those are all subjective personal opinions and don't mean Jack Squat in the big picture.

There's nothing wrong with Windows 8 right now save for the bugs and glitches - it works just fine.

It's the people that aren't getting it. Well, not all of them. ;)

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migo

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If you're talking about how you don't like how something has been implemented, and how you think it could be done better, that's one thing, and it's fine. If, on the other hand, you're saying metro is terrible for desktops and MS should reverse everything they've done, you should most definitely get bashed for it.

Grand Master

giantpotato

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I agree with you - people should be able to have an opinion without being labelled. Sadly, that isn't how society works.

Actually, I'm not saying it's right, but that is how society works. You say you opinion and others will almost immediately put a label on you, whether it's democrat, republic, religious nut, anti-gay, fanboy etc. etc.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

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That is just Tablet with keyboard in front it, it doesn't make it Desktop. Sorry.

Hahaha. Now why do you suppose Metro plays nice with a keyboard and mouse? Now do you see why Microsoft wants a unifying UX?

Grand Master

freak180

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Hahaha. Now why do you suppose Metro plays nice with a keyboard and mouse? Now do you see why Microsoft wants a unifying UX?

Keyboard yes but Mouse no. Using the mouse with metro is just horrible imo. Just scrolling through the weather app is laughable.

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migo

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i on the other hind find metro very usable with a mouse and keyboard, myabe im wierd but i can do things quicker with metro rather than troll thru the start menu and atleast i can pin things to it =]

Same, good for touch doesn't mean bad for kb & mouse - Fitt's Law still applies.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

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Same, good for touch doesn't mean bad for kb & mouse - Fitt's Law still applies.

Good for touch will mean inefficient usage of screen space when you have a precise pointing device. And while bigger targets are easier to acquire, Microsoft is positioning UI elements so that they are most usable for touch, which results in greater distances for the mouse cursor to travel. You see context menus and options disappearing (the easiest screen position to get to is the one directly under the cursor). Additionally, Microsoft is getting rid of buttons wherever they are not needed for touch screens, like the Zoom buttons in the PDF-Reader. And, because most touch screens are relatively small compared to the desktop monitors we're used to, Microsoft is saving space by hiding even basic UI elements unless you right-click first, resulting in further inefficiencies using the interface. Of course, personally, what keeps me from being even slightly interested in Metro is the fullscreen single-tasking paradigm it forces on you. Metro Snap doesn't even work on my laptop, and on my desktop it is far too inflexible with only two programs at a time and both at only one of two sizes. All in all, it's a regression from the desktop interface I'm used to.

Of course, it's much better designed than some of the hypercomplex interfaces Microsoft used to push out on the desktop, and is a fine tablet UI I'm sure, but, honestly, if I want to be using a well-designed tablet UI, I'll just use my iPad.

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