review Windows 8 CP on a Tablet Review

[+Warwagon MVC]

Thanks I'm just tired of these squares here thinking one size can fit everyone and that we should get use to it, well I don't have to.

What I don't understand, is that if the "Desktop" is as dead as they would like to think it's going to be, and if everyone is going to be moving to tablets, then why can't they just leave the desktop the **** alone for users that actually want a desktop as their main machine?

[Motoko.]

What I don't understand, is that if the "Desktop" is as dead as they would like to think it's going to be, and if everyone is going to be moving to tablets, then why can't they just leave the desktop the **** alone for users that actually want a desktop as their main machine?

Because there's no money in making the correct decision, they're forcing everyones hand to pick up a tablet and deal with it because its profitable on the hardware and apps front.

[rfirth]

then you realize tablets are incapable of running x86 software (which constitutes about 99.9% of all the software you WANT to use)

Then you realize that Windows 8 supports x86 tablets and therefore is completely capable of running x86 software... don't want ARM tablet, buy x86-64 tablet.

And in Windows 8, you don't have to use chopsticks. Forks, knifes, and spoons are still supported. You still have the same tools to manipulate the food on your screen. And the steak you want? It's the same steak. It's just a little bigger so it covers your entire plate. Apparently, though, it wasn't cooked to your standards, so you decided to go Gordon Ramsay on it.

[simplezz]

Video Response

Yes I know I accidentally opened up movie maker instead, I was actually behind the camera reaching at the screen, off center.

This illustrates the core of the problem with Windows 8. It's just so darn long winded and cumbersome compared with its predecessor, even with touch.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Then you realize that Windows 8 supports x86 tablets and therefore is completely capable of running x86 software... don't want ARM tablet, buy x86-64 tablet.

But if he wants to run all his x86 apps why would he ever want to run them on a tablet? most apps aren't great when using your finger.

[Motoko.]

Then you realize that Windows 8 supports x86 tablets and therefore is completely capable of running x86 software... don't want ARM tablet, buy x86-64 tablet.

And in Windows 8, you don't have to use chopsticks. Forks, knifes, and spoons are still supported. You still have the same tools to manipulate the food on your screen. And the steak you want? It's the same steak. It's just a little bigger so it covers your entire plate. Apparently, though, it wasn't cooked to your standards, so you decided to go Gordon Ramsay on it.

Nope.jpg

Forks, knifes, and spoons are gimped. Ask yourself which manufacturer will be paid more to go ARM if MS is supporting a version of Windows 8 specifically for ARM? There may be a few x86 options but they won't be attractive options consumers will be satisfied with. MS is going full swing into ARM with an extreme focus on Metro apps for this very reason. Plus x86 apps are inconvenient on a tablet.

[rfirth]

But if he wants to run all his x86 apps why would he ever want to run them on a tablet? most apps aren't great when using your finger.

First he criticizes Windows 8 tablets because he can't run x86 software on it. Then you criticize saying "why would anyone ever want to do that?"?

Because many tablets can be docked with a keyboard and used as a laptop or desktop. You shouldn't need two separate devices for a single task. Two devices to be purchased? Hauled around?

Nope.jpg

Forks, knifes, and spoons are gimped. Ask yourself which manufacturer will be paid more to go ARM if MS is supporting a version of Windows 8 specifically for ARM? There will be a few x86 options but they won't be attractive options consumers will be satisfied with, MS is going full swing into ARM with an extreme focus on Metro apps for this very reason. Plus x86 apps are inconvenient on a tablet.

Metro apps are platform independent... and it's a free market [not the Windows Store, free market capitalism]. If people want x86 tablets, they [OEMs] will make x86 tablets.

[+Warwagon MVC]

First he criticizes Windows 8 tablets because he can't run x86 software on it. Then you criticize saying "why would anyone ever want to do that?"?

Because many tablets can be docked with a keyboard and used as a laptop or desktop.

So then he has to also carry around a keyboard?

[rfirth]

So then he has to also carry around a keyboard?

You have to carry around a keyboard on your laptop too. Problem? It's a universal device. If you want a laptop experience, dock it with a keyboard. When you want a tablet device, leave the keyboard at home. In tablet mode, you probably want to use Metro apps more. Laptop mode, maybe more desktop.

To be clear, I don't mean a completely separate wireless keyboard. I mean a keyboard that physically attaches to the tablet to form a laptop. There are several Android tablets on the market right now that do this.

[mrp04]

Video Response

Yes I know I accidentally opened up movie maker instead, I was actually behind the camera reaching at the screen, off center.

You can't be serious. First problem you already admitted to, you're swiping and tapping too many times.

Start Menu

• To get to the start menu with classic: tap the small button on the screen
  
• To get to the start screen with Metro on a real W8 Metro tablet: Tap the hardware start button under the screen
  

To launch a commonly used program

• Classic: Tap start, tap program. Both are pretty small icons
  
• Metro: Press hardware start button, tap BIG tile. Easy.
  

Searching for programs in the start menu while using a keyboard (which you did in the video)

• Classic: Press start (on screen on physical button) and type
  
• Metro: Press start (corner of screen or physical button) and type. Same thing.
  

To use all programs

• Classic: Press start, press all programs. Good luck tapping the correct thing with your finger (like you showed in your own video)
  
• Metro: Press start, swipe up from bottom, tap all programs. Easily tap the correct program. One more "step" but still far easier
  

Control Panel WHILE PINNED to the front of the start menu/screen, like you have in your start menu

• Classic: Press Start, Press Control panel
  
• Metro: Press Start, Press control panel
  

Please now, how exactly is classic shell better?

Now, compare these things using Windows 7/classic interface to Windows 8 Interface. See which is easier using just your fingers. I don't think classic shell reverts ALL these changes, though.

Change volume on screen

• Classic: Tap little volume icon and grab little slider and move it
  
• Metro: Swipe in from right, tap settings, press and drag (one action) on volume button. Very big, very easy to use with fingers.
  

Connect to a wifi network

• Classic: Tap little wifi icon, tap the network you want to connect to, and press connect. All small UI elements made for a mouse
  
• Metro: Tap little wifi icon or swipe in from side->settings->network, tap the network you want to connect to and press connect. Big, easy to use with fingers.
  

Change screen brightness

• Classic: Tap battery icon, press more power options, drag little screen brightness slider. Very annoying.
  
• Metro: Swipe in from side, press settings, tap and drag (one action) the brightness slider. Easy.
  

Face it, EVERYTHING about the metro interface is WAY better for tablets than the classic UI. Everything also works great on desktops. I'm using the CP on my desktop with zero issues. I never use metro apps on my desktop and it works just fine that way. The start screen is MORE useful than the start menu. I can press start and type in both, but in Windows 8 I can press start and check all sorts of notifications such as the current weather, then press start again and be back to the desktop where I was.

[MorganX]

Yes and they also have an iPad model / version which drops you out of the tablet interface and back to the desktop :p

For this reason, ARM Tablets may do better than expected if meaningful Metro Apps become available fairly soon.

[MorganX]

Lol, this is funny. Unlike those who would believe Metro on the desktop is flawless. Microsoft knows it is not. Their implementation shows they clearly struggled with what to do.

MS knows they made a mess on the desktop but they must do it. They are gambling that there's more potential tablet buyers that will buy tablets, phones, and Metro PCs than what will be classified as workstation users. They are actually probably correct.

As long as there is a Windows 7 SP2, I have not real problem with it at this time. MS doesn't care if Enterprises stick with 7, it's money to MS. 3 years from now they will care as EA agreements will suffer as enterprises with an EA will own rights to Windows 7 forever and will not need to keep the OS portion of the agreement if they stick with Windows 7 beyond that.

The desktop can go away for the Tablet (data consuming on-the-go) market. For most workstation and productivity workers, I just can't see 2 Windows and the kludgy time consuming window management sufficing.

It just doesn't get easier than - minimize or x close for multitasking environments. Tried and proven. Even apps like Photoshop, InDesign, Expressioin Web, require multiple windows for efficeint use with resources outside the app. Unless drag and drop will give way to cumbersome time consuming searches.

This one is tough to call, it will take a couple years to know if MS' gamble pays off, unless it fails quickly. It will not succeed quickly on the desktop, but no major OS release does. It's just logistically not possible.

[PGHammer]

Why we hate Windows 8? Because you sit there with a Desktop Operating System, being forced to use a UI designed for a phone/tablet, but at the same time you cannot just slap it onto a tablet and use it there, because then you realize tablets are incapable of running x86 software (which constitutes about 99.9% of all the software you WANT to use) and that the desktop functionality is nothing but a fancy prelude to the startup of "Microsoft Office for ARM" or Angry Birds.

Basically Windows 8 is the equivalent of being invited over to your dad and his new Asian wife. She serves you this really strange Asian dish involving raw fish that while probably being really good for you, just doesn't taste very appealing at all, especially not compared to that wonderful steak you had last time you visited. To add to the issue you also have to eat with chopsticks. It's not that there's anything wrong with chopsticks, but since you're not born in Asia, you'd rather use a fork. So you excuse yourself and go to the kitchen to fetch a fork, however when you return, your dad slaps you on the hand and tells you to stop being so rude to your new stepmother and use the goddamn chopsticks.

Thus you're forced to sit there, clumsily plucking up grains of rice and trying to make the best of the distasteful raw fish, while of course making a mess all over yourself in the process. Silently you cast angry glances at your father, hoping he will notice your dissatisfaction, but he just proceeds to completely ignore you while talking about how wonderful his wife's cooking is and how everybody should be eating this each every day. And at that moment you realize there's nothing you can do but pray that next time you visit, your dad will be the one doing the cooking, reminiscing about those delicious meals he made in the past as well as that wonderful steak he cooked last time.

P.S. I love Asian food and chopsticks but not Windows 8

In short, you want to niche-ify Windows into keyboard-and-mouse exclusivity *because* you're happy in your niche and want no part of leaving it.

Microsoft's dilemma is that the keyboard-and-mouse niche is seeing flat, if not declining, sales on a new-hardware basis. (Even the detractors admit this.)

On the other hand, if Microsoft breaks backward-compatibility with applications, that would actually be WORSE than the radical UI that is Metro. (The Metro UI is ground-breaking in that desktop applications work the same as they always have - same applies to desktop gaming.)

The detractors would apparently be quite happy with another five (if not seven) year gap between Windows 7 and Microsoft's next operating system aimed at the entire user base. (Basically, it's Windows XP all over again.)

However, in this case, it's the same reason why hardware sales for desktops have largely been flat - if not in decline; it's like "What's the case for upgrading?"

The brouhaha over Windows 8 appears (at least to me) to be an exercise in excuse-making - nobody wants to move out of their "comfort zone".

[migo]

What I don't understand, is that if the "Desktop" is as dead as they would like to think it's going to be, and if everyone is going to be moving to tablets, then why can't they just leave the desktop the **** alone for users that actually want a desktop as their main machine?

Because it's actually better. I use Windows 8 CP on a netbook, I can't make use of any Metro apps because of the screen resolution. Windows 8 desktop works better for me than Windows 7. All the functions I actually want are in the right click menu, I don't have to navigate anything to get to them, they're just there. Guess what? I send usage data to MS for every version of the OS I've used, and each time they've made changes that take some of my wishes into account. Many other people do that as well.

Windows 8 is better than Windows 7. Period. You're just someone who dislikes change, so you're making up reasons why you think the change is bad.

[Dot Matrix]

All this brouhaha is about to get even more heated after the RC brings more changes to smooth things out. Brace yourselves. Metro is coming! :D

[BeerFan]

The changes that the RC brings will not be enough to settle the brouhaha over negative Win8 sentiments. (and yes, that's the 3rd time the word "brouhaha" has been used in this thread. haha)

When Microsoft released Windows 2000, I liked it and the direction things were moving.

When MS released Windows XP, I loved it and the direction things were going.

When MS released Vista, I loved the idea and loved the OS once the bugs were worked out and the industry caught up.

When MS released 7, I declared it their best product ever, and really liked the direction things were heading.

Since MS released Win8 CP, I strongly dislike it and the direction things are heading.

People who say "Metro is the future. Adapt or die" need to understand that there is also a flip side to that coin. If MS isn't hugely successful in convincing people to not only adapt, but wholeheartedly adopt the new OS, they will see a large negative impact to their market share. Sadly, my money is on the latter.

[migo]

If they don't make changes, they'll see a huge negative impact on their marketshare. More iPads are sold than any one PC manufacturer sells laptops, that's going to keep growing. If MS doesn't change Windows, Windows will be a has-been OS, only used for legacy purposes.

Development on Windows has already stagnated, you're just seeing rehashes of software that was innovative 10 years ago, and clones of it. Productivity software is in the same state as video games on PCs and consoles. Sequilitis. The true innovation is happening on mobile phones, it's happening on tablets. Software is what kept Windows ahead of Mac OS and Linux for more than a decade, but with all the fresh, innovative software coming out for iPads, Windows will end up just being used for particular niche functions the way Macs were in the 90s.

Apple disrupted the market, quite unintentionally really, but they did disrupt it. Microsoft has to change to have any chance at all of keeping up. If they don't, Windows PC sales will dwindle like like Nintendo console sales did from the NES down to the GameCube. Each successive version of Windows will have less sales than the previous version, as more people find they don't need what Windows was good at, and they find that the iPad suits their needs better.

The other thing Apple has done is provided best in class experience for $500. A best in class PC costs over $2,000. A $500 iPad provides the same experience as an $800 one, just with less storage. Now you can either spend $500 for a best in class experience with the iPad, or a $500 worst in class experience for a PC. What do you think most people, who just want a device to do something with and could be happy (if price were no object) with either an iPad or a PC, will want to go for?

Microsoft needs an answer, Windows 8 is that answer, and while it won't be an iPad killer, it'll be a good enough answer for them to stay in the game, keep improving and push Apple to keep improving as well.

[Dot Matrix]

If they don't make changes, they'll see a huge negative impact on their marketshare. More iPads are sold than any one PC manufacturer sells laptops, that's going to keep growing. If MS doesn't change Windows, Windows will be a has-been OS, only used for legacy purposes.

Development on Windows has already stagnated, you're just seeing rehashes of software that was innovative 10 years ago, and clones of it. Productivity software is in the same state as video games on PCs and consoles. Sequilitis. The true innovation is happening on mobile phones, it's happening on tablets. Software is what kept Windows ahead of Mac OS and Linux for more than a decade, but with all the fresh, innovative software coming out for iPads, Windows will end up just being used for particular niche functions the way Macs were in the 90s.

Apple disrupted the market, quite unintentionally really, but they did disrupt it. Microsoft has to change to have any chance at all of keeping up. If they don't, Windows PC sales will dwindle like like Nintendo console sales did from the NES down to the GameCube. Each successive version of Windows will have less sales than the previous version, as more people find they don't need what Windows was good at, and they find that the iPad suits their needs better.

The other thing Apple has done is provided best in class experience for $500. A best in class PC costs over $2,000. A $500 iPad provides the same experience as an $800 one, just with less storage. Now you can either spend $500 for a best in class experience with the iPad, or a $500 worst in class experience for a PC. What do you think most people, who just want a device to do something with and could be happy (if price were no object) with either an iPad or a PC, will want to go for?

Microsoft needs an answer, Windows 8 is that answer, and while it won't be an iPad killer, it'll be a good enough answer for them to stay in the game, keep improving and push Apple to keep improving as well.

This is exactly my thoughts. Whether people like it or not the need for change is there. The iPad disrupted things, and I for one, am happy Microsoft isn't laughing this one off. Those people that want Windows just remain the same are out of the loop.

[MorganX]

>>Software is what kept Windows ahead of Mac OS and Linux for more than a decade, but with all the fresh, innovative software coming out for iPads, Windows will end up just being used for particular niche functions the way Macs were in the 90s.<<

Are we talking enterprise or consumer? Software and usability kept/keeps Mac OS ahead of Linux. Price and an open hardware platform kept and will keep it ahead of Mac OS. Different business model. Apple's model has never been volume.

Change wasn't needed on the desktop, it was/is needed in the tablet/phone space. Actually, change was needed on the desktop for novice users who are the masses. It is the one shoe fits all approach on the desktop that has caused division. MS knows this, they do it for the common application architecture and for the masses, not necessarily because it is best for workstations. The desktop will be around for several years. When Adobe Creative Suite and Autocad go Metro, then you may start considering the desktop will go away.

The only real question is how annoying will it be and to how many.

The Enterprise is another story. And it absolutely can fail there. Server cannot. There's is heavy constant pressure to continually justify the Microsoft ecosystem and Google is present and lurking. There's a lot of political pressure to ditch Office, Windows, and MS Licensing and go with Google Apps and Linux. It isn't taking becuase of IT resistance. One major problematic release, and you will see change.

There must be compelling apps, quickly, or 8 will not be adopted in the Enterprise for years. If it is adopted, with the training costs, it will be years anyway before it unseats Windows 7. That's just the way it works.

[migo]

Consumer, obviously. Red Hat's making a killing in the business sector, but Linux is still worthless as a consumer solution (beyond providing a nice Kernel for better designed OSes).

The thing you're not getting is that the desktop is going to be used less and less now that tablets are in play. The only reason people used desktops for a while is because laptops were too expensive for not enough power. Given the choice between something portable and something not portable, people will take portable almost every time (screen size will factor in, but being able to dock and hook up to a TV solves that).

And the fact is innovation is happening on tablets, but isn't happening on traditional PCs. One reason I prefer browsing the web on my PlayBook is that I can double tap on text and have it zoom in on the text so I don't see the rest of the page, and can cleanly scroll down the page. No desktop browser lets me do that - zooming just changes the font size and makes everything re-flow. That's just one thing, but it shows that for the most part development has stagnated terribly on desktops. The last two actually significant usability innovations made in browsers were tabs in Opera ages ago, and integrating tabs into the title bar to save space in Chrome (which I was doing in Maxthon 2 years earlier). There are a few extensions here and there to streamline things, but not much is happening.

Let's look at games for a second, people complain so much that each year we just have the next version of a game we all know. Hardly anything new. Then look at smartphones and the iPad - tons of games that we haven't seen before, genres that have been dead on the PC and consoles are springing back to life, and people are playing them. If I want a space trading and combat sim, I can either play Escape Velocity Nova, that has been out for a decade, or I can look at X2/3 or Evochron which are excessively complex. Then look at iOS and Android, there are tons of games in the genre. You're seeing a revival of stuff that has been abandoned, and entirely new stuff that just isn't showing up. If you want to try that new software, you've got to get a smartphone. If it's too small for you, you've got to get a tablet (most likely an iPad).

That's the difference that iOS brings in compared to OSX vs Windows. OSX was lucky to get some of the same software Windows had, and rarely had anything exclusive. iOS has a ton of stuff that Windows doesn't, and an iPad costs $500. Most people can comfortably stick with whatever PC they already have, because the only software that requires a new PC is a rehash of what they already have. Spend $500 for a PC and get more of the same, or spend $500 on an iPad and get an entirely new and complementary experience. It's a no brainer.

Windows has to change. Microsoft doesn't need to make a separate tablet OS, they need to make the desktop attract innovative software development again.

[Pikey]

>>Software is what kept Windows ahead of Mac OS and Linux for more than a decade, but with all the fresh, innovative software coming out for iPads, Windows will end up just being used for particular niche functions the way Macs were in the 90s.<<

I'm not sure what this means? .. what 'fresh, innovative software' are we talking about that hasn't got a windows equivalent?

[Dot Matrix]

I'm not sure what this means? .. what 'fresh, innovative software' are we talking about that hasn't got a windows equivalent?

Mobile apps are the new hotness.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

What I don't understand, is that if the "Desktop" is as dead as they would like to think it's going to be, and if everyone is going to be moving to tablets, then why can't they just leave the desktop the **** alone for users that actually want a desktop as their main machine?

Nobody thinks desktops are dead. And certainly not laptops! (which are the vast majority of PCs today and will continue to be for some time). That's why for Windows 8 we invested in the desktop app experience (multi-mon features, ribbon, copy engine, new desktop APIs, etc) and didn't just leave it alone or deprecate it. It's why we've spent a huge amount of time refining the Start experience for keyboard and mouse users.

And don't confuse "desktop" (as in, desktop apps) with the desktop form factor. Desktop apps are used on every Windows 7 laptop, so the correlation is already broken before 8 even enters the picture. Metro style apps are meant to be great on tablets yes, but they're also meant to be great on desktops and laptops. While I still use primarily desktop apps at work (VS, command prompts, etc) on my dual-mon (30" + 24") workstation, at home even at my desktop I primarily live in the Metro style IE and apps like Mail (and occasionally, games, which are already all full-screen experiences). As the apps and ecosystem mature I expect that to only become more and more true. Right now there are very few apps and what you see is a very early preview of them. They will only get more powerful and plentiful, and eventually I think you'll find some you love and are happy to have :-)

[+Warwagon MVC]

Nobody thinks desktops are dead. And certainly not laptops! (which are the vast majority of PCs today and will continue to be for some time). That's why for Windows 8 we invested in the desktop app experience (multi-mon features, ribbon, copy engine, new desktop APIs, etc) and didn't just leave it alone or deprecate it. It's why we've spent a huge amount of time refining the Start experience for keyboard and mouse users.

And don't confuse "desktop" (as in, desktop apps) with the desktop form factor. Desktop apps are used on every Windows 7 laptop, so the correlation is already broken before 8 even enters the picture. Metro style apps are meant to be great on tablets yes, but they're also meant to be great on desktops and laptops. While I still use primarily desktop apps at work (VS, command prompts, etc) on my dual-mon (30" + 24") workstation, at home even at my desktop I primarily live in the Metro style IE and apps like Mail (and occasionally, games, which are already all full-screen experiences). As the apps and ecosystem mature I expect that to only become more and more true. Right now there are very few apps and what you see is a very early preview of them. They will only get more powerful and plentiful, and eventually I think you'll find some you love and are happy to have :-)

You passed the "I work at Microsoft Test". In that one post you manged to use the word "Experience" 3 times :laugh:

[Dot Matrix]

Nobody thinks desktops are dead. And certainly not laptops! (which are the vast majority of PCs today and will continue to be for some time). That's why for Windows 8 we invested in the desktop app experience (multi-mon features, ribbon, copy engine, new desktop APIs, etc) and didn't just leave it alone or deprecate it. It's why we've spent a huge amount of time refining the Start experience for keyboard and mouse users.

And don't confuse "desktop" (as in, desktop apps) with the desktop form factor. Desktop apps are used on every Windows 7 laptop, so the correlation is already broken before 8 even enters the picture. Metro style apps are meant to be great on tablets yes, but they're also meant to be great on desktops and laptops. While I still use primarily desktop apps at work (VS, command prompts, etc) on my dual-mon (30" + 24") workstation, at home even at my desktop I primarily live in the Metro style IE and apps like Mail (and occasionally, games, which are already all full-screen experiences). As the apps and ecosystem mature I expect that to only become more and more true. Right now there are very few apps and what you see is a very early preview of them. They will only get more powerful and plentiful, and eventually I think you'll find some you love and are happy to have :-)

Brandon, I have to say I'm absolutely in love with the weather app. Great to have! Looking forward to see what the rest of the apps will offer.