Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store

[Marshall Veteran]

+ 1

you don't need to say anything to anyone that is stabbing people.

what could his reasoning be? "i wasn't trying to kill them. just stab them in the arm?"

+1

Anyone that is engaging in an act of grave bodily harm on you or any other innocent person, there is no need for a warning. By most states law, you're justified in "eliminating the threat." You're going to have more trouble in court, but even if you have a halfway competent lawyer, you'll be deemed justifiable in your actions.

Depending on the circumstances, if this guy was say 15 feet from me, and not actively stabbing someone at that moment, I would offer him a warning. But if he was 15 feet away and engaging/stabbing someone at that moment, I would fire without warning.

Two reasons, I know my ability to shoot at certain distances and hit my intended target as I spend a lot of time at the range. Also, how am I to know if his next thrust of the knife would be the deciding factor between this innocent persons life being taken.

Edit: Also I use jacketed hollow point rounds that won't exit your intended target.

[tomasarson]

+1

Anyone that is engaging in an act of grave bodily harm on you or any other innocent person there is no need for a warning. By most states law, you're justified in "eliminating the threat." You're going to have more trouble in court, but even if you have a halfway competent lawyer, you'll be deemed justifiable in your actions.

Depending on the circumstances, if this guy was say 15 feet from me, and not actively stabbing someone at that moment, I would offer him a warning. But if he was 15 feet away and engaging/stabbing someone at that moment, I would fire without warning.

Two reasons, I know my ability to shoot at certain distances and hit my intended target as I spend a lot of time at the range. Also, how am I to know if his next thrust of the knife would be the deciding factor between this innocent persons life being taken.

Edit: Also I use jacketed hollow point rounds that won't exit your intended target.

agreed, that's why even if someone was in my house stealing my VCR i wouldn't want to shoot them hands down. i would give them a chance to be cool(unless they were coming at me.) a human life is worth way more than any piece of electronics. just like this story.

[Gerowen]

Here's one for you; how many homicides with firearms were committed during the day this guy used his gun for something useful, in the USA? The answer is approximately 80.

And here's another comment; once you've been aimed in the head with a gun while trying to help someone, your perspective on how wonderful they are might change. But I don't really expect most of you to understand, you're just children that haven't seen real life outside TV anyway.

I am a soldier and have faced death at the hands of others on several occasions, and firmly believe that every citizen who wants to and isn't insane or a convicted felon, should be allowed to carry. An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject.

[tomasarson]

I am a soldier and have faced death at the hands of others on several occasions, and firmly believe that every citizen who wants to and isn't insane or a convicted felon, should be allowed to carry. An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject.

-=\

as long as we're both on the same page about not killing the innocent. all people are the same. both are citizens.

because they don't want to carry guns (while maybe silly and maybe not) we're both just as equal.

i get it if you don't wan to have a gun. fine by me. but when you start telling me that i shouldn't or don't have the right, you become almost a joke.

[Gerowen]

-=\

as long as we're both on the same page about not killing the innocent. all people are the same. both are citizens.

because they don't want to carry guns (while maybe silly and maybe not) we're both just as equal.

i get it if you don't wan to have a gun. fine by me. but when you start telling me that i shouldn't or don't have the right, you become almost a joke.

Agreed.

[excalpius]

You sure do like to bash people don't you. "Insecure gun nuts" calling NRA members ignorant.

Btw what makes you think that because someone owns a gun it makes them "little insecure men"? Its called protecting yourself,

Truth.

Anyone who argues that they NEED to own a gun to "protect themselves" is paranoid and insecure. Thanks in large part to a media and gun lobby that makes money off selling fear, the truth of the situation has been lost.

And what is the truth? Simply that there is little or no chance you will EVER be in danger enough to ever need a gun to defend yourself or others within the borders of the United States.

These situations are so exceedingly rare that we only hear about a story like this one once every few YEARS. In a country of 311+ million people. Even in former gangland shooting zones, the real (rather than the perceived) danger has all but disappeared. And not because suddenly all the people "in the hood" are now armed and dangerous.

So the need for the security blanket of a personal firearm is based on an irrational fear...which is paranoia born of that fear and personal insecurity.

99.999999999% of American gun owners will NEVER have the occasion to use their weapon for other than target practice. And the majority that do accidentally shoot themselves, a family member, or commit suicide instead of actually protecting themselves or someone they love. Period.

But people who are afraid will latch on to anything (including manufactured "facts" paid for by the salesmen) to justify their irrational paranoia.

[+Eternal Tempest MVC]

This is partially @ excalpius - However based on your views, I know this will be I'll agree we disagree.

People are very opinionated on this topic, so going to say my piece and let it be that.

Criminals can get access to guns illegally, no laws going to change that.

It's legal to own a gun (with some limits, convicted felony, etc).

Another factor, The denser the population tends to equal more gun control people.

However, the sparser the population tends to equal more gun rights people, think about it, how many minutes will it be for police to respond in your city... vs the small sheriff office serving a entire county?

(This is just looking at the police protection angle).

And using the news for any gauge of society for anything is flawed (for and against) stories.

The news focus on that 1% non-normal events (no matter what it is) the problem is when they put the extremes in your face day after day, you get view gets jaded.

Also liberal biased new sources will push the anti-gun agenda when they can. (Flipside Conservative will push there's as well) - and people typically watch what the want to hear.

However, again, most people have a strong opinion and this won't sway someone who's already for or against.

[DocM]

+1

Anyone that is engaging in an act of grave bodily harm on you or any other innocent person, there is no need for a warning. By most states law, you're justified in "eliminating the threat." You're going to have more trouble in court, but even if you have a halfway competent lawyer, you'll be deemed justifiable in your actions.

Depending on the circumstances, if this guy was say 15 feet from me, and not actively stabbing someone at that moment, I would offer him a warning. But if he was 15 feet away and engaging/stabbing someone at that moment, I would fire without warning.

Ever hear of the Tueller Drill? In 1983 Sgt. Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City PD ran a series of reaction time experiments to establish a "Danger Zone" distance; he came up with an average of 21 feet. If the attacker is within that distance the average person won't have time to accurately fire before an attacker can approach and make contact, be it with a knife or whatever, Depending on their individual reaction time some people may have to shoot sooner. The Tueller Drill now an accepted training exercise.

Edit: Also I use jacketed hollow point rounds that won't exit your intended target.

My carry pieces are the SIG Sauer P250sc or P239, both .40 short-barreled subcompacts. I use the special Federal XM40HA 135 grain Tactical HST developed for DHS and ICE to use in their HK P2000sk undercover subcompacts. These are very unlikely to over-penetrate and injure an innocent, but have a near explosive hydrostatic shock effect. Not in the catalog, but some discounters like Walmart, chain sporting goods stores or mail order ammo suppliers carry production overruns but labeled JHP instead of HST .

[KingCracker]

Truth.

Anyone who argues that they NEED to own a gun to "protect themselves" is paranoid and insecure. Thanks in large part to a media and gun lobby that makes money off selling fear, the truth of the situation has been lost.

And what is the truth? Simply that there is little or no chance you will EVER be in danger enough to ever need a gun to defend yourself or others within the borders of the United States.

These situations are so exceedingly rare that we only hear about a story like this one once every few YEARS. In a country of 311+ million people. Even in former gangland shooting zones, the real (rather than the perceived) danger has all but disappeared. And not because suddenly all the people "in the hood" are now armed and dangerous.

So the need for the security blanket of a personal firearm is based on an irrational fear...which is paranoia born of that fear and personal insecurity.

99.999999999% of American gun owners will NEVER have the occasion to use their weapon for other than target practice. And the majority that do accidentally shoot themselves, a family member, or commit suicide instead of actually protecting themselves or someone they love. Period.

But people who are afraid will latch on to anything (including manufactured "facts" paid for by the salesmen) to justify their irrational paranoia.

Sorry but I don't live in a fantasy world. Crime happens, its better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have one. Where are you getting your numbers at? The majority of gun owners will shoot themselves,a family member or commit suicide? Really so How many is that out of 84 million legal gun owners 83 million will accidently shoot themselves,a family member or commit suicide? Yeah you're pulling things out of thin air.. 1,300 people commit suicide with guns every year vs 84 million gun owners. Very small number and considering they would use something else to kill them selves if they didn't have a gun anyway. In 2006 339 children died of accidental shooting vs 84 million legal gun owners, that's far far FAR less than the majority.

The only one manufacturing facts is you.

[DocM]

That's typical for the anti-gun crowd - they get some BS talking point from Brady or whatever (or make it up) figuring if they repeat it often enough it'll be believed.

[OTAU]

That's pretty crazy. We recently had something similar here Down Under with a shooting in a mall, crazy times.

[Gone]

Here's one for you; how many homicides with firearms were committed during the day this guy used his gun for something useful, in the USA? The answer is approximately 80.

And here's another comment; once you've been aimed in the head with a gun while trying to help someone, your perspective on how wonderful they are might change. But I don't really expect most of you to understand, you're just children that haven't seen real life outside TV anyway.

I was more nervous when I had somebody from the Bahrain military looking at me with their hand on their pistol at the chow hall than when I had some Afghan military actually point theirs at me. I think it was more scary knowing what not to expect than when the other guy was aiming at me from a guard tower. Anyway the guy in the chow hall ended up not doing anything.

Aren't firearms illegal in Finland anyway?

[DocM]

Finland guns article @ Wiki

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

[excalpius]

That's typical for the anti-gun crowd - they get some BS talking point from Brady or whatever (or make it up) figuring if they repeat it often enough it'll be believed.

The only people repeating one-off, non-representative events and propaganda sponsored by those that sell guns and make money from sale and their ownership are the people who constantly try to justify their complete surrender to fear.

No one here lives in a war zone.

And as I said earlier, I have no problem with well-trained and responsible people owning a pistol or rifle for home defense. Keeping it securely locked up keeps it out of the hands of children, casual visitors, and criminals and saves innocent lives.

[excalpius]

That's pretty crazy. We recently had something similar here Down Under with a shooting in a mall, crazy times.

As long as the mentally ill don't get proper help and can get their hands on weapons, free societies will have to deal with events like this.

[KingCracker]

+

The only people repeating one-off, non-representative events and propaganda sponsored by those that sell guns and make money from sale and their ownership are the people who constantly try to justify their complete surrender to fear.

No one here lives in a war zone.

And as I said earlier, I have no problem with well-trained and responsible people owning a pistol or rifle for home defense. Keeping it securely locked up keeps it out of the hands of children, casual visitors, and criminals and saves innocent lives.

And you have no problem calling well-trained and responsible people "gun nuts" "ignorant NRA members" and "insecure little men"

As long as the mentally ill don't get proper help and can get their hands on weapons, free societies will have to deal with events like this.

So what do you suppose we do? Not sell knives in stores anymore??

[excalpius]

My carry pieces are the SIG Sauer P250sc or P239, both .40 short-barreled subcompacts. I use the special Federal XM40HA 135 grain Tactical HST developed for DHS and ICE to use in their HK P2000sk undercover subcompacts. These are very unlikely to over-penetrate and injure an innocent, but have a near explosive hydrostatic shock effect.

Listen to yourself. You are making all the points I made (in general, and not referring to anyone here in particular) for me...

For example, you've stated in previous posts that you carry a gun because you are afraid you will be faced with another circumstance where you were on the scary end of a gun.

You've taken this fear to a level where it has become normal to you to publicly rationalize nonsense like "unlikely to over-penetrate and injure an innocent" as if people have different skin thickness based on situation or intent. Did you come up with those words, or are you parroting the marketing literature from people who have a consumer sales agenda you fell for?

In truth, because the odds are so infinitesimal that you would have been put in that situation in the first place (and I'm sincerely sorry that you were), the odds are now even more astronomical that you will ever find yourself in that situation again.

Of course, that is unless you actively seek out such situations, now that you feel the need to not be afraid at any cost...

But barring that irrational hypothetical reaction, you're already wasting a lot of time, money, and pretty juicy rationalizations just to make up for the fact that you had a very human reaction to a fear-inducing situation. This is and was NORMAL.

On a personal note, a little therapy would be a lot cheaper for you, more effective long term, and would reduce the potential risk you now pose to the rest of us.

Because for every 99 people like you who won't seek out a chance to assuage their fear through misguided action, there is one George Zimmerman. And no matter who was at fault in that situation, the truth is that if George hadn't been armed both of them would be alive to tell their story in court and we would have had a vastly improved chance to learn the truth of what really happened that rainy day.

Now, back to the general debate.

[excalpius]

And you have no problem calling well-trained and responsible people "gun nuts" "ignorant NRA members" and "insecure little men"

So what do you suppose we do? Not sell knives in stores anymore??

Yes, it is my position that there isn't a member of the NRA who isn't compensating for insecurity and fear, unless they are just cynically profiting from the insecurity and fear of others, of course.

Since no one is advocating the removal of all guns from the hands of citizens...not even me, please read my other comments...it is clear the positions the NRA takes are because they prey on the fear and cowardice of insecure men.

The NRA "leadership" are con-men and cowards.

Guns and knives are not equivalent. There are MANY different ways of dealing with a knife-wielding assailant, even in the grocery store. And all of them give us all the benefit of TIME.

Guns can make one bad decision FINAL in an instant. From suicide to jealous rage, the difference between having a loaded gun on hand vs. having a kitchen knife on hand is night and day.

Regardless, the core issue in that case is the mental illness of the person in question and how the US abandons the mentally ill to be homeless or worse.

These people, if they've fallen through the cracks, will get their hands on something to cause harm to themselves or others. If they get their hands on gun(s) we get Virginia Tech. If they can't, we get a lone nut in a grocery store with a knife.

Given the choice as a hypothetical unarmed civilian, I'd prefer my odds of crowning the grocery store nut with a glass baking tray than trying to use that tray to stop a bullet...

[KingCracker]

Yes, it is my position that there isn't a member of the NRA who isn't compensating for insecurity and fear, unless they are just cynically profiting from the insecurity and fear of others, of course.

Since no one is advocating the removal of all guns from the hands of citizens...not even me, please read my other comments...it is clear the positions the NRA takes are because they prey on the fear and cowardice of insecure men.

The NRA "leadership" are con-men and cowards.

Guns and knives are not equivalent. There are MANY different ways of dealing with a knife-wielding assailant, even in the grocery store. And all of them give us all the benefit of TIME.

Guns can make one bad decision FINAL in an instant. From suicide to jealous rage, the difference between having a loaded gun on hand vs. having a kitchen knife on hand is night and day.

Regardless, the core issue in that case is the mental illness of the person in question and how the US abandons the mentally ill to be homeless or worse.

These people, if they've fallen through the cracks, will get their hands on something to cause harm to themselves or others. If they get their hands on gun(s) we get Virginia Tech. If they can't, we get a lone nut in a grocery store with a knife.

Given the choice as a hypothetical unarmed civilian, I'd prefer my odds of crowning the grocery store nut with a glass baking tray than trying to use that tray to stop a bullet...

I've came to the conclusion that you're just a troll, you claim you dont mind if people own guns then you bash the same people that you said you dont mind them owning guns by calling them insecure among other things. You sit here act as if the gun was in the hands of the bad guy and go on to say you'd rather be unarmed and beat the guy to death with a piece of glass, internet tough guy at his finest.

[excalpius]

I've came to the conclusion that you're just a troll, you claim you dont mind if people own guns then you bash the same people that you said you dont mind them owning guns by calling them insecure among other things. You sit here act as if the gun was in the hands of the bad guy and go on to say you'd rather be unarmed and beat the guy to death with a piece of glass, internet tough guy at his finest.

Since you apparently can't win this debate through the logic and reason of your arguments, you've resorted to insults.

Your forfeit and surrender is hereby noted.

[ILikeTobacco]

Since you apparently can't win this debate through the logic and reason of your arguments, you've resorted to insults.

Your forfeit and surrender is hereby noted.

By that logic, you forfeit and surrendered 3 pages ago when you stopped using logic and starting making up bs facts. Your forfeit and surrender is hereby noted.

[excalpius]

By that logic, you forfeit and surrendered 3 pages ago when you stopped using logic and starting making up bs facts. Your forfeit and surrender is hereby noted.

Then challenge my facts with facts, and my opinions with your own!

Otherwise, you're currently using an "I'm rubber and you're glue" defense strategy...and no one is going to fall for that. 8P

[DocM]

Listen to yourself. You are making all the points I made (in general, and not referring to anyone here in particular) for me...

For example, you've stated in previous posts that you carry a gun because you are afraid you will be faced with another circumstance where you were on the scary end of a gun.

>

Now, back to the general debate.

The part you quoted was my reply to Marshall saying he used JHP's, not to you, and was to explain my choice of HST's - a next-gen technology.

Also, it's not fear but pragmatism There is a large number of violent sociopaths out there and some of us live in cluster zones; parts of the metro areas of Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, LA etc. By the time the cops arrive to a call (assuming you have time to make one) it's all over and someone's going to be on the ground, and I'm going to do my utmost to assure it's the other guy. Don't like it? Too bad.

[Yorak]

All you liberal pansies amuse me. Look, a gun saved lives instead of taking them. Do not be angry about this. Rejoice and be glad.

[excalpius]

There is a large number of violent sociopaths out there and some of us live in cluster zones; parts of the metro areas of Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, LA etc. By the time the cops arrive to a call ...

Fear. Irrational. Unreasonable. Unrealistic. Fear.