Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store

[excalpius]

All you liberal pansies amuse me.

Bravely and intelligently spoken. Your argument is as convincing as it is adult...

[Memphis]

Listen to yourself. You are making all the points I made (in general, and not referring to anyone here in particular) for me...

For example, you've stated in previous posts that you carry a gun because you are afraid you will be faced with another circumstance where you were on the scary end of a gun.

You've taken this fear to a level where it has become normal to you to publicly rationalize nonsense like "unlikely to over-penetrate and injure an innocent" as if people have different skin thickness based on situation or intent. Did you come up with those words, or are you parroting the marketing literature from people who have a consumer sales agenda you fell for?

In truth, because the odds are so infinitesimal that you would have been put in that situation in the first place (and I'm sincerely sorry that you were), the odds are now even more astronomical that you will ever find yourself in that situation again.

Of course, that is unless you actively seek out such situations, now that you feel the need to not be afraid at any cost...

But barring that irrational hypothetical reaction, you're already wasting a lot of time, money, and pretty juicy rationalizations just to make up for the fact that you had a very human reaction to a fear-inducing situation. This is and was NORMAL.

On a personal note, a little therapy would be a lot cheaper for you, more effective long term, and would reduce the potential risk you now pose to the rest of us.

Because for every 99 people like you who won't seek out a chance to assuage their fear through misguided action, there is one George Zimmerman. And no matter who was at fault in that situation, the truth is that if George hadn't been armed both of them would be alive to tell their story in court and we would have had a vastly improved chance to learn the truth of what really happened that rainy day.

Now, back to the general debate.

I don't defend docm on much, but he's spot on on what he's saying, perhaps you should actually research what he's saying their.

[Memphis]

Fear. Irrational. Unreasonable. Unrealistic. Fear.

fear yes, irrational no. check my post history, had it happen to me in a town with decades between murders.

[Marshall Veteran]

Fear. Irrational. Unreasonable. Unrealistic. Fear.

Of course it's fear, thanks for pointing out the obvious. In today's society, there is plenty to fear...everywhere. I fear for the safety of my wife and daughter, and lastly myself. If I'm ever put in such a predicament that I'm forced to use lethal force, I will do so without hesitation. If I have to choose between the lives of my loved ones and some psycho, he's going down. Wouldn't you protect your family in some manner in such a situation, perhaps with your fists? So what is the difference between you using your fists and I using a gun, especially taking into account the disparity of force? I have news for you, your fists can cause death also.

As a concealed carry permit holder, I hope I never have to even draw my weapon, let alone fire it. I consider it a tool, only to be used in a life or death situation.

[DocM]

As a concealed carry permit holder, I hope I never have to even draw my weapon, let alone fire it. I consider it a tool, only to be used in a life or death situation.

^^---- THIS!!

Fear. Irrational. Unreasonable. Unrealistic. Fear.

D-E-N-I-A-L, and I don't mean a river in Egypt.

[excalpius]

Of course it's fear, thanks for pointing out the obvious. In today's society, there is plenty to fear...everywhere. I fear for the safety of my wife and daughter, and lastly myself. If I'm ever put in such a predicament that I'm forced to use lethal force, I will do so without hesitation. If I have to choose between the lives of my loved ones and some psycho, he's going down. Wouldn't you protect your family in some manner in such a situation, perhaps with your fists? So what is the difference between you using your fists and I using a gun, especially taking into account the disparity of force? I have news for you, your fists can cause death also.

As a concealed carry permit holder, I hope I never have to even draw my weapon, let alone fire it. I consider it a tool, only to be used in a life or death situation.

You have no legitimate, realistic reason to be so afraid. Violent crime has never been at a lower rate in the history of mankind than it is today. Human life has never been held to a higher value than it is today. Someone who kills someone else has never been more likely to be caught and convicted for that crime than ever before today.

And while there are places in the third world where it would be wiser to be protected, this statistic is true the world over...but especially in Europe, the US, the UK, and Canada.

But the truth is that YOU are not in any real danger. Not from criminals, not from terrorists. You never have been.

So you are NOT carrying a concealed weapon to protect yourself or your family. You are carrying it because you are afraid of...nothing.

You have been suckered in by the scare tactics of politicians and the media and gun and security system salesmen. And that is a whole lot of nothing to be really afraid of.

In other words, if they told you the sky was falling, you'd buy a concrete umbrella...just in case.

[excalpius]

fear yes, irrational no. check my post history, had it happen to me in a town with decades between murders.

So the entire country should have more guns on hand than it does citizens because of your anecdotal bad experience? I'm sorry that something terrible happened to you. But the truth is that you are the rarest of exceptions, not the rule. To argue otherwise is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.

The longer we live our lives the more likely that we will live to see terrible things happen to us and the ones we love (e.g. cancer, suicides, car accidents, etc.). That's just life. But to argue that we should spend every day of our entire lives in irrational fear of something as terribly rare as winning the lottery is missing the entire point of being alive in the first place.

As for me, I've seen the man behind the curtain and I've followed the money. I know why they are playing people as saps and suckers to line their own pockets. And as long as you let them play you, you're still the ignorant, frightened children they take you for.

But I'm a man. And I'm not afraid.

[excalpius]

I don't defend docm on much, but he's spot on on what he's saying, perhaps you should actually research what he's saying their.

Despite the wishful thinking of some of the posters, I actually have done the research. Deep enough that I know which fake statistics were manufactured by NRA-sponsored organizations, etc. But don't just take my word for it. Do the research yourself! Instead of taking the word of companies and organizations with a hard cash agenda, why not take a moment to actually dig deeper, as I have done?

PS You mean "there" instead of "their" above.

[ILikeTobacco]

Then challenge my facts with facts, and my opinions with your own!

Otherwise, you're currently using an "I'm rubber and you're glue" defense strategy...and no one is going to fall for that. 8P

We already did and you dismissed everything with your conspiracy theories. Fact: Violent crimes rates are going down. Fact: Gun ownership is going up. While the two are no necessarily related, it goes against everything you have been saying. According to you, violent crimes go up with gun ownership. Fact: DocM gave you the statistics and facts and you dismissed them without anything other than your opinions and conspiracy theories. Fact: Until you come up with an argument that isn't based on opinions and nothing else, you lost the argument here.

BTW, you keep saying do your own research and while people post hard evidence here. You have yet to show a single fact that backs you up.

[ILikeTobacco]

Someone who kills someone else has never been more likely to be caught and convicted for that crime than ever before today.

Dumbest thing you have said so far. Nobody cares if the person that murdered them is caught and convicted because they are DEAD. The idea is to prevent this outcome all together, not get justice after that fact. Are you that detached from reality that you don't realize life isn't a video game? You don't respawn and get an achievement for killing the person that killed you. You are dead. Your family is dead. You friends are dead. Innocent people are dead, and all you are worried about is not letting people defend themselves.

I live in a town where working at a gas station at 12pm is safer than working at a bank during mid day because gas station employees are allowed to be armed and bankers are not. gas stations never get robbed around her and there is a bank robbery at least once every two months. Sure, lets take guns away from everyone so they can't defend themselves against the criminals that have guns because they don't follow the law. You know, because they are criminals and all.

[excalpius]

We already did and you dismissed everything with your conspiracy theories. Fact: Violent crimes rates are going down. Fact: Gun ownership is going up. While the two are no[t] necessarily related...

It's been proven quite clearly that they aren't related, period. Which ends any further discussion of this non-sequitor.

By similar logic, one might even argue that the violent crime rates would have dropped EVEN MORE if gun ownership had dropped along with it.

See what I did there? I used two unrelated, uncorrelated bits of information to hypothetically present the opposite to your argument. And while I suspect that this may indeed be true, I have seen NO studies reporting on this, so I won't quote it as fact...unlike all of you.

[excalpius]

Dumbest thing you have said so far. Nobody cares if the person that murdered them is caught and convicted because they are DEAD. The idea is to prevent this outcome all together, not get justice after that fact.

The criminals care. The ONLY proven preventative measure that has been shown to actually reduce violent crime rates is the FEAR of getting caught and thrown away forever. While that will not stop a crime of passion, the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by repeat-offenders/professional criminals. And they know the score.

Sure, lets take guns away from everyone so they can't defend themselves against the criminals that have guns because they don't follow the law.

Nowhere have I argued that we should take guns away from citizens, so here is another case where one of you is inventing something from whole cloth and then debating it. That is a waste of your time and mine.

This is NOT a black or white issue, despite what the NRA's self-serving propaganda would have you believe.

So, here is what I believe...

Everyone should have the right to own a handgun or rifle for home defense, as long as they are properly trained and certified in its use and care, and have proper security measures in place to see it doesn't fall into the hands of children...or criminals robbing your house.

No private citizen should own military grade weapons or ammunition. There is no legitimate home defense need for this.

No private citizen should be allowed to carry a weapon in public, concealed or otherwise. America is not Dodge City anymore.

Drugs should be legalized, freeing up the same number of law enforcement professionals to pursue more violent criminals than they are capable of doing now. We citizens will see a greater police presence in our neighborhoods and get more bang for the buck from our finest civil servants.

And for the record, the REAL reason that violent crime has gone down is...

We've incarcerated the vast majority of repeat offenders under so-called "three-strikes" laws, or their equivalents. In other words, beginning in the 1980's, we closed the revolving door on prisons for men who have shown they have no intention of playing by the rules of society. Life sentences for repeat offenders increased exponentially. For example, this broke the back of the gang wars on the streets of South Central LA as well as locking up serial killers and serial rapists. As a bonus, the latter tended to end crime sprees we didn't even know were being committed by the same person across state lines, etc. Before today's modern information sharing age, that was a common way for a serial criminal to avoid arousing suspicion, etc.

In other words, we, as a nation, said "enough is enough" and started enforcing our laws...and then some.

And it had NOTHING to do with increased gun ownership. That trend actually coincides with the increased marketing of the NRA and gun manufacturers, who feared a decline in gun ownership as citizens began to feel safer and safer. And clearly, it has worked.

[Marshall Veteran]

But the truth is that YOU are not in any real danger. Not from criminals, not from terrorists. You never have been.

So you are NOT carrying a concealed weapon to protect yourself or your family. You are carrying it because you are afraid of...nothing.

Wow, seriously? You must live in a small town in Montana. Try making this statement if you're living in east St. Louis, or Cleavland, or many others. Even in my hometown with a population of 400,000, the first 15 minutes of the local news is nothing but murders, rapes, robberies, assaults and other crimes.

I am by no means paranoid, I just choose to open my eyes and see the reality that is human nature.

Pacifism is a good idea, but it can get you killed.

[ILikeTobacco]

The criminals care.

Nobody here, or anywhere else, care about the criminal. They gave up on the right for us to give a damn about them when they became criminals. I care about innocent people being stabbed for no reason. I care about people being able to protect themselves. You don't care about those people. We get it. If you did you wouldn't be arguing that they don't have a right to protect themselves. You say it in the quote below, no private citizen should be allowed to carry a weapon in public. Criminals are allowed to but not law abiding citizens. That is so unAmerican it is sickening. Who protects criminals more than law abiding citizens. You are ranked right there with lawyers that flat out lie and abuse the system.

No private citizen should be allowed to carry a weapon in public, concealed or otherwise. America is not Dodge City anymore.

And here we have it. This guy is so crazy that he believes that the guy in this post that stopped someone from murdering a lot of people is a bad person. He should not have had a firearm on him and he should never have used it to save lives. Sorry, but you have now entered into the insane category when not even the other antigun fanatics can save you from.

[ILikeTobacco]

And it had NOTHING to do with increased gun ownership. That trend actually coincides with the increased marketing of the NRA and gun manufacturers, who feared a decline in gun ownership as citizens began to feel safer and safer. And clearly, it has worked.

If it had NOTHING to do with increased gun ownership, you no longer have an argument to say legal gun ownership is linked to violent crimes. Sorry you lose, still, after pages of your baseless facts. Take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. We have a board just for that afterall.

[excalpius]

I am by no means paranoid,

Perhaps. But apparently you've missed the fact that the "news" is now "infotainment" designed to get ratings to generate ad dollars. In other words, the news networks have the same agenda as tabloids do. Which means, if it bleeds, it leads.

You need to follow the money and realize that you are NOT getting a representative picture of true human nature that way.

Number of people you know personally who have been shot (not in combat, of course)?

I've met tens of thousands through my many careers and not one of them has been shot or knows someone personally who has been.

I have no profit agenda here. Does the media? Does the NRA? Does the ADT/home security industry? Does the gun industry?

I'm not a pacifist. I'm just not a sucker...

[excalpius]

Nobody here, or anywhere else, care about the criminal.

Neither do I, nor did I say anything but. Your reading comprehension fails, so the rest of that rant is irrelevant.

And here we have it. This guy is so crazy that he believes that the guy in this post that stopped someone from murdering a lot of people is a bad person.

Again, never said that. Never said anything like it. I just said that this ONE rarest of exceptions does not justify MILLIONS of overpowered military-grade weapons in the hands of people so cowardly and ignorant that they don't even realize they're being played for suckers by a lot of people who are making a lot of money off of a fear they themselves instilled in the suckers to begin with. 8P

The point I would make regarding this specific situation had to do with the fact that the nut was using a knife and that myself and many other men could have easily disabled and/or disarmed him without the need to carry a concealed weapon. Merely owning a gun is NOT a substitute for being properly trained for such situations.

I'm grateful that the person who was armed was responsible and not insane. In many similar situations, it's the innocent bystanders who get shot by the well-meaning, but ultimately incompetent cowboy.

[excalpius]

If it had NOTHING to do with increased gun ownership, you no longer have an argument to say legal gun ownership is linked to violent crimes.

Since I never argued that point, your unrelated conclusion shows that you've failed Reading Comprehension 101...again.

[Marshall Veteran]

Perhaps. But apparently you've missed the fact that the "news" is now "infotainment" designed to get ratings to generate ad dollars. In other words, the news networks have the same agenda as tabloids do. Which means, if it bleeds, it leads.

You need to follow the money and realize that you are NOT getting a representative picture of true human nature that way.

Number of people you know personally who have been shot (not in combat, of course)?

I've met tens of thousands through my many careers and not one of them has been shot or knows someone personally who has been.

I have no profit agenda here. Does the media? Does the NRA? Does the ADT/home security industry? Does the gun industry?

I'm not a pacifist. I'm just not a sucker...

Who cares if the news is centered around money, so is everything else. Because they choose to show the stories that sell better, doesn't make them untrue.

I've witnessed violence first-hand on many occasions. And as the victim of an assault that put me in the ICU, I'll do what I can to prevent that from happening ever again. For me, that means using a force multiplier. As I've said before, I hope it never comes to that, I don't want to injure anyone, and more importantly I don't want to kill them. But in the unlikely event that it's my life or an attacker, it's going to be him.

Please elaborate on how this makes me a "sucker?"

[ILikeTobacco]

I'm grateful that the person who was armed was responsible and not insane. In many similar situations, it's the innocent bystanders who get shot by the well-meaning, but ultimately incompetent cowboy.

Calling police incompetent cowboys is a bit low don't you think? Do your research, police are more likely to shot an innocent bystander than something with a CC. Seriously stop making up crap that just isn't true. You are getting ridiculous at this point.

Since I never argued that point, your unrelated conclusion shows that you've failed Reading Comprehension 101...again.

In response to this:

Since you apparently can't win this debate through the logic and reason of your arguments, you've resorted to insults.

Your forfeit and surrender is hereby noted.

You have continues gone off with fake crap without a single source. Everyone here has given you source after source. LIke I said before, there is a thread for conspiracy theories. Go there. They don't need sources to make up crap which is what you are doing a amazing job of here.

Fact: Violent crimes are going down.

Fact: Only 5% of gunshot wounds are fatal.

Fact: Over 50% of fatal gunshot wounds are suicides.

Fact: We live in the United States of America where we have the right to bear arms so deal with it or get out.

Fact: You claim you are a man in the same thread as showing your ignorance and fear towards guns.

I am not going to cite anything because everyone here, other than you knows these are real facts. You have yet to prove a single point you have made, thus you are just another nut job who watches to much TV and liberal news. Fact.

[excalpius]

Please elaborate on how this makes me a "sucker?"

It doesn't. I think that might apply more those who are spouting a line of BS straight from the NRA propaganda. I'd suggest that you may be overreacting to a truly traumatic event and psychological counseling might be of more use to you long term than the safety blanket of a gun.

[excalpius]

Calling police incompetent cowboys is a bit low don't you think?

Um, I'm not referring to the police. I'm referring to the people the police are most afraid of...second to armed criminals, of course. And that would be "armchair cowboys" without proper training. That's their term, not mine.

Fact: Violent crimes are going down.

Fact: Only 5% of gunshot wounds are fatal.

Fact: Over 50% of fatal gunshot wounds are suicides.

True or not, these are irrelevant statistics to this discussion.

Fact: We live in the United States of America where we have the right to bear arms so deal with it or get out.

Since you're the one who doesn't seem to respect my Constitutional right to disagree with your position in the same way that I DO respect your right to bear arms (just not assault weapons, home arsenals, hollow point ammunition, etc. etc.), why don't you get out first? 8P

Fact: You claim you are a man in the same thread as showing your ignorance and fear towards guns.

I am an expert marksman with handguns, rifles, and assault rifles. I am therefore neither ignorant about them nor afraid of them.

My friends and colleagues in law enforcement believe that the biggest threat they face next to hollow point bullets in the hands of crackheads are armchair warriors who carry concealed weapons without the proper training in their use...training professionals get DAILY to keep from making life-altering mistakes.

By all means, protect your home with simple, non-military grade weaponry, but please leave the protection of the rest of us to the professionals.

[KingCracker]

Um, I'm not referring to the police. I'm referring to the people the police are most afraid of...second to armed criminals, of course. And that would be "armchair cowboys" without proper training. That's their term, not mine.

True or not, these are irrelevant statistics to this discussion.

Since you're the one who doesn't seem to respect my Constitutional right to disagree with your position in the same way that I DO respect your right to bear arms (just not assault weapons, home arsenals, hollow point ammunition, etc. etc.), why don't you get out first? 8P

I am an expert marksman with handguns, rifles, and assault rifles. I am therefore neither ignorant about them nor afraid of them.

My friends and colleagues in law enforcement believe that the biggest threat they face next to hollow point bullets in the hands of crackheads are armchair warriors who carry concealed weapons without the proper training in their use...training professionals get DAILY to keep from making life-altering mistakes.

By all means, protect your home with simple, non-military grade weaponry, but please leave the protection of the rest of us to the professionals.

Leave the protection of the rest of us to the professionals! Funniest thing I've heard all day. Sure thing hoss we'll just let a man go on a stabbing spree while we wait on the police! Are you a member of the brady campaign by any chance?

BTW whats wrong with "military grade weaponry"? Wouldn't I want something of "military grade" rather than something made out of cheap parts? Oh I get it you want the gun to fail so the bad guy can do his deeds on us. Oh that's not it? You mean military style weapons? Like uh lets see an AR-15. Well Mr Brady let me remind you that the second amendment isn't just about self defense from criminals its also about self defense from the government, Wouldn't I want "military grade weaponry"? No not in your eyes because a gun that looks evil is BAD!

Assault rifles lol home arsenals LMAO seriously? and hollow points OMG SOOO EVIL and HOME ARSENALS?!? OMG if someone has more than 2 guns their gonna go gather up an army!!! Whats so wrong with owning a collection of guns? Do you even know what an Assault rifle is.

And calling people armchair cowboys.. Calling the kettle black there aren't you? I mean you did say that you'd rather hit the criminal over the head with a glass cookware did you not? LOL.

You're just one big joke in this thread.

1. You deny facts and statistics as NRA propaganda

2. You claim to be for the right to bare arms then you turn around and call those people that want to exercise that right derogatory names.

3. You claim that crime is non existent.

4. You want everyone to leave the protection to the "professionals"

5.The NRA to you is just a fear mongering group that preys on people..

Whats number 6 going to be?

Oh I know what number 6 is you claim that the majority of gun owners which would be multi millions of people will shoot themselves a family member or commit suicide.

[excalpius]

Do your research, police are more likely to shot an innocent bystander than something with a CC.

This is one of my favorite non-statistics EVER.

Did you know that fireman are more likely to put out business fires than office workers?

Did you know that lifeguards are more likely to save someone from drowning than a random bystander?

Did you know that soldiers are more likely to shoot someone in a war zone than a civilian?

etc.

etc.

So you want to claim amateur armchair warriors are less dangerous because the professionals are put into life and death situations more often because it's their JOB to do that?

Ridiculous.

[excalpius]

[edit: Removed a seemingly never-ending torrent of baseless insults, associations with me and the Brady Bill for inexplicable reasons because I've never brought that up, repeated misinterpretations of my actual words and positions in order to debate the misinterpretation while avoiding my actual words, and then all of it is filled with spelling and grammar errors.]

Nothing in your rant contains any actual information worth responding to. And note that a poor debater does more harm for their side than good.

So may I politely suggest that you take a little time to better formulate and edit your future responses? Especially if you want to be taken seriously.