Windows 8 and HTML5 will not go well

By ACTIONpack
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Grand Master

ACTIONpack

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If you make websites for a living you know that IE really leak behind Firefox and Chrome. Some things are the updates, firefox had this problems for years but the last 6 months they started to push more and more on their browser development. Chrome is always getting updated and I think now we are at version 30, LOL I think they are at 19. IE10 is still at preview but you can't be in preview mode when everyone else is moving really fast to keep up with the standards. IE10 will be the first really good browser from in years but I can't see it as a programming platform for developers for Windows 8. Also Html5 is not finish yet and having it to make programs when the language is not finish yet is not a good idea. Things can change and miss up look and feel of things. Also viruses are easier to put into things if the HTML5 is not finish yet. What are you thoughts on this matter?

Rising Star

floopydoodle

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If you make websites for a living you know that IE really leak behind Firefox and Chrome. Some things are the updates, firefox had this problems for years but the last 6 months they started to push more and more on their browser development. Chrome is always getting updated and I think now we are at version 30, LOL I think they are at 19. IE10 is still at preview but you can't be in preview mode when everyone else is moving really fast to keep up with the standards. IE10 will be the first really good browser from in years but I can't see it as a programming platform for developers for Windows 8. Also Html5 is not finish yet and having it to make programs when the language is not finish yet is not a good idea. Things can change and miss up look and feel of things. Also viruses are easier to put into things if the HTML5 is not finish yet. What are you thoughts on this matter?

Wait, first you say keeping up with standards is a good thing? But when MS is using web standards it's bad, because html5 is not finished yet. Oookay...

By the way, please don't take sites like html5test.com seriously. It's pretty much a feature bragging test. MS is deliberately taking a conservative aproach to html5, only implementing features that are unlikely to break in the future due to changes and implementing them properly. Sites like html5test.com only test for the existence of features, not if they actually work according to spec. So to claim that FF and Chrome is ahead of IE when it comes to html5 might not be true.

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Grand Master

The_Decryptor Veteran

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I don't think it'll cause too many problems in reality, the "HTML5" Metro apps won't actually run in normal browsers (They're heavily tied to WinRT, you'd have to re-implement all the bindings first), and I can't see many people trying to make random web pages run as Metro apps.

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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I don't see a problem, IE10 will update itself automatically now (compared to before) and while it is on a slower development cycle than the other browsers each new version of IE is at least worth the change in version number. Honestly how much is different between FF10 and FF11? Or Chrome 18 and Chrome 19? Those two have just managed to make version numbers a joke in the end. So far I see a huge jump going from IE9 to IE10 and it makes it worthwhile. Also, as a few others have pointed out, the IE team is adding things from the spec that aren't going to end up changed or breaking later, and they also make sure that it works the way it should work and not that it just works period so let's call it a day.

Web devs should know this well, the same markup, even though it's a "standard" doesn't always show up the same in all the browsers though that's the point of having a standard to begin with. What good are all these html5 features if each browser decides it'll display them however it feels like?

Grand Master

BajiRav

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HTML5 is not the primary development language for W8, XAML is. Waiting for things to be finalised can take decades (see CSS 2.1). HTML5 is not that strong at the moment as users still have legacy software/devices.

The fact that Chrome does so many releases does not give it any credibility in the business domain I am affraid for backwards compatibility reasons mostly and not to mention the lack of GPO support. Let's face it, the Microsoft platform is dominant in the business sector and FF, Apple, Google are resisting it when developing windows apps.

Chrome's automatic updates break some of our internal websites so many times due to obscure bugs and changes, it's not even funny. :/

Grand Master

ACTIONpack

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Its true that chrome 18 and 19 only have mirror changes and can break some website but that's bad coding and the browser itself.

Html5, css3 and JavaScript will be a popular program for amateurs for Windows 8 because it's easier to learn then C+ or XML or ever program language Microsoft is using.

Grand Master

+pmrd Subscriber²

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Viruses are easier to put in HTML5 because it's not finished? Ok.. Care to back that up? You do know that programs can be updated, right? I don't think HTML5 will change to the point of breaking everything.

It seems to me that you don't really know what you are talking about and probably never even touched Windows 8 programming or maybe Microsoft should listen to you because you clearly did years of research into the subject.

Grand Master

torrentthief

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IE10 gets a score of 316 in html5test.com, thats hardly a bad score. Yes html5 spec isn't finished but microsoft has added most of the more important features and implements them well. Programmers can do a lot of great things with the things in html5 that have already been decided and that are included in IE10.

Win8 will accelerate html5 development assuming they don't include flash like they might be doing in the release preview.

Grand Master

Motoko.

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MS is trying to have the benefits of actually killing the desktop and appealing to the tablet whilst tricking <snipped> into using it on a desktop.

Their entire budget is probably spent on writing those MSDN pages comparing the complaining from XP to Vista and other transitions to the Windows 8 transition as if it holds a candle to this bullsh*t their pulling with Visual Studio and even their standalone compilers.

Edited by Calum
Let's not use that word to describe fellow people. Thank you.
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LAMj

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@OP, You're contradicting yourself and clearly misinformed. Constant updates isn't a problem when HTML5 itself is not finished. Beside, developers can already do so much right now with HTML5, even in IE9. The problem is that not many are doing anything with it. By that I mean fully taking advatange of HTML5 and incorporating it to their products. They always complains when IE is behind the standards etc etc, but they never exceed what they can already do with current standards.

Hell, when IE5.5 came out with stuff like text-shadows and others 'proprietary' css features people bitches about that. And now look what happened in CSS3, box-shadow. IE-old came up with many of ideas that is in CSS3 now. But because IE was the only elephant in the room, people bitches about it.

Everyone want to be the new, but they can never code anything beautiful with what they've got.

Experienced

Matthew_Thepc

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By the way, please don't take sites like html5test.com seriously. It's pretty much a feature bragging test. MS is deliberately taking a conservative aproach to html5, only implementing features that are unlikely to break in the future due to changes and implementing them properly.

agreed, the features IE has implemented are relatively stable features - they're features that are core to HTML5, but they're not so unstable that they're likely to change any major things about them soon.

Also, with IE10 there's now auto-updating, and most of the important (security) updates were delivered automatically through Windows Update anyways. Agreeing with the others, FF and Chrome are changing their version numbers so fast that I'm just developing my sites for IE9 and essentially hoping that it'll work fine in Chrome and Firefox. In terms of the Metro apps, it's really based a lot more on JavaScript & WinRT (AFAIK) than the more unstable features. my 2c :D

Grand Master

+pmrd Subscriber²

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Oh yeah cause Visual Studio 2010 stopped working all of a sudden. And you can write Metro apps in C++ btw..

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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Reading into more detail:

"the Windows SDK for windows 8 will not include a compiler toolchain at all, lest any sneaky developers try to cheat the system and use it to write desktop apps."

You do know you're only talking about the free express version right? And as has been pointed out if you just want to make desktop apps VS 2010 still works fine. Also students can get VS2011 Pro through DreamSpark, otherwise if you're a "pro" then pay for it like everyone else.

Grand Master

Motoko.

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You do know you're only talking about the free express version right? And as has been pointed out if you just want to make desktop apps VS 2010 still works fine. Also students can get VS2011 Pro through DreamSpark, otherwise if you're a "pro" then pay for it like everyone else.

That only works if you develop Metro type applications anything past that yeah they want you to pay.

Grand Master

George P Global Moderator

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That only works if you develop Metro type applications anything past that yeah they want you to pay.

Right, and I don't see a problem with it. Sure it sucks for small devs that can't code desktop apps for free now but they should be looking at WinRT and less at Win32 going forward anyways. In time the desktop will be the domain for big heavy apps like VS and so on and less and less for small time apps that do simple tasks.

Or just use VS2010 express for win32 and don't upgrade.

Mentor

kopsarchidis

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Good or bad Win 8 will replace all previous versions. If you'd like to end up like users insisting on XP while 7 is rocking that's another issue. Same will happen with HTML5 with the only difference when it comes out if your browser does not support it you won't be able to view half of the web (that is already being prepared for HTML5).

Grand Master

BajiRav

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NOTHING will top Windows 98 and IE6. THAT, my friend, did "not go well" for web developers.

IE6 was actually state of the art(std. support etc.) on Windows 98 :p because the competition sucked big time. I know hating IE6 is fashion but the problem was lack of updates to IE and not IE6 in particular.

Grand Master

PGHammer

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The real logic behind the OP's post is that there are lots of folks (users, developers, etc) that have literally no desire to move beyond what exists today (HTML 4+ and proprietary plug-ins such as Flash and Java) because it's what they know and what's supported from high-end to low - and the lowest common device standard is what development of Web pages and whole sites is "all about" according to these same folks. Basically, the mobile space.

Grand Master

PGHammer

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That only works if you develop Metro type applications anything past that yeah they want you to pay.

Like VS 2010 Express (which is still available and has gone nowhere) won't work?

Win32 applications - non-Metro ones - still work on Windows 8.

If you want your application to run on WindowsRT, then WInRT as an API is your only choice.

However, non-WinRT (Win32) development is also supported (even by VS11).

WinRT as an API has a sting in the tail - no Windows 7 support. Why would a *garage developer* deliberately restrict himself like that - and especially now?

I think someone is putting the cart ahead of the horse.

The only real reason to choose WinRT (as opposed to Win32) for a free application would be if you wanted to restrict possible users to those running Windows 8 and Windows RT (the only operating systems supporting the API). Look at the applications in the Store for the Windows 8 Consumer Preview - they are, by and large, WinRT versions of existing Win32 applications (Amazon's KindleRT app, for example) - and it's not like the existing Win32 applications don't work (I still use the Win32 Kindle e-reader application in the Consumer Preview).

Also, SDKs (and add-ons to SDKs) grow as the OS matures - how many of the languages supported by the Windows 7 (not 8) SDK even *existed* when the first Win32 SDK became available? (The original Win32 SDK didn't support Visual BASIC, for example.)

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

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Microsoft is true evil for not giving their software for free :/

Maybe not evil, but they're making it less enticing for developers to look into writing Windows software. I'd argue that development tools by the platform vendor are a relatively special case compared to other software and should be free. After all, developers are what makes the platform really worthwhile in the first place. And look at the competition: Xcode is free, Eclipse is free.

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