Free development tools to be Metro-only

[~Johnny]

No, it's a matter of whenever Microsoft feel they can stop supporting the runtimes. Which going on their previous could be anything from a year to a decade.

One way or another, it's pretty clear they ARE trying to force everyone into both using and developing with Metro only.

They're going to be supporting .NET 4.0 for a while, which is what VS 2010 Express uses. And keep in mind, Microsoft have a habit of updating their VS EXpress products after release with new editions and language features. Their core goal right now is getting it set up for Metro developers - because us desktop developers already have a stable, working product. They can add in desktop development after.

They're also forcing nothing upon us. They explicitly tell us there is a way to develop desktop apps for free, and they even recommend developing for the desktop in a number of scenarios if it fits your applications goal.

[Stoffel]

I really don't see the problem here.

They offer the newest version for free and you can build Metro apps with it.

If you want to keep developing desktop apps, they still offer VS2010 for free.

Nobody needs to pay anything. So for the hobby programmer nothing changes.

If you are a professional developer and plan on making money with your creations, just pay up and buy the professional version with more options.

Don't be cheap!

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

Pretty bad when you have to Sideload apps on a desktop computer :/

It's not bad at all, far from it. This is the best thing about Metro.

Metro is all about providing a consistent and uniform experience for consumers. Knowing that when you obtain an app, it'll work as advertised, will be free from viruses and general maliciousness, and will conform to all Metro UI guidelines.

If you really must run non-tested/approved code, then Win8 Metro is similar to iOS or Android, in that you'll have to perform an advanced task on your device to get that software to run (rooting in the case of iOS and dev mode in the case of Android). In the case of Win 8, people will have to share their non-ms store wares as VS projects which you can then import into VS 2011 Express on your own machine. You can then add a tile for it to Metro and away you go. I'm sure some bright spark will also figure out the mechanism for allowing businesses to directly publish apps to Windows 8 too, and then give that function to the rest of us.

Or, people can just publish their apps to the store with the utmost of ease and be done with it.

One way or another, it's pretty clear they ARE trying to force everyone into both using and developing with Metro only.

But that is kind of the whole point of Windows 8. Windows 8 is a Metro app platform first and foremost. The desktop is an application compatibility area for legacy non-metro apps, or those more complex apps that don't suit the metro environment. And to be honest, anybody developing those types of complex apps to be used on Windows 8 are going to have the Pro version of VS anyway.

As I've said time and time again on here... Windows 8 is Metro. They may have made the desktop a little more friendly (taskbar enhancements, etc) for those of us who will continue using it for some legacy apps, but that doesn't change the fact that Windows 8 is primarily a new platform for Metro apps. If you don't want anything to do with Metro or Metro apps going forward, then it wouldn't be sensible to get Windows 8. Paying money to upgrade to Windows 8, just to receive a few desktop upgrades you could mostly replicate with freeware on Win7 and also then totally ignore the main part of Windows 8 (metro), would just be completely illogical.

[rfirth]

No big deal. I have Visual Studio 11 for Windows 8, Visual Studio 2010 for Windows Phone, Visual C# 2010 Express, and Visual C++ 2010 Express all installed on Windows 8.

Since when was Visual Studio 2010 inadequate?

In any case, 16 bit apps are still supported in Windows 8... they won't be dropping support for desktop apps for a long time.

[Stoffel]

Or, people can just publish their apps to the store with the utmost of ease and be done with it.

Yeah, but then you have to pay for it, and it seems like most people these days are cheap, reading all the posts here

[Noir Angel]

They are also taking a cut of people's profits and forcing you to restrain your app development to ways that suits their whims and not yours. Their goals aren't benign, they're just trying to go down Apple's route of exacting control over every aspect of your desktop experience or so it seems.

[gawicks]

I was actually looking forward to using the new C++ compiler in VS. To get my hands dirty on C++11 . I cannot be upgrading to Windows 8 just for this :-(.

[rfirth]

They are also taking a cut of people's profits and forcing you to restrain your app development to ways that suits their whims and not yours.

Only if you list a metro app in the app store. Besides, the cut they take is more than worth it. They take care of hosting, licensing, and distribution, and give you access to a huge amount of customers that would never find you otherwise.

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

Only if you list a metro app in the app store. Besides, the cut they take is more than worth it. They take care of hosting, licensing, and distribution, and give you access to a huge amount of customers that would never find you otherwise.

This. Not forgetting the payment processing they handle also, as well as providing your update mechanism for you.

[Skwerl]

...

Even my mom who has no idea what version of Windows she's running knows that Vista is bad.

...

"Even your mom" is just as terribly misinformed as many people, then.

[~Johnny]

This. Not forgetting the payment processing they handle also, as well as providing your update mechanism for you.

And they even provide you with the stack traces when your application crashes, which is mighty helpful and usually would involve a fair bit of hassle on your end to set up :p It's a lovely little system.

[Glassed Silver]

This is a first step into the direction that many predicted Apple would go, no?

Side-loading of applications in the desktop OS...

It's weird MS do this.

Yes, there still is VS 2010, but hell, even that version will get older some day and eventually to develop properly for the future desktop non-metro environment it will be a tough challenge.

I must say I'm pretty happy that I pulled out of the Microsoft eco-system in terms of what I use the most.

Still going to get W8 though I guess for games.

Glassed Silver:mac

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

This is a first step into the direction that many predicted Apple would go, no?

Side-loading of applications in the desktop OS...

And I'm surprised there isn't a bigger uproar about it. I don't see why they couldn't have gone with Apple's upcoming solution for their desktop OS: Give users a choice between allowing applications that have been downloaded from either (1) The store (2) The store and identified developers, or (3) anywhere. In terms of more user freedom without compromising security, It's both a superior solution to iOS as it is to Windows 8. The Metro restrictions aren't worse than the ones on iOS, but I don't want to see them on either OS X or Windows. I'm frankly not looking forward to the biggest desktop operating system adopting iOS's walled garden concept (at least in regard to Metro-style apps which, judging by the news item discussed in this thread and things Microsoft have said, they seem to regard as the way forward for them).

[Lant]

I was actually looking forward to using the new C++ compiler in VS. To get my hands dirty on C++11 . I cannot be upgrading to Windows 8 just for this :-(.

I would have guessed that you can use the VC++11 compiler from 2010. I just checked and its not currently possible with the Beta. (Using 2010 Premium)

But here's hoping that its possible with the final release.

I'm lucky that I get the fuller versions with MSDNAA and/or Dreamspark

[George P Global Moderator]

Putting the UI and all that stuff aside since this isn't the topic, the facts are clear here, WinRT is the new platform and devs should start to learn it now instead of sticking to Win32 till the end. This move with VS2011 Express (for now, as someone said they could add to it post-RTM) has made that clear if it wasn't before.

The "desktop" at some point down the line will, this is my bet, run WinRT metro apps as well, right now the APIs are basically v1.0 but I have no doubt that it will happen. Even the newest UI change on the desktop, a new theme without Aero glass, shows to me that this is going to happen. By them making the desktop windows look more like metro windows they're now setting the stage for Windows 9 to come in and unite the two. When the "desktop" can run WinRT apps then this whole issue above, as minor as I think it is, isn't one anymore. And at that time I believe the WinRT frameworks/APIs will be at the level or very close to Win32 that we'll start to see a bigger shift taking place.

People have to remember that this is just the first step we're seeing here in a long march to totally redoing the OS, and the desktop is going to follow in time. I expect the "desktop" as we know it will just be a basic workspace you switch to to manage 3+ windows etc, it won't be it's own thing like it is right now in Win8 at that point.

[LaP]

I don't think they want people to pay, they just want to push them into developing for Metro. Pretty poor decision either way though.

Yeah but from what i understand you'll need Windows 8 to make metro app using studio right ? This is as bad as Apple requiring a mac to make iOS app (i know it's possible under windows but the process is a pain in the ass).

Why not make Viisual Studio 2012 express an all in one free IDE. Can be installed over Windows 7 and 8. Can make both metro and desktop app when installed on Windows 7 and 8. Comes with a metro app emulator for Windows 7. That would be the good thing to do imo.

[Hum]

Maybe some developer will make code for a Start menu. :p

[George P Global Moderator]

Yeah but from what i understand you'll need Windows 8 to make metro app using studio right ? This is as bad as Apple requiring a mac to make iOS app (i know it's possible under windows but the process is a pain in the ass).

Why not make Viisual Studio 2012 express an all in one free IDE. Can be installed over Windows 7 and 8. Can make both metro and desktop app when installed on Windows 7 and 8. Comes with a metro app emulator for Windows 7. That would be the good thing to do imo.

It stands to reason that you'd test a metro app on windows 8 itself and not just use an emulator. Besides the CP will work till Jan 2013 or something and the new RP will work even longer than that into 2013. They're free and you can just install them on a VM and use them as a emulator but even better.

[PGHammer]

There isn't much room for interpretation:

[http://www.microsoft...oducts/express]

Either stick with an older version or pay up.

However, you are assuming that Win32 application development under Windows 8 (even using VS2010 Express) is impossible.

That is not true, and has *never* been true - not even with the Developer Preview.

The new Express versions explicitly target WinRT - the older Express versions (which target Win32) are not only not going anywhere, but will still be available - the very source you cite points that out.

Basically, there will be two sets of Express applications - both will, in fact, run on Windows 8.

Here are, in fact, the steps to do so -

In the case of VS 2010 Express for Windows Phone (a superset of VS 10 Express as it includes the Windows Phone and XNA Game Studio add-ons) the only change is that you have to install the latest Games for Windows LIVE client before installing VS 2010, and install the Windows Phone SDK 7.1.1 update after. (Naturally, all three installs should be run as Administrator.)

VS 2010 Express for Windows Phone can be found here - http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/windows-phone-developer-tools

VS 2010 Express targets the Win32 API (these are the "released" Express versions currently available). They run on the Consumer Preview of Windows 8 today.

VS 2012 Express targets WinRT as an API, and will *only* run on Windows 8 (it will not run on Windows 7). Both versions can co-exist.

Does that clear things up?

Edited May 25, 2012 by PGHammer

[PGHammer]

Yeah but from what i understand you'll need Windows 8 to make metro app using studio right ? This is as bad as Apple requiring a mac to make iOS app (i know it's possible under windows but the process is a pain in the ass).

Why not make Viisual Studio 2012 express an all in one free IDE. Can be installed over Windows 7 and 8. Can make both metro and desktop app when installed on Windows 7 and 8. Comes with a metro app emulator for Windows 7. That would be the good thing to do imo.

And is absolutely pointless.

VS 2010 Express isn't going anywhere, and runs on the Consumer Preview of Windows 8 today. I can write Win32 applications with it. The cost is still nil.

VS 2011 Express is designed to work alongside VS 2010 Express because it fills a hole in VS 2010 Express for the free/garage/basement developer - WinRT.

When the Release Preview arrives, I'll be reinstalling *both* Express versions of VS (10 and 11) to prove the point.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

However, you are assuming that Win32 application development under Windows 8 (even using VS2010 Express) is impossible.

No, I'm not.

Basically, there will be two sets of Express applications - both will, in fact, run on Windows 8.

But that's just because they're keeping the old version around?which lacks features such as the new c++ compiler or version 4.5 of the .NET framework ?!

VS 2010 Express targets the Win32 API (these are the "released" Express versions currently available). They run on the Consumer Preview of Windows 8 today.

VS 2012 Express targets WinRT as an API, and will *only* run on Windows 8 (it will not run on Windows 7). Both versions can co-exist.

Does that clear things up?

I'm not sure what you thought needed to be cleared up?! Correct me if I'm wrong, but VS 2011 seems to bring along many improvements and its $500 professional version supports both Metro-style apps as well as regular desktop apps. The Express version doesn't. It only allows you to create Metro-style apps. You're forced to pick the old version to develop a regular Desktop app. That doesn't bode well for the future.

[Motoko.]

Microsoft have lost the plot with this one. I don't understand why they'd want to force people away from developing on their platform :/

It's simple really, they want to buy back their own shares with one blunder after another lol

[jakem1]

Personally I think this decision is a little bit strange - it just seems easier to allow .NET and WinRT development from the one version of VS Express. However, the fact is that the Express editions haven't been around for that long and before then you had no choice but to pay for Visual Studio. Bearing that in mind:

• How many people does this really effect?
  
• What sorts of apps are hobbyists likely to write anyway and will they be better suited to Metro than the desktop?
  
• The express editions have always included limitations so what's wrong with one more?
  

As others have said, VS 2010 Express still works just fine so it's certainly not the end of the world and you can't blame MS for wanting to promote Metro apps and encourage developers to produce them. However, from a PR point of view MS probably haven't done themselves any favours and have just given haters one more thing to complain about.

[Noir Angel]

Putting the UI and all that stuff aside since this isn't the topic, the facts are clear here, WinRT is the new platform and devs should start to learn it now instead of sticking to Win32 till the end. This move with VS2011 Express (for now, as someone said they could add to it post-RTM) has made that clear if it wasn't before.

The "desktop" at some point down the line will, this is my bet, run WinRT metro apps as well, right now the APIs are basically v1.0 but I have no doubt that it will happen. Even the newest UI change on the desktop, a new theme without Aero glass, shows to me that this is going to happen. By them making the desktop windows look more like metro windows they're now setting the stage for Windows 9 to come in and unite the two. When the "desktop" can run WinRT apps then this whole issue above, as minor as I think it is, isn't one anymore. And at that time I believe the WinRT frameworks/APIs will be at the level or very close to Win32 that we'll start to see a bigger shift taking place.

People have to remember that this is just the first step we're seeing here in a long march to totally redoing the OS, and the desktop is going to follow in time. I expect the "desktop" as we know it will just be a basic workspace you switch to to manage 3+ windows etc, it won't be it's own thing like it is right now in Win8 at that point.

So basically, because it's new and because Microsoft want to push it, devs and users should put up and shut up whether they like it or not? Again this sounds disturbingly similar to the paradigms used by a certain fruit related company. I use Windows because of the freedom it provides me to install the applications that I want to use, and because of the freedom of developers to code applications in their own way. If they do cut that freedom it may make Windows a bit easier on the lowest common denominator but it will also put a lot of users also at a serious disadvantage,

[jakem1]

So basically, because it's new and because Microsoft want to push it, devs and users should put up and shut up whether they like it or not?

How can you say that? As has been stated numerous times, devs have a number of choices including paying for the full version of VS11 or downloading VS 2010 Express. Nobody's forcing anyone to develop metro apps and nobody's losing any freedom. At most you're losing a bit of convenience.