Free development tools to be Metro-only

By bandit_liberty_rumble
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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Grand Master

Stoffel

Posted
Posted

So basically, because it's new and because Microsoft want to push it, devs and users should put up and shut up whether they like it or not? Again this sounds disturbingly similar to the paradigms used by a certain fruit related company. I use Windows because of the freedom it provides me to install the applications that I want to use, and because of the freedom of developers to code applications in their own way. If they do cut that freedom it may make Windows a bit easier on the lowest common denominator but it will also put a lot of users also at a serious disadvantage,

You have to put up with nothing. They provide a free IDE for you to develop Win32 apps and they provide another free IDE to develop the new Metro apps.

If you don't like that, you can always use a text editor to write your code, the compilers are still free, or if you feel you can make money with the software you build, you could actually buy Visual Studio.

Said it before here, people bitch about FREE stuff way to much!!!

Grand Master

Miuku.

Posted
Posted
I use Windows because of the freedom it provides me to install the applications that I want to use, and because of the freedom of developers to code applications in their own way

If you imagine any _desktop_ OS forces you to program in a certain way or restricts your applications, you're severely deluded.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

No, I'm not.

But that's just because they're keeping the old version around?which lacks features such as the new c++ compiler or version 4.5 of the .NET framework ?!

I'm not sure what you thought needed to be cleared up?! Correct me if I'm wrong, but VS 2011 seems to bring along many improvements and its $500 professional version supports both Metro-style apps as well as regular desktop apps. The Express version doesn't. It only allows you to create Metro-style apps. You're forced to pick the old version to develop a regular Desktop app. That doesn't bode well for the future.

That's just it - the professional version costs $500 normally.

The professional version of VS 11 (which supports all that you complain about VS 10's own professional version lacking - namely, the WinRT stuff) will cost no more. Right now, because it's still in beta itself, it costs nothing.

VS 2010 Professional *also* costs $500. How much does VS 2010 Ultimate cost?

Instead of comparing apples to oranges (fee vs. free - which is exactly what the OP is trying to do), compare VS 11 with the version it supersedes (namely VS 2010).

Grand Master

Stoffel

Posted
Posted

Hm... This is rather interesting... I have a Pro license, but I can see this being an issue for people getting into development.

Why, because they have to download 2 free programs in stead of just one?

Proficient

The_Decimator

Posted
Posted

I'm honestly starting to think that Microsoft's been trying to say, "I'm sick & tired of everyone complaining about Metro! You know what; the more you say that we should have an option to use the Desktop the more that option goes away!"

Proficient

Woelfel

Posted
Posted

For those who are complaining, how many of your are actual serious developers? If you were a developer, I'm pretty sure you have nothing to really complain about because you know what you can and can't use and see that there isn't a real problem. Otherwise, you're just b****ing to b****.

Veteran

rfirth

Posted
Posted

I'm honestly starting to think that Microsoft's been trying to say, "I'm sick & tired of everyone complaining about Metro! You know what; the more you say that we should have an option to use the Desktop the more that option goes away!"

That option hasn't gone away in the slightest.

For those who are complaining, how many of your are actual serious developers? If you were a developer, I'm pretty sure you have nothing to really complain about because you know what you can and can't use and see that there isn't a real problem. Otherwise, you're just b****ing to b****.

Agreed. I'm sitting here with Visual Studio 2010 for Windows Phone and Visual C# 2010 Express open right now. And Notepad++ and MinGW for the g++ compiler. All on Windows 8. No complaints from me here.

Grand Master

Rudy

Posted
Posted

This sounds like it will be the death of Windows if Microsoft are stupid enough to follow through on this. Windows success has been based on developers being able to get their products to market on a platform which is easiest to get their products to their customers. If there are going to be barriers, the standard advice from the developer to their customer will be 'stay away from Windows 8' (as was the standard advice to stay away from Windows ME or Windows Vista). If there is no sign that Microsoft are going to come around on that, developers will start thinking about jumping ship than to stay on a Windows 7 platform which is not going to be around forever.

I don't see this happening, Windows was fine before MS decided to introduce a free version of VS (The free version started with VS 2005)
Experienced

georgevella

Posted
Posted

I don't really see any problems with this. Express was always targeted to the hobbyist developer so forcing them to target Metro only on VS11 is really not that tragic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, VS2010 Express (I know Pro/Ultimate does) supports multi-targeting, both for .NET and Native C++. Any new features or runtime will surely be included in VS2010, just like installing Windows SDK adds a new target to the multi-targeting list.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Instead of comparing apples to oranges (fee vs. free - which is exactly what the OP is trying to do), compare VS 11 with the version it supersedes (namely VS 2010).

VS 2010 Express (free): Allows you to build desktop apps.

VS 11 Express (free): Doesn't allow you to build desktop apps anymore.

How much more straightforward could the comparison be?!

Grand Master

Stoffel

Posted
Posted

VS 2010 Express (free): Allows you to build desktop apps.

VS 11 Express (free): Doesn't allow you to build desktop apps anymore.

How much more straightforward could the comparison be?!

You can still use VS2010 on Win8 to build desktop apps.

So what is the problem????

Ms moved on to newer technology, maybe you should too

  • ahhell and Calum
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Grand Master

Ambroos

Posted
Posted

"Even your mom" is just as terribly misinformed as many people, then.

Well the point is not whether she's right or not, the point is that even though she knows nothing about computers at all, she will avoid Windows Vista. I won't avoid Vista, I know Vista is perfectly fine. But my mom thinks it's not, and whether she's right or not, many people think Vista is bad.

If Windows 8 gets a bad reputation (justified or not), people will keep thinking it's bad. And when people think it's bad, they aren't easily conviced of the opposite.

I personally think that, aside very specialist software (office suites, photo and video editing, development software, ...) there isn't too much of a future in desktop software. Even with my usage now almost everything is shifting to websites and web apps. I use Facebook for Chat, Gmail (web) for mail, Cloud9 IDE for most development, we have a webapp for our file server at school, ...

Desktop apps? Document editing (Word 2010 and a LaTeX editor), music (Foobar/Spotify), FTP client, SSH client. That is about it really. Eclipse sometimes when coding for Android. But that's about it. Chrome is something that is always opened on my PC.

Veteran

~Johnny

Posted
Posted

You might want to actually read the article I linked to in the original post.

Yes he read it - his point is right though, VS Express 2010 is still there to built desktop apps. It hasn't been pulled or replaced. VS 11 Express will go up along side it for Metro development, but VS 2010 Express will still be there - the same thing many developers have been using to create desktop apps for many years now.

  • ahhell and Calum
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Grand Master

Stoffel

Posted
Posted

You might want to actually read the article I linked to in the original post.

My point still stands. If you really need all the fancy new stuff that bad, you must be a professional developer, that means you can afford the $500 for VS 11 Pro

Why do people complain so much about the free stuff they get??

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Why do people complain so much about the free stuff they get??

As I just wrote in the other thread, development tools aren't just any software. Developers are giving back value to the platform by writing programs for it. Therefore the platform vendor should do everything in their power to make it more attractive to target their platform. That includes the availability and pricing scheme of development tools. Apparently Microsoft feels they can get away with restricting the free version of their latest development environment in the way that is being discussed here, and MS may just be right, but other platforms are looking more and more attractive in the light of such decisions.

Grand Master

jakem1

Posted
Posted

As I just wrote in the other thread, development tools aren't just any software. Developers are giving back value to the platform by writing programs for it. Therefore the platform vendor should do everything in their power to make it more attractive to target their platform. That includes the availability and pricing scheme of development tools. Apparently Microsoft feels they can get away with restricting the free version of their latest development environment in the way that is being discussed here, and MS may just be right, but other platforms are looking more and more attractive in the light of such decisions.

Microsoft have always restricted the features available in their free development tools though. It might be a strange decision that they've taken but I don't think you've explained how anyone is worse off. You can still develop desktop apps for Windows 8 using free tools from MS and now you can develop Metro apps using free tools so why would this drive someone away from Windows development?.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Microsoft have always restricted the features available in their free development tools though. It might be a strange decision that they've taken but I don't think you've explained how anyone is worse off. You can still develop desktop apps for Windows 8 using free tools from MS and now you can develop Metro apps using free tools so why would this drive someone away from Windows development?.

Because there is no free version of the latest set of development tools that supports writing desktop applications. This is in contrast to development tools on the Apple or Linux side.

And I don't quite see what the way forward is supposed to be here? Will there at some point be a new free version of MS's development tools that allow for writing desktop applications, or is this it if you're not willing to pay $500 ?!

Proficient

The_Decimator

Posted
Posted

That option hasn't gone away in the slightest.

While the option remains, they're slowly forcing you out of it. I mean 1st they got rid of the start button, then Aero, & now this, eventually the Desktop will be gone altogether... BTW, personally, I love Metro, but I'm just trying to say that I think they're so ****ed off at everyone's complaining that they're doing the exact opposite of whatever everyone wants because they can.

Grand Master

jakem1

Posted
Posted

Because there is no free version of the latest set of development tools that supports writing desktop applications. This is in contrast to development tools on the Apple or Linux side.

And I don't quite see what the way forward is supposed to be here? Will there at some point be a new free version of MS's development tools that allow for writing desktop applications, or is this it if you're not willing to pay $500 ?!

The Apple and Linux side? You're talking about second rate development tools (in comparison to Visual Studio) on platforms that attract a small number of users and an even smaller number of developers. They're not competition, and the number of people that would switch platform altogether over something like this would be vanishingly small.

I don't see the point of speculating about the future. At this point all that matters is that hobbyists are no worse off. Microsoft might change their mind in the future or they might be vindicated and nobody will use a desktop OS in 10 years time - who knows, it doesn't matter at the moment.

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