Free development tools to be Metro-only

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

At this point all that matters is that hobbyists are no worse off.

In the short term, you might be right. We'll see about the long term. Certainly you admit yourself that (for better or worse) this is MS 'wanting to promote Metro apps and encourage developers to produce them'.

[simplezz]

I've been a loyal user of Windows for years and I agree. I'm not going to switch to Linux until it becomes as viable for my games as Windows

Steam is coming to GNU/Linux soon :)

[PGHammer]

VS 2010 Express (free): Allows you to build desktop apps.

VS 11 Express (free): Doesn't allow you to build desktop apps anymore.

How much more straightforward could the comparison be?!

And as I've pointed out, both run on the Consumer Preview of Windows 8 today. (In fact, I just added VB 2010 to the mix - which, incidentally, completes the set.)

The only issue (which I pointed out the fix for) involves the Windows Phone SDK (for VS 2010 Express).

[PGHammer]

In the short term, you might be right. We'll see about the long term. Certainly you admit yourself that (for better or worse) this is MS 'wanting to promote Metro apps and encourage developers to produce them'.

By making it just as easy (and free) to write WinRT apps as to write Win32 apps.

Nowhere in the link did it say that the Win32 development tools were going away.

This isn't FUD - this is plain and simple fear-mongering - and entirely misplaced.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

In the short term, you might be right. We'll see about the long term. Certainly you admit yourself that (for better or worse) this is MS 'wanting to promote Metro apps and encourage developers to produce them'.

By making it just as easy (and free) to write WinRT apps as to write Win32 apps.

No. By forcing developers who want to use the latest version of Microsoft's free development tools to write Metro-style apps instead of Desktop apps.

[PGHammer]

No. By forcing developers who want to use the latest version of Microsoft's free development tools to write Metro-style apps instead of Desktop apps.

How is Microsoft doing this?

VS 2010 Express hasn't gone anywhere. It's still available (and now includes the SDK for Windows Phone and the XNA Game Studio).

If you are referring to the compilers, they have, in fact, been separate from the IDE in the case of VS 2010 Express (VC++, VC# and VB) - they are still available, still free, and *all* run on the Consumer Preview of Windows 8 today.

The compilers for VS11 are still in development, as is the VS11 IDE. If you want to get an idea of what VS11 Express will be like, you can always grab VS 11 Ultimate's beta from Microsoft (cost - none). It will co-exist with VS 2010 (Express or paid) without a quibble. The article is *overblown* and, in fact, *wrong*, as less than a minute's digging on the Visual Studio site quickly proves.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

VS 2010 Express hasn't gone anywhere.

Yes, well, I fear we may have arrived at an infinite loop?

If you want to get an idea of what VS11 Express will be like, you can always grab VS 11 Ultimate's beta from Microsoft (cost - none).

Okay, now I'm severely confused?

Oh, and...:

the Windows SDK for windows 8 will not include a compiler toolchain at all, lest any sneaky developers try to cheat the system and use it to write desktop apps.

?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

The article is *overblown* and, in fact, *wrong*, as less than a minute's digging on the Visual Studio site quickly proves.

So will you or will you not be able to create desktop apps with VS11 Express?

[PGHammer]

So will you or will you not be able to create desktop apps with VS11 Express?

When the compilers are finalized (which won't be until *after* the paid version of VS 11 is finalized) - which was the case with VS 2010 Express, in fact.

Unlike the paid versions, the Express versions take a component approach - download only what you need.

For example, I didn't HAVE to download ALL the compilers available for VS 2010 Express (I seldom write C#-based programs, and I don't write VB programs at all).

The full (paid) versions of VS are more like kitchen sinks - every compiler (including ones you may never use) is included.

The article is more a fee vs. free bashfest.

[rfirth]

So will you or will you not be able to create desktop apps with VS11 Express?

The point is that it doesn't matter.

[ArialBlue]

One major perk of being a univ. student - VS 2010/11 ultimate is free.

Studying it ATM...

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

So will you or will you not be able to create desktop apps with VS11 Express?

When the compilers are finalized (which won't be until *after* the paid version of VS 11 is finalized) - which was the case with VS 2010 Express, in fact.

Is that a 'yes'? Why would MS then write:

Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 provides tools for Metro style app development. To create desktop apps, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher.

?

--

The point is that it doesn't matter.

Fine - if that's your opinion. But let's agree about the fact first.

[rfirth]

Fine - if that's your opinion. But let's agree about the fact first.

As a developer, I'm the end user. How many hours a week do you spend using Visual Studio?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

As a developer, I'm the end user. How many hours a week do you spend using Visual Studio?

Admittedly, right now, none. And the last version I used was VS 2008. Right now I spend my development time in Eclipse or Xcode.

What does that have to do with the fact of whether VS11 can be used to create desktop apps or not?!

[BajiRav]

Because there is no free version of the latest set of development tools that supports writing desktop applications. This is in contrast to development tools on the Apple or Linux side.

And I don't quite see what the way forward is supposed to be here? Will there at some point be a new free version of MS's development tools that allow for writing desktop applications, or is this it if you're not willing to pay $500 ?!

No. By forcing developers who want to use the latest version of Microsoft's free development tools to write Metro-style apps instead of Desktop apps.

Umm...Apple forces you to upgrade to latest desktop OS to use latest mobile dev. tools. Did you bitch about that too?

[PGHammer]

Admittedly, right now, none. And the last version I used was VS 2008. Right now I spend my development time in Eclipse or Xcode.

What does that have to do with the fact of whether VS11 can be used to create desktop apps or not?!

That is, in fact, entirely irrelevant.

VS 2010 Express (which, as the OP points out, *does* allow you to write Win32 desktop applications) is still available, not going anywhere, and, in fact, *is* supported by the Windows 8 Consumer Preview today.

If VS 2010 Express were being discontinued, the OP would have a point.

VS 11 Ultimate (the paid version) allows for the creation of both types of applications - VS 11 Express does not.

So all that means for the hobbyist/garage developer without access to DreamSpark is that he has to download two different versions of VS Express (which can co-exist).

VS 2010 Express is going exactly nowhere.

In fact, all the big changes are pretty much confined to WinRT - not Win32. Can *anyone* name one major change to the Win32 API that is NOT supported by VS 2010 Express?

[Noir Angel]

Steam is coming to GNU/Linux soon :)

Steam is one application. It doesn't mean a lot of the games that I play outside of steam are going to work, hell it doesn't even guarantee that the non-valve games that I do play on steam will work. It's a good start but there's still a long way for Linux to be a viable gaming OS. If that one day does happen it will be a better option for me.

[Andre S. Veteran]

How can you say that? As has been stated numerous times, devs have a number of choices including paying for the full version of VS11 or downloading VS 2010 Express. Nobody's forcing anyone to develop metro apps and nobody's losing any freedom. At most you're losing a bit of convenience.

Yes, people are losing the freedom of using the latest and greatest Microsoft technologies for free. They can use a legacy version that'll only get more outdated as times passes, or shell out 500$.

The argument that the 2010 version remains available is like saying that, let's say Microsoft stops developing Office, that Office isn't dead because Office 2010 is still there and it'll stay available in the years to come! Software that doesn't get updated gets oudated. Outdated software dies. VS 2010 will go the way of Dev-C++ and die, and with it the ability to create desktop apps for free.

[Highlander77]

Last thing i would use to program things in is Visual Studio. .NET runtime -> blah

[Highlander77]

Steam is one application. It doesn't mean a lot of the games that I play outside of steam are going to work, hell it doesn't even guarantee that the non-valve games that I do play on steam will work. It's a good start but there's still a long way for Linux to be a viable gaming OS. If that one day does happen it will be a better option for me.

The only thing which keeps me on Windows is Gaming, besides work where i am forced to use Windows but that's just work. I wish Steam hits on Linux soon and decent amount of games runs..bye bye Windows.

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

Yes, people are losing the freedom of using the latest and greatest Microsoft technologies for free. They can use a legacy version that'll only get more outdated as times passes, or shell out 500$.

The argument that the 2010 version remains available is like saying that, let's say Microsoft stops developing Office, that Office isn't dead because Office 2010 is still there and it'll stay available in the years to come! Software that doesn't get updated gets oudated. Outdated software dies. VS 2010 will go the way of Dev-C++ and die, and with it the ability to create desktop apps for free.

That's exactly the problem, not so much that we have to use an older version of Visual Studio, but the precedent that it sets. Is there ever going to be another version of Visual Studio express for desktop development, or is 2010 the last one? A lot of personal and free (in beer and speech) projects will fall behind the curve because they can't afford the $$$ for the newer versions of Visual Studio.

This won't encourage people to pay out money for the non-free version of Visual Studio, it'll just push hobbyists and free projects onto other platforms where the development tools are still free.

This seems like a really strange decision for Microsoft, given that their general stance is that developers (developers developers developers) are what make the platform as good as it is.

[jakem1]

Yes, people are losing the freedom of using the latest and greatest Microsoft technologies for free. They can use a legacy version that'll only get more outdated as times passes, or shell out 500$.

The argument that the 2010 version remains available is like saying that, let's say Microsoft stops developing Office, that Office isn't dead because Office 2010 is still there and it'll stay available in the years to come! Software that doesn't get updated gets oudated. Outdated software dies. VS 2010 will go the way of Dev-C++ and die, and with it the ability to create desktop apps for free.

As I said previously, you don't know what will happen in the future and there's no point speculating. You could just as easily say that Metro apps will be so successful that hobbyists won''t want to develop for the desktop in the future.

I'd also argue that you've never really had the total freedom to use the latest and greatest MS technologies for free. There are always enough limitations imposed to limit the appeal of the Express tools. I don't remember anyone complaining that their freedom was limited when they couldn't create a setup project or use add-ins in previous versions of the Express tools.

If you want to use the latest and greatest then you should just pay for it - you're not entitled to it.

[Andre S. Veteran]

As I said previously, you don't know what will happen in the future and there's no point speculating. You could just as easily say that Metro apps will be so successful that hobbyists won''t want to develop for the desktop in the future.

That would be extremely far-fetched. 99% of hobbyist development for Windows now is desktop apps, the new app model is just a beta at this point. That it would quickly make desktop apps irrelevant is not only very unlikely but given the investment Microsoft is still making in improving the desktop experience, it doesn't seem like what MS themselves are predicting.

I'd also argue that you've never really had the total freedom to use the latest and greatest MS technologies for free. There are always enough limitations imposed to limit the appeal of the Express tools. I don't remember anyone complaining that their freedom was limited when they couldn't create a setup project or use add-ins in previous versions of the Express tools.

There were limitations but you could build any type of application you wanted using the latest versions of their languages and libraries. Now they're restricting it to a particular type of application, and that's the issue.

If you want to use the latest and greatest then you should just pay for it - you're not entitled to it.

You're not entitled to any product at any price point, whether 0$, 500$ or 10000$... it's not a question of rights it's just a question of killing a great product and the impact that'll have on developers. As Majesticmerc said, this may very well end up pushing developers away from Windows altogether.

[jakem1]

There were limitations but you could build any type of application you wanted using the latest versions of their languages and libraries. Now they're restricting it to a particular type of application, and that's the issue.

That's not really true. For instance, you can't develop applications that run as services in VB.NET.

Anyway, here's a good article (surprisingly good for a newspaper) about this issue that I read in The Guardian today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/may/25/vs11-windows8-microsoft-fuss-nothing

Like me the author doesn't think the changes are necessarily justified but doesn't think they're that big a deal. It's worth a read.

[Max Norris]

That's not really true. For instance, you can't develop applications that run as services in VB.NET.

VB.NET's not my thing, but it can easily create a service. I don't use the Express editions (I use Pro myself), but pretty sure it doesn't have a service application tempate built in.. doesn't mean you can't do it though, you still have access to the full dotNET platform. You just need to create a class that inherits System.ServiceProcess.ServiceBase, override OnStart and OnStop and away you go.. the compiler doesn't care what you're using to write the code in.. be it Visual Studio or VIM or Notepad for all it cares. Or of course you could always use one of the various "Run As Service" helpers, which can run pretty much anything as a service, but that's cheating.