In what way does adding extra RAM help PC gaming performance?

[bogas04]

Even i have similar system with even lesser ram (2GB) , will adding more ram help me to get better FPS in Saints row the third? Or is it the processor which is umm bottle-necking ? Even at lowest settings the game is not playable while i see Youtube videos of people having even worse GPU and yet they manage to play it nice on relatively better settings.

[Noir Angel]

It wouldn't necessarily give you higher FPS but the game would be likely to run more smoothly. I'd guess it's likely to be stuttering that's your issue as your CPU and video card are more than the game's minimum requirements.

[Detection]

I don't know why this needs to be repeated time and time again, but there is no valid reason to disable the paging file. It does not increase performance because Windows only pages stuff when it needs to. Let Windows manage your memory, it wouldn't be designed to write a paging file if it didn't think you needed one.

So why are you repeating it then? No-one suggested it as a permanent feature, only to show that a game would max out 4GB of RAM and when you have no pagefile, the system will crash

[Noir Angel]

So why are you repeating it then? No-one suggested it as a permanent feature, only to show that a game would max out 4GB of RAM and when you have no pagefile, the system will crash

Because I like to correct misinformation, I can be a pain in the butt like that.

[Detection]

Because I like to correct misinformation, I can be a pain in the butt like that.

But you weren't correcting misinformation, in-fact you forced me to correct you, the information was correct, there was not even a discussion about disabling the pagefile other than to temporarily do it for a test

[Noir Angel]

Just to add my $0.02 to the discussion.

With regards to turning off the pagefile, I don't like doing it myself. It can SOMETIMES cause windows to go crazy, and some programs expect it to be there. Personally I run with a 1GB pagefile with 8GB of RAM.

The biggest issue that occurs isn't to do with maxing out the RAM I believe. I think its some legacy from when RAM was scarce, but windows loves to page out RAM whenever it can, so even if you are only using 3 of the 4GB you have, then windows will start paging some areas of memory, and you can run into FPS issues.

For the most part, "casual games", (such as LoL or D3) use around 700-1000MB of RAM, and will generally run fine with 4GB of ram (if you're not transcoding lord of the rings, solving the 102385th prime number, and sequencing DNA in the backgound).

I was referring to this post.

[Detection]

I was referring to this post.

Ok well as I brought up the subject of the pagefile, and nothing was quoted in your post I took that as a reply to me

I did experiment with disabling it yonks ago but bad things happened and noticed no improvements either

[Noir Angel]

Ok well as I brought up the subject of the pagefile, and nothing was quoted in your post I took that as a reply to me

I did experiment with disabling it yonks ago but bad things happened and noticed no improvements either

Sorry for the confusion, I should have originally quoted that post

[ThaCrip]

Even i have similar system with even lesser ram (2GB) , will adding more ram help me to get better FPS in Saints row the third? Or is it the processor which is umm bottle-necking ? Even at lowest settings the game is not playable while i see Youtube videos of people having even worse GPU and yet they manage to play it nice on relatively better settings.

Well with 2GB of RAM in general... it's definitely worth upgrading RAM as you WILL notice a difference in overall system performance as i had 2GB myself and then bought a new mobo/cpu/ram and now i am at 8GB and it makes a world of difference as you can run any programs you want and when you exit games the system is still perfectly responsive unlike when you have 2GB it has to reload a ton of data from the hard drive (which system slows down to a crawl during that time) back into RAM before it becomes nice and quick again. even going from 2GB to 4GB would make a clear difference since 2GB your really running on the edge especially when web browsers can burn up 500-700MB pretty quickly where as once you get 4GB that should generally be 'good enough' although depending on what type of RAM you got it's probably a good idea to upgrade to 8GB since DDR3 ram is quite cheap and with 8GB your PC is future proofed as far as RAM goes as with 8GB you can safely assume nothing will really use that much unto the foreseeable future as far as general system use goes and gaming.

but if your on the older DDR or DDR2 RAM still seems to be fairly expensive in which case if you don't want to get a PC i would at least go to 4GB if possible but if you got to 4GB of RAM it's a very good idea to have a 64bit OS otherwise you won't use all of that 4GB of RAM.

i would imagine even in games to some degree you might notice it. but not because of the RAM itself doing it, but because when the game loads from the hard drive it can cause the frame rate to stutter a bit which when you got 2GB of RAM odds are it will be loading from the hard drive fairly often especially on any fancy games.

but as far as that Saints Row thing... if that's a crappy port like GTA4 is that right there ain't doing any favors for your frame rate.

[simplezz]

I didn't say Crysis 2, but yea it was up to date when I found out it kills the system with no pagefile, generally when I was causing some big explosions

Clearly that's a problem with the game, hardware / drivers, or OS then.

[Detection]

Clearly that's a problem with the game, hardware / drivers, or OS then.

How is that clearly a problem with all of the above and not the machine running out of RAM ?

The game does not crash with the pagefile enabled, yet it does when it is disabled, the main function of the pagefile is to use the HDD as virtual RAM when the physical RAM is maxxed out

No pagefile, what does the system do when it runs out of RAM? It bluescreens (If you turn off the low memory warning)

[simplezz]

With regards to turning off the pagefile, I don't like doing it myself. It can SOMETIMES cause windows to go crazy, and some programs expect it to be there.

I'm not a Windows expert by any measure, but I was under the impression that any allocation of the pagefile/swap is managed by the OS opaquely in such a way that applications don't have to concern themselves with such trivialities. Application heap memory allocation is done though malloc() and friends. I don't see how an application can depend on its (pagefile) presence without breaking the blackbox abstraction that the OS's memory management API provides.

Whenever I've written applications, I've only ever dealt with the malloc interface, and the OS decides if it needs to use disk space due to low memory conditions.

Personally I run with a 1GB pagefile with 8GB of RAM.

That won't be much help if you want to suspend/hibernate though. To be honest, if you're got 8GB of ram, a 1GB pagefile is quite pointless for a few reasons:

1. If you think you're going to run out of memory, and you're burning through 8GB so fast, how is only 1GB going to help?

2. Swapping processes in and out of memory to disk is expensive, in terms of processor resources, energy, and disk longevity.

3. When the OS starts going to the pagefile/swap for all new memory operations, the system is going to crawl to a halt. I can understand if you've only 512MB, 1GB, or even 2GB, but not if you've got 4GB or more. And even then, who's going to want to continue using a system that's relying soley on the pagefile for doing stuff? If you're running out all the time, get more memory, or cut down on the parallel work. I really don't see the benefit of a pagefile for systems with large amounts of memory.

The biggest issue that occurs isn't to do with maxing out the RAM I believe. I think its some legacy from when RAM was scarce, but windows loves to page out RAM whenever it can, so even if you are only using 3 of the 4GB you have, then windows will start paging some areas of memory, and you can run into FPS issues.

That's why I dislike the pagefile in principal. It just slows down the system and uses resources that could be better spent elsewhere. But that's just my opinion, and everybody's entitled to their own :)

[Detection]

I'm not a Windows expert by any measure, but I was under the impression that any allocation of the pagefile/swap is managed by the OS opaquely in such a way that applications don't have to concern themselves with such trivialities. Application heap memory allocation is done though malloc() and friends. I don't see how an application can depend on its (pagefile) presence without breaking the blackbox abstraction that the OS's memory management API provides.

Whenever I've written applications, I've only ever dealt with the malloc interface, and the OS decides if it needs to use disk space due to low memory conditions.

That won't be much help if you want to suspend/hibernate though. To be honest, if you're got 8GB of ram, a 1GB pagefile is quite pointless for a few reasons:

1. If you think you're going to run out of memory, and you're burning through 8GB so fast, how is only 1GB going to help?

2. Swapping processes in and out of memory to disk is expensive, in terms of processor resources, energy, and disk longevity.

3. When the OS starts going to the pagefile/swap for all new memory operations, the system is going to crawl to a halt. I can understand if you've only 512MB, 1GB, or even 2GB, but not if you've got 4GB or more. And even then, who's going to want to continue using a system that's relying soley on the pagefile for doing stuff? If you're running out all the time, get more memory, or cut down on the parallel work. I really don't see the benefit of a pagefile for systems with large amounts of memory.

That's why I dislike the pagefile in principal. It just slows down the system and uses resources that could be better spent elsewhere. But that's just my opinion, and everybody's entitled to their own :)

You need to read up on what the pagefile is for, and what has hibernation got to do with it? What do you think hiberfil.sys is ?

[simplezz]

How is that clearly a problem with all of the above and not the machine running out of RAM ?

I'd like to see a screenshot of what you're running, how much memory Crysis is really using, and the BSOD. You were suggesting that running Crysis without a pagefile alone was the cause of a BSOD, and I'm saying, I find it hard to believe the game alone is using that amount of ram, unless it's 1) a bug. 2) you're running other things in the background. 3) You're running mods for the game.

The game does not crash with the pagefile enabled, yet it does when it is disabled, the main function of the pagefile is to use the HDD as virtual RAM when the physical RAM is maxxed out

So you don't notice a visible performance drop when the pagefile starts kicking in then? I've experienced it before, and the system grinds to a halt, especially in games. What I'm saying is, if you're always running out of memory, fine, get some more, but to rely on the pagefile all the time and by doing so degrading system performance, is asinine.

No pagefile, what does the system do when it runs out of RAM? It bluescreens (If you turn off the low memory warning)

On Windows perhaps. I've had low memory warnings on Windows before, but I can't say I've ever seen it blue screen (not to say it doesn't happen).

On GNU/Linux for instance, I've never experienced a total system lockup due to low memory. It's mostly just simple warnings and a few sigsegs.

[Noir Angel]

To disable the pagefile and constantly get out of memory errors is even more asinine. Linux still has swap partitions, and the same thing would happen if you had no swap partition, Linux isn't immune to the physical limitations of computer hardware,

[simplezz]

You need to read up on what the pagefile is for, and what has hibernation got to do with it? What do you think hiberfil.sys is ?

Like I said I'm not an expert on Windows. I didn't know Windows uses a separate file for hibernation. I'm used to Linux's swap partition/file which is used for both paging and hibernation/suspension.

[simplezz]

To disable the pagefile and constantly get out of memory errors is even more asinine. Linux still has swap partitions, and the same thing would happen if you had no swap partition, Linux isn't immune to the physical limitations of computer hardware,

I don't use a swap partition on Linux either. Never had a need for it. That's just my personal opinion though. I'm not suggesting everyone has to do it.

But I have a question, If you're constantly having to go to the swap because the system is low on memory, isn't it better to just add more memory than degrade system performance by using the disk as a memory substitute?

[UseLess]

Haha I'm not entirely sure how this turned into such a heated pagefile debate =P (if someone does want to hear my justifications, feel free to pm me)

If the OP is still here, I would suggest if you can afford the $30, the extra RAM wont harm. Will it make a massive difference? Depends on how you use your computer, it could do (check what your current useage is).

With regards to a pagefile, you can leave it on as any resources it uses to page out RAM is minimal (in the grand scheme of things). If you want to 'live on the edge' you can turn it off - if it all goes pear shaped, turn it back on =)

[simplezz]

Haha I'm not entirely sure how this turned into such a heated pagefile debate =P (if someone does want to hear my justifications, feel free to pm me)

I guess it was my fault for bringing it up. Sorry OP :(

I agree with the rest of what you said.

[Noir Angel]

I don't use a swap partition on Linux either. Never had a need for it. That's just my personal opinion though. I'm not suggesting everyone has to do it.

But I have a question, If you're constantly having to go to the swap because the system is low on memory, isn't it better to just add more memory than degrade system performance by using the disk as a memory substitute?

Sure, if you're technically proficient enough to do so, and can afford top of the range hardware. But even on high end systems the OS still swaps data in and out of vmem so obviously it's designed like that for a reason. If your OS is designed to do it, why not get the hint and just leave it alone?

[moeburn]

AMD Athlon II X4 620 | Sapphire HD 5770 1GB

Nice system :D

Haha I'm not entirely sure how this turned into such a heated pagefile debate =P (if someone does want to hear my justifications, feel free to pm me)

If the OP is still here, I would suggest if you can afford the $30, the extra RAM wont harm. Will it make a massive difference? Depends on how you use your computer, it could do (check what your current useage is).

With regards to a pagefile, you can leave it on as any resources it uses to page out RAM is minimal (in the grand scheme of things). If you want to 'live on the edge' you can turn it off - if it all goes pear shaped, turn it back on =)

Well I was only going to buy the xtra RAM if it would improve my average framerate in games, but it appears that it will only improve OS performance, loading times, and brief occurances of stuttering in games (pagefile access). Since none of these are really a problem for me, and all I'm looking to do is improve gaming framerates, I'll save the money for a new CPU later on instead. Or maybe I'll just go by an 1/8th and enjoy what I have :rofl:

Why on earth would anyone turn off the page file? I mean, I can understand setting it to a specific size so that it doesn't constantly change size... but turn it off? I mean, doesn't windows do that all on its own? I figure with a few decades of experience programming operating systems for gamers, Microsoft would have included some sort of mechanism to only use the page file when absolutely necessary...

[Detection]

Nice system :D

Well I was only going to buy the xtra RAM if it would improve my average framerate in games, but it appears that it will only improve OS performance, loading times, and brief occurances of stuttering in games (pagefile access). Since none of these are really a problem for me, and all I'm looking to do is improve gaming framerates, I'll save the money for a new CPU later on instead. Or maybe I'll just go by an 1/8th and enjoy what I have :rofl:

Why on earth would anyone turn off the page file? I mean, I can understand setting it to a specific size so that it doesn't constantly change size... but turn it off? I mean, doesn't windows do that all on its own? I figure with a few decades of experience programming operating systems for gamers, Microsoft would have included some sort of mechanism to only use the page file when absolutely necessary...

Because people think that the OS is constantly running from pagefile rather than RAM and thinking that forcing it to run purely in physical memory would make it faster, but as the OS does not run in the pagefile (Not in the sense that a lot of people think it does) it makes no difference, not in a good way anyway

Anyone who wants to read up on it

https://blogs.technet.com/b/askperf/archive/2007/12/14/what-is-the-page-file-for-anyway.aspx?Redirected=true

[Noir Angel]

Gaming is a lot more immersive when it's fluid and smooth. Alleviating loading pauses is just as conducive to smooth gameplay as increasing the framerate. Given that memory is so cheap, it's really a no brainer.

[moeburn]

Gaming is a lot more immersive when it's fluid and smooth. Alleviating loading pauses is just as conducive to smooth gameplay as increasing the framerate. Given that memory is so cheap, it's really a no brainer.

Right, but I don't experience the page-file-using stutterfarks that having too little RAM would cause. So as far as I can tell, I have more than enough RAM for all the games that I play, except for, like I said, when I'm flying a jet at mach 1 and it can't load the textures as fast as I can fly. But that is the only case that I can think of when I experience the effects of having too little RAM.

Or is that a VRAM issue?

[Detection]

Right, but I don't experience the page-file-using stutterfarks that having too little RAM would cause. So as far as I can tell, I have more than enough RAM for all the games that I play, except for, like I said, when I'm flying a jet at mach 1 and it can't load the textures as fast as I can fly. But that is the only case that I can think of when I experience the effects of having too little RAM.

Or is that a VRAM issue?

Could be a CPU issue too, I remember RAGE having texture streaming issues