Apache Hammers Microsoft Over Do Not Track

[Calum Veteran]

This is a new feature in IE10 which so far is only available on Windows 8. During the installation of Windows 8, if you choose to use the express settings option, it will default to turning DNT on. If you click customize, you are presented with a choice to keep it on or turn it off.

Well, that sounds fine to me, then. They're informing users it will be turned on by default or giving them the option to change it before it is turned on.

[Calum Veteran]

I haven't installed 8 and I have no interest in ever doing so.

And it's fine to tell the user DNT is enabled, the issue is them enabling it by default. It should either prompt the user (and not just if you do a custom install), or leave the header out entirely. All MS has succeeding in doing by defaulting it on in IE10, is ensure that advertisers will ignore it for IE10.

But the user is being prompted. It isn't being enabled by default. The user has two options when installing Windows 8: To use the Express feature or the Custom feature; before the user chooses either of those options, Windows 8 informs them that Do Not Track will be enabled if they choose Express. So they are being prompted and it isn't being enabled by default without the user knowing.

[theyarecomingforyou]

The problem is that advertisers are under no legal obligation to comply with DNT. Without that it is completely irrelevant.

[Shane Nokes]

The problem is that advertisers are under no legal obligation to comply with DNT. Without that it is completely irrelevant.

Correct. I personally feel this shouldn't be an option on their end. I feel that before the standard is ratified that it be put in that advertisers MUST honor DNT flags in a similar manner that telemarketers are supposed to honor the Do Not Call lists.

[123456789A]

Why would anyone WANT to be tracked in the first place?

[Shane Nokes]

Why would anyone WANT to be tracked in the first place?

It helps with contextual advertising, so that ads are more relevant.

Have you ever noticed that after you go to Amazon.com and search for something specific and then come back to Neowin you'll see ads that look like things you were just looking at, or are a direct competitors item?

That's supposed to be the main purpose of tracking. It does come in handy and does have a use, but some people do not like it.

[ichi]

Don't implement DNT as part of Express people will ask why such an important security setting is so obscure and requires digging to find.

They wouldn't ask about that "important security feature" if MS hadn't touted it as such. Ultimately users are being tracked the same no matter what DNT setting they choose.

[Shane Nokes]

They wouldn't ask about that "important security feature" if MS hadn't touted it as such. Ultimately users are being tracked the same no matter what DNT setting they choose.

That wouldn't be the case if Fielding wasn't screwing with Apache to prevent DNT from working. I mean what was the point of all the work he put into it if he's just going to pull this kind of crap?

[Redmak Administrators]

Who actually reads the express settings and makes a well thought decision?

[Shane Nokes]

Who actually reads the express settings and makes a well thought decision?

Did you ever see The Human CentiPad episode of South Park?

The whole point of that episode was about how no one reads things before clicking and how they really should.

This isn't necessarily an EULA, but it's still important to read the options as you set things up on anything. If someone doesn't read the options, that's their fault, not the fault of the person who created the Express option.

When did making an intelligent decision become a bad thing?

[Ryoken]

MS should just ask the user anyway during the express install, and force them to make a choice, have it neither on/off by default, make the user chose one before hitting next.

But the result would be the same, offer someone a choice and *most* people are gonna enable DNT.

[Calum Veteran]

Who actually reads the express settings and makes a well thought decision?

Not many people, probably. But that isn't Microsoft's fault :) That is the fault of the users who ignore what Microsoft are telling them.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

What are we even discussing at this point? The original issue was whether or not IE defaults to having DNT on, if you have to do a custom install to disable it then how can you possibly claim it's not the default setting?

[ichi]

That wouldn't be the case if Fielding wasn't screwing with Apache to prevent DNT from working. I mean what was the point of all the work he put into it if he's just going to pull this kind of crap?

Users are being tracked not because Apache changes the DNT flag, but because ad companies don't give a damn about it since no one is enforcing the standard.

And then even if some ad companies did actually care they could just easily argue that most users just go with the Express install and don't actually specifically choose to enable DNT, so going by the letter of the standard they have an excuse right there to keep tracking users.

Then again they don't even have to explain anything to anyone since they can just outright ignore the flag, so no matter what Apache does DNT (as it stands) is definitely not an "important security feature".

It doesn't work, it's about as useful as dropping a DoNotInfect.txt on your desktop and expecting Viruses to stay away from your computer.

[Shane Nokes]

Users are being tracked not because Apache changes the DNT flag, but because ad companies don't give a damn about it since no one is enforcing the standard.

And then even if some ad companies did actually care they could just easily argue that most users just go with the Express install and don't actually specifically choose to enable DNT, so going by the letter of the standard they have an excuse right there to keep tracking users.

Then again they don't even have to explain anything to anyone since they can just outright ignore the flag, so no matter what Apache does DNT (as it stands) is definitely not an "important security feature".

It doesn't work, it's about as useful as dropping a DoNotInfect.txt on your desktop and expecting Viruses to stay away from your computer.

That's because it isn't a standard yet /facepalm

What are we even discussing at this point? The original issue was whether or not IE defaults to having DNT on, if you have to do a custom install to disable it then how can you possibly claim it's not the default setting?

It doesn't default to anything. The user has to decide which setting to use. Express or Custom.

If you choose Express then it enables DNT. If you choose Custom then you can set it either way (along with many other settings)

That's what you don't seem to be getting. The user still has to make the choice regardless.

Didn't you say earlier you'd never installed Windows 8? If not I don't expect you to understand how the installer shows things to the user.

[123456789A]

It helps with contextual advertising, so that ads are more relevant.

Have you ever noticed that after you go to Amazon.com and search for something specific and then come back to Neowin you'll see ads that look like things you were just looking at, or are a direct competitors item?

That's supposed to be the main purpose of tracking. It does come in handy and does have a use, but some people do not like it.

I never noticed that, but then again, my browser is running in TFH enabled mode.

[Redmak Administrators]

If someone doesn't read the options, that's their fault, not the fault of the person who created the Express option.

If someone doesn't enable DNT it's their fault, not something Microsoft or any other company should worry about.

[FloatingFatMan]

Didn't you say earlier you'd never installed Windows 8? If not I don't expect you to understand how the installer shows things to the user.

For those that refuse to understand it...

[HawkMan]

It helps with contextual advertising, so that ads are more relevant.

Have you ever noticed that after you go to Amazon.com and search for something specific and then come back to Neowin you'll see ads that look like things you were just looking at, or are a direct competitors item?

That's supposed to be the main purpose of tracking. It does come in handy and does have a use, but some people do not like it.

I would rather have ads based on the site I visit, than ads based on what they think I want ads about based on my random surfing patterns throughout the day.

[Shane Nokes]

I never noticed that, but then again, my browser is running in TFH enabled mode.

Doubtful that Tin-Foil would help much in this case if you use cookies at all. ;)

[123456789A]

Doubtful that Tin-Foil would help much in this case if you use cookies at all. ;)

Tin foil keeps my cookies fresh.

[HawkMan]

Who actually reads the express settings and makes a well thought decision?

Surprisingly, the average "dumb" users. then they call an "expert" to ask what this "spy" thinkg is and if they shoudl click yes and leave it on or not.

[Shane Nokes]

If someone doesn't enable DNT it's their fault, not something Microsoft or any other company should worry about.

In that case then everything should be turned off by default on the OS, and you should have to enable them one by one, using that logic.

Why should they care if I have SmartScreen on? Why should they care if I don't have Windows Update enabled? Why should they care if I don't enable any sort of system protection?

In fact why even enable anything at all. Let's go back to building all or own stuff a piece at a time.

I think you've inspired me to hook up my old Commodore 64, and see if I can program myself a decent enough interface to be able to view webpages...just hope I don't forget to back it up to the tape drive before I turn it off at the end of the night. I'll also have to find where I put all that old networking gear for it and see if I can make any of it interface with my modern stuff.

;)

BTW this is more of what I predicted earlier. MS will get hammered regardless of what road they take with security.

[ichi]

That's because it isn't a standard yet /facepalm

It doesn't matter if it's a standard if no one enforces it.

/facepalm :shifty:

[Shane Nokes]

It doesn't matter if it's a standard if no one enforces it.

/facepalm :shifty:

Yes, and it cannot be enforced if it's not a standard... ...by the very definition of what it means to be a standard in normal industry jargon.

Is it just me or am I spending a lot of time talking in circles with about half the people I reply to?