Apache Hammers Microsoft Over Do Not Track

[Vice]

It's part of the install process. You can't just click an X to make it go away. You aren't in Windows when that box appears... there is nowhere to go but forward...

Okay then. I've not seen anything like this yet where is this dialogue box? When you install Windows 8?

[ichi]

Will someone else explain this to him? I keep trying but there must be some way in which I'm not being clear enough...

:huh:

Which part of "getting a response doesn't guarantee that you aren't being tracked" isn't clear enough?

Sure, ad companies could at some point be investigated, and some might be found guilty, and they might pay a fine... all that hasn't really stopped companies from misbehaving so far, has it?

The point, though, is that you can't verify if you are being tracked.

You said that a standards body could "easily confirm if the flag is being respected or not just by reading the response". Unless they actually open an investigation, for all they know they could just be pretending to be respecting it.

[a1ien]

Open source is a cancer and the virtual world would be better off if people killed it off.

[rfirth]

Okay then. I've not seen anything like this yet where is this dialogue box? When you install Windows 8?

Yes... towards the end of the install process. It's not a box, it's full screen and part of the same process where you enter your Microsoft account and choose colors for the start screen.

[Solid Knight]

...? So, the right thing to do is override browser settings and ignore the DNT setting just because its a default install option?

[Colin McGregor]

Again it doesn't 'automatically default' anything. You are given a very clear choice during the setup of Windows to either enable or disable DNT.

The user has to make this choice. It isn't just automatically done without them having been given an option, so will you please stop trying to spread this FUD!

I'm starting to agree with Stoffel when they say that some of you are being thick on purpose. It's not amusing...

it is a clear option in the setup, but to who?? You think my grandma knows what a send a do not track response means?? They need to leave this on and let the people that know what it is turn it off. Programs have no issues having toolbars and extra bs spyware autochecked in an install and make us uncheck so why can't ms do the same?

[ichi]

...? So, the right thing to do is override browser settings and ignore the DNT setting just because its a default install option?

IMO the right thing would be overhauling the standard so manual user activation isn't a requirement. Either that or just leave it alone, let the standard fail and start thinking about how to implement something that actually works.

Apache changing the DNT flag doesn't really solve anything, and I don't think they have any business in messing with this kind of browser settings anyway

[Shane Nokes]

:huh:

Which part of "getting a response doesn't guarantee that you aren't being tracked" isn't clear enough?

Sure, ad companies could at some point be investigated, and some might be found guilty, and they might pay a fine... all that hasn't really stopped companies from misbehaving so far, has it?

The point, though, is that you can't verify if you are being tracked.

You said that a standards body could "easily confirm if the flag is being respected or not just by reading the response". Unless they actually open an investigation, for all they know they could just be pretending to be respecting it.

By your standard then you can never trust anything, and everyone by default is a liar and should never ever be trusted.

it is a clear option in the setup, but to who?? You think my grandma knows what a send a do not track response means?? They need to leave this on and let the people that know what it is turn it off. Programs have no issues having toolbars and extra bs spyware autochecked in an install and make us uncheck so why can't ms do the same?

Colin, choosing Express will turn it on. Choosing Customize gives you the option. Most people are going to click Express...including those Grandmas out there :)

[Ryoken]

By your standard then you can never trust anything, and everyone by default is a liar and should never ever be trusted.

Laws, and enforcement, are not about trust. They are about proof.

GM can't just say their car is safe, it needs to be verified.

The problem with DNT is it can't be verified. Not without access to the live server and it's code. Making the whole thing a joke that can't be enforced.. Might as well pass a law about thinking, cause you have the same chances of proving it in court.

And no, I don't trust people just cause they say something. People Lie.

[ichi]

By your standard then you can never trust anything, and everyone by default is a liar and should never ever be trusted.

When it comes to publicly traded companies, definitely.

[tiagosilva29]

Open source is a cancer and the virtual world would be better off if people killed it off.

Cool story, bro'.

[BajiRav]

IMO the right thing would be overhauling the standard so manual user activation isn't a requirement. Either that or just leave it alone, let the standard fail and start thinking about how to implement something that actually works.

Apache changing the DNT flag doesn't really solve anything, and I don't think they have any business in messing with this kind of browser settings anyway

It wasn't a requirement. The advertising lobby added it to standards after Microsoft announced that DNT will be turned on in express. (too lazy to cite source)

[ichi]

It wasn't a requirement. The advertising lobby added it to standards after Microsoft announced that DNT will be turned on in express. (too lazy to cite source)

I don't know when it became a requirement (I've seen claims about that being after MS released IE10 but never with a source, nor any quote about what exact members of the committee introduced that requirement), but that's irrelevant anyway.

I mean, maybe it's somewhat relevant for the Apache-IE10 drama, but that's a red herring. The real problem is that it's a requirement now.

[BajiRav]

I don't know when it became a requirement (I've seen claims about that being after MS released IE10 but never with a source, nor any quote about what exact members of the committee introduced that requirement), but that's irrelevant anyway.

I mean, maybe it's somewhat relevant for the Apache-IE10 drama, but that's a red herring. The real problem is that it's a requirement now.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/06/default-do-not-track/

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/do-not-track-debate-reveals-cracks-in-online-privacy-consensus/5077

[ichi]

http://www.wired.com...t-do-not-track/

http://www.zdnet.com...-consensus/5077

Cool thanks (Y)

If ad networks have a saying on the definition of the standard (and they do because it's them who will have to willingly comply for it to work) this will be going nowhere fast.

It's in their best interest that DNT is either not widely used or unenforceable. Or even better, both.

[HawkMan]

I don't know when it became a requirement (I've seen claims about that being after MS released IE10 but never with a source, nor any quote about what exact members of the committee introduced that requirement), but that's irrelevant anyway.

I mean, maybe it's somewhat relevant for the Apache-IE10 drama, but that's a red herring. The real problem is that it's a requirement now.

But it's still not a standard, and ms is part for standards group and won't accept the defaul off req. default on or off doesn't belong in standards spec anyway

[ichi]

But it's still not a standard, and ms is part for standards group and won't accept the defaul off req. default on or off doesn't belong in standards spec anyway

Other than Government intervention I don't see how any of the pro-privacy parties of the committee could force the hand of ad companies, you'd need the standard to be compulsory and legally binding.

[HawkMan]

Well seeing as we're in or halfway in the EU. and the EU loves to force legislations for good or bad, I'm fairly sure that as soon as the EU gets a sniff of this DNT thing, they'll make a legislation saying all ad companies need to abide by it or they'll get fined out of this galaxy. At least the EU have the guts to do something like this and put the big corporations and ad companies in their place, which is behind the consumer and people.

[Shane Nokes]

Well seeing as we're in or halfway in the EU. and the EU loves to force legislations for good or bad, I'm fairly sure that as soon as the EU gets a sniff of this DNT thing, they'll make a legislation saying all ad companies need to abide by it or they'll get fined out of this galaxy. At least the EU have the guts to do something like this and put the big corporations and ad companies in their place, which is behind the consumer and people.

Eh, sometimes the EU is a good thing and sometimes they just throw their weight around in order to make themselves some money.

This is something I know more than a little bit about due to the way they kept fining MS into the ground while refusing to define how they wanted certain OS changes implemented for quite some time. They made a huge chunk of change off those fines...

[HawkMan]

The MS case is one I don't think they did the right thing, not to 100% anyway. But on the other hand, it is kind of MS who makes the OS and understands it, job to say what they can do so they can make an educated decision on what to do. and of course that's what happened in the end. it should just never have gone there in the first place.

Then on the other end of the scale you have the case where intel was clearly abusing it's might and they took them out for it. while the US mostly did nothing.