Q&A with Steve Ballmer ahead of Windows 8 launch

[myxomatosis]

I see the Microsoft kool-aid is a strong beverage? and it alters judgment ;)

[+LogicalApex MVC]

The Start Screen isn't going anywhere. The Start Menu is dead. Once it was removed, there is now way it will be coming back.

Its permanent death will depend on the reaction by users. It will stay dead only as long as Microsoft's reaction to Windows 8 isn't a mass exodus by users.

A classic example...

With Exchange 2007 Microsoft killed Public Folder support and told users it wasn't coming back. Then due to the consistent negative feedback from users they added basic support back in Exchange 2010 and even more support again in Exchange 2013. This is software, code can always be resurrected and/or rewritten.

Not saying I have any insight into MS' future plans, but I can assure you that there is no such thing as never bringing a feature back.

[coresx]

I think Microsoft have never been better. It has been pretty good the last few years. This year and next will be telling. A change but I don't think a clearcut doom outlook, more chance of being a success with all their new products and iterations.

What did people honestly expect Microsoft to do, roll over and die slowly ?

They have to change and people fear change. Give it time and see how things go.

[Dot Matrix]

Its permanent death will depend on the reaction by users. It will stay dead only as long as Microsoft's reaction to Windows 8 isn't a mass exodus by users.

A classic example...

With Exchange 2007 Microsoft killed Public Folder support and told users it wasn't coming back. Then due to the consistent negative feedback from users they added basic support back in Exchange 2010 and even more support again in Exchange 2013. This is software, code can always be resurrected and/or rewritten.

Not saying I have any insight into MS' future plans, but I can assure you that there is no such thing as never bringing a feature back.

Considering the Start Screen has more functionality and customization than the menu, it's permanent death is quite certain.

[Shane Nokes]

I'm surprised that he said Windows 8 is as big as Windows 95 in what it will result in for the company and computing because that is just completely false and if he truly believes that his a bigger idiot than I ever thought possible.

Uh, how can you deem a statement as false when the OS in question hasn't been released to the public as of yet?

If he's an idiot for proclaiming his views on what he thinks the OS will do in the market pre-lauch, then how does it make you look when you do the same thing, only with having the opposite view point?

Never call someone an idiot in one breath, and then do what you called them an idiot for in the next...

[Dot Matrix]

What did people honestly expect Microsoft to do, roll over and die slowly ?

Yes. I don't care if they shoot themselves in the foot, I want a Start Menu dammit! :rolleyes:

[BajiRav]

I really do not think they will embrace it as it's just too poorly executed. Also no thoughts on the rest of the stuff I said? The issue with not being able to see your running apps from the desktop whilst in a metro application and vice versa? - That is a big problem that goes unsolved today.

You mean just like iPad? "Normal people" don't seem to have issue with that. I sincerely believe that most normal people will be just fine as long as some metro-hater don't push them away from using it.

The real challenge for Microsoft is not Metro's usability but getting people to give it a chance against iPad (Android is dead on tablets, so not a factor).

[Vice]

Uh, how can you deem a statement as false when the OS in question hasn't been released to the public as of yet?

If he's an idiot for proclaiming his views on what he thinks the OS will do in the market pre-lauch, then how does it make you look when you do the same thing, only with having the opposite view point?

Never call someone an idiot in one breath, and then do what you called them an idiot for in the next...

Because Windows 95 was a whole different ball game. This is just a ****ty operating system while Windows 95 was a total revolution that ushered in era of home computing. The two events are miles apart in relevancy to computing. The guy is an idiot, let's not forget this is the guy who said "A phone for $500, subsidised? ha!" 2 years later iPhone all but had the majority of one of Microsofts core buisnesses, 4 years later Microsoft was hunting for scraps with just 3% of the market, a market they once dominated.

He is not a clever man and under his watch Microsoft has done nothing but be second to everyone else's innovation, they were last with an answer to the iPhone, iPad, Gaming, Search, and Linux servers. They even lost markets they started! I mean honestly how can you come up with Windows XP tablet edition and ship tablets and then lose the market to the iPad? It's unbelievable. Same thing happened with Email, they were leading with @hotmail addresses then along comes Gmail it's almost identical but with some key differences and Microsoft just sits on their brand name doing jack squat to attract new people and not listening to anyone and their market presence evaporates.

You mean just like iPad? "Normal people" don't seem to have issue with that. I sincerely believe that most normal people will be just fine as long as some metro-hater don't push them away from using it.

The real challenge for Microsoft is not Metro's usability but getting people to give it a chance against iPad (Android is dead on tablets, so not a factor).

People are willing to accept limitations on smaller form factors. I never once said Windows 8 wasn't designed for tablets. What I have always maintained is that it isn't a good operating system for our existing Desktops and Notebooks where we have large screens with plenty of room for UI elements like always on screen application task bars. When we have 15" tablets then I'd want easy to use task switching but on a 7" or a 9.7" display? It doesn't make as much sense to use screen real estate for that.

[Fraud OS 11]

Considering the Start Screen has more functionality and customization than the menu, it's permanent death is quite certain.

Uhm...how does it have more functionality and customization if I may ask? :woot: The only thing that comes to my mind is Live Tile notifications but then again the notification area of the Taskbar served the same purpose.

[Dot Matrix]

Uhm...how does it have more functionality and customization if I may ask? :woot: The only thing that comes to my mind is Live Tile notifications but then again the notification area of the Taskbar served the same purpose.

You just answered your own question. Not to mention, I can choose what tiles I have on there, color, background, and I can finally SEE what damn thing I'm clicking on as well, as it finally fits to higher resolution monitors. Plus, it fits to different kinds of input devices, and eliminates the mouse bias.

Now I'm pretty sure I just set myself up for you to yell at me for accepting Windows 8. I don't care, go ahead. It works. It works well. I can finally install an OS, and have the same UX across my devices, while having a UI that conforms to different input methods commonly found on the various types of PCs found on the market today. I love not having a desktop to fuss with on my HTPC, while still having the power of Windows in front of me. No other OS can do that.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Considering the Start Screen has more functionality and customization than the menu, it's permanent death is quite certain.

Beta Max was also better than VHS, but we know which one won that side of the war. There is no way of predicting where the chips will lay and there is no certainty.

[Dot Matrix]

Beta Max was also better than VHS, but we know which one won that side of the war. There is no way of predicting where the chips will lay and there is no certainty.

There is certainty, because the Start Menu was killed for being technologically inferior with the rest of today's devices on the market. I can't touch it, It's a pain on a remote driven HTPC, and it certainly doesn't scale well.

Windows 9 will see some minor changes to the Start Screen and that's it. Remember, the Start Menu saw similar resistance.

[Shane Nokes]

Because Windows 95 was a whole different ball game. This is just a ****ty operating system while Windows 95 was a total revolution that ushered in era of home computing. The two events are miles apart in relevancy to computing. The guy is an idiot, let's not forget this is the guy who said "A phone for $500, subsidised? ha!" 2 years later iPhone all but had the majority of one of Microsofts core buisnesses, 4 years later Microsoft was hunting for scraps with just 3% of the market, a market they once dominated.

He is not a clever man and under his watch Microsoft has done nothing but be second to everyone else's innovation, they were last with an answer to the iPhone, iPad, Gaming, Search, and Linux servers. They even lost markets they started! I mean honestly how can you come up with Windows XP tablet edition and ship tablets and then lose the market to the iPad? It's unbelievable. Same thing happened with Email, they were leading with @hotmail addresses then along comes Gmail it's almost identical but with some key differences and Microsoft just sits on their brand name doing jack squat to attract new people and not listening to anyone and their market presence evaporates.

You do know that you're basically parroting what people said about Windows 95 in respect to the whole '****ty OS' thing right? WIndows 95 wasn't universally loved upon release and people thought the whole start menu thing was doomed to die and was going to be repealed in the next OS version. They made jokes about how hard it was to figure out (even with the Click Here to Start) animation, and made jokes about how stupid it was to have to click something that said 'Start' in order to actually end a session or shutdown the PC.

As for how terrible Ballmer has done as CEO? Well he was at the helm for the release of Windows XP. The project that brought the consumer OS into the NT world. The OS that everyone pretty much universally loves now. It wasn't so when it was released and Ballmer was panned then. Vista was also panned when it came out, but hatred has somewhat mellowed as the more intelligent people have realized that most of the issue was poor drivers written by OEM's who didn't want to deal with the new driver models. He was also at the helm for 7 which is the fastest selling OS in history.

He was at the helm for their move into the gaming world which released the original Xbox, which allowed for them to have a product on the market and a name made in the gaming world. He was also there for the 360, which has now been the top selling console for 20 months in a row. It took over the worldwide bestseller slot as of June 2012.

During his reign Windows Mobile was at the peak for smartphone OS's. Did they make a mistake in not taking the iPhone seriously enough? Yes. The mistaken assumption was made that they would remain a niche just as other iDevices had.

What really pushed Apple to the top was ecosystem. That was something that Microsoft had not tried before in the mobile arena, because paradoxically they wanted to leave the phones somewhat open for software installations. They thought choice would win the day, but they were wrong. Android then came along, also with its own ecosystem, but they did something different than Apple. They created a less shut-in UI, and people have been eating it up.

Now Microsoft is resetting their strategy with a closed ecosystem, but also a UI that lets you get in and get out. It combines the concept of having a consistent UI, but one that isn't static. It updates, shows you new info and allows you to enjoy the phone, but also appear professional with its approach to UI design. It's a phone designed for both work & play. They realized that Windows Phone 7 was too consumer focused, they've even admitted this. That's why they are doing Windows Phone 8, in order to have a very secure system all the way around to attract the Enterprise customers back to the platform. So far from what I've seen it's working. Businesses that weren't even considering WP7 are looking very hard at WP8.

So does Ballmer make mistakes? Yes. Does he learn from them? Yes.

Steve Jobs also made several mistakes in his career, but was able to learn from those and turn them around. People had pretty much written Apple off back in the 90's and thought Apple was pretty much done. Jobs who had been pushed out came back, and managed to change everything.

So don't count someone out just because you don't like them, and want to revise history to look more negative than what it has been in reality.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

There is certainty, because the Start Menu was killed for being technologically inferior with the rest of today's devices on the market. I can't touch it, It's a pain on a remote driven HTPC, and it certainly doesn't scale well.

Windows 9 will see some minor changes to the Start Screen and that's it. Remember, the Start Menu saw similar resistance.

If the Start Menu returns, and again I don't think anyone can predict this at the moment, it would coexist with the Start Screen. It would more than likely reappear as an option to be turned on by power users or only on desktops. Either way, there are major problems with the Start Screen and Microsoft has shown historically that they will reintroduce features when their customer base demands it, like Public Folders in Exchange. There can also be massive improvements to the workflow in Windows 9 that reduce the need on a Start Menu, but we shall see.

There is no need to debate the problems with the Start Screen with you. We have been down that road countless times and you don't see anything wrong with it in the slightest, we agree to disagree here.

[Vice]

You do know that you're basically parroting what people said about Windows 95 in respect to the whole '****ty OS' thing right? WIndows 95 wasn't universally loved upon release and people thought the whole start menu thing was doomed to die and was going to be repealed in the next OS version. They made jokes about how hard it was to figure out (even with the Click Here to Start) animation, and made jokes about how stupid it was to have to click something that said 'Start' in order to actually end a session or shutdown the PC.

As for how terrible Ballmer has done as CEO? Well he was at the helm for the release of Windows XP. The project that brought the consumer OS into the NT world. The OS that everyone pretty much universally loves now. It wasn't so when it was released and Ballmer was panned then. Vista was also panned when it came out, but hatred has somewhat mellowed as the more intelligent people have realized that most of the issue was poor drivers written by OEM's who didn't want to deal with the new driver models. He was also at the helm for 7 which is the fastest selling OS in history.

He was at the helm for their move into the gaming world which released the original Xbox, which allowed for them to have a product on the market and a name made in the gaming world. He was also there for the 360, which has now been the top selling console for 20 months in a row. It took over the worldwide bestseller slot as of June 2012.

During his reign Windows Mobile was at the peak for smartphone OS's. Did they make a mistake in not taking the iPhone seriously enough? Yes. The mistaken assumption was made that they would remain a niche just as other iDevices had.

What really pushed Apple to the top was ecosystem. That was something that Microsoft had not tried before in the mobile arena, because paradoxically they wanted to leave the phones somewhat open for software installations. They thought choice would win the day, but they were wrong. Android then came along, also with its own ecosystem, but they did something different than Apple. They created a less shut-in UI, and people have been eating it up.

Now Microsoft is resetting their strategy with a closed ecosystem, but also a UI that lets you get in and get out. It combines the concept of having a consistent UI, but one that isn't static. It updates, shows you new info and allows you to enjoy the phone, but also appear professional with its approach to UI design. It's a phone designed for both work & play. They realized that Windows Phone 7 was too consumer focused, they've even admitted this. That's why they are doing Windows Phone 8, in order to have a very secure system all the way around to attract the Enterprise customers back to the platform. So far from what I've seen it's working. Businesses that weren't even considering WP7 are looking very hard at WP8.

So does Ballmer make mistakes? Yes. Does he learn from them? Yes.

Steve Jobs also made several mistakes in his career, but was able to learn from those and turn them around. People had pretty much written Apple off back in the 90's and thought Apple was pretty much done. Jobs who had been pushed out came back, and managed to change everything.

So don't count someone out just because you don't like them, and want to revise history to look more negative than what it has been in reality.

Balderdash.

First of all Windows 95 was loved by reviewers and users at its debut. I have no idea where on earth you're getting this "people didn't like Windows 95" nonsense from. It became the most popular operating system of the time far outpacing its predecessor and it was reiterated on with Windows 98 after just three years and people still talk about how much they loved Windows 95.

Secondly, although Ballmer was named CEO in January 2000 it was Bill Gates who was still making all the technical product decisions and they had very vocal and well documented shouting matches right up until Bill Gates left many years later. To give Ballmer credit for Windows XP would be like giving Tim Cook credit for the iPod, yes he was at the company at the time the iPod existed as was Ballmer when Windows XP debuted but neither were the instigators or fulfiller of those products. Back when XP shipped Ballmer was nothing more than an accountant to Microsoft while Bill Gates was still calling the shots with regards to product strategy. You may also note that the tablet was practically Bills baby, not Ballmers. Ballmer as CEO in 2003 had the tablet right at his fingertips and allowed it to fall through his grasp after Bill Gates left. This is one in a long string of foibles.

So lets recap, didn't do Windows 95, 98, 98 SE, 2000 or XP. Did do Vista which was a critical flop but meager success financially and did do Windows 7 which was a resounding success. But then he loses in mobile by lack of innovation, loses in search again lack of innovation, loses in email.. seeing a pattern here? Windows Phone 7 barely captured 3% of the mobile market after almost two years in the market. That is worse than RIM. If Windows Phone was its own company it would be on financial analysts watchlists for spiraling the drain just like RIM is. People have such little confidence in RIM that their market cap earlier in this year was lower than their assets meaning investors had such little faith they valued the company less than the sum of its parts and this is a company that still sells more phones than Microsoft!

A smart man would say gee this Windows Phone thing isn't quite working out, maybe people don't like our phones or the GUI on the operating system. Both iOS and Android are similar in the UI and they are selling millions of units, perhaps we should change our strategy to better match market trends? - But no, not Ballmer. It's full steam ahead with the RMS Metro, it's not enough that consumers don't want it and aren't buying it, now it's shoved on to their desktop platform. They should use mobile as a barometer, people buy a new phone very often and month after month they aren't buying Windows phones. In-fact the charts I've seen show Windows Phones market share has been shrinking not increasing. I'm not saying they are selling less phones than before just that everyone else is selling more than they are and Microsoft isn't reacting to that.

[Dot Matrix]

A smart man would say gee this Windows Phone thing isn't quite working out, maybe people don't like our phones or the GUI on the operating system. Both iOS and Android are similar in the UI and they are selling millions of units, perhaps we should change our strategy to better match market trends? - But no, not Ballmer. It's full steam ahead with the RMS Metro, it's not enough that consumers don't want it and aren't buying it, now it's shoved on to their desktop platform.

Can you show me where people dislike it? If I recall correctly, there are many, many who are in love with it. In fact, I seem to remember dozens of bloggers and industry analysts who are giving it the praise it deserves. The announcement of the Lumia 920 stole the show, and is now being used to compare the iPhone and flagship Android devices.

If the Start Menu returns, and again I don't think anyone can predict this at the moment, it would coexist with the Start Screen.

But it can't, which is why it was removed. It created too many UX problems, and had issues with the new multi-mon features. And since desktops perform many different functions nowadays, many of which make the mouse-only UI cumbersome to use, it doesn't make sense to bring it back either. If the Start Screen doesn't work out, you'll see a new launcher/environment that will replace it. Remember, technology is about moving forward, not back.

[Vice]

Can you show me where people dislike it? If I recall correctly, there are many, many who are in love with it. In fact, I seem to remember dozens of bloggers and industry analysts who are giving it the praise it deserves. The announcement of the Lumia 920 stole the show, and is now being used to compare the iPhone and flagship Android devices.

If people liked it, it would not have only 3% market share after 2 years. Market trends display people don't like it, only that small percentage of people who bought one liked it. It's a niche. Just like there are people who really love Clerks and it gets great reviews by critics and yet not a whole lot of people care about it.

Even after a 1 Billion (!!!) marketing campaign by Microsoft it all boils down to a meager 3% over two years. I mean just to look at this really, the Samsung Galaxy S3 sold more phones x2 than all Windows Phones combined over an almost 2 year period. And the Galaxy S3 has only been available for 3 months.

[Dot Matrix]

If people liked it, it would not have only 3% market share after 2 years. Market trends display people don't like it, only that small percentage of people who bought one liked it. It's a niche. Just like there are people who really love Clerks and it gets great reviews by critics and yet not a whole lot of people care about it.

Even after a 1 Billion (!!!) marketing campaign by Microsoft it all boils down to a meager 3% over two years.

That's not representative of anything. It's an uphill battle that Microsoft is only now beginning to fight with the help of Nokia.

Just put it this way, I have a friend who swears by Android... Lining up to buy a 920. He ditched his Galaxy SIII and is now using another friend's old Dell Venue. I also work with two people who have a Windows Phone on their own accord, and are impressed with it. So if that is happening, how is Windows Phone a failure? How is Metro a failure?

[Shane Nokes]

Balderdash.

First of all Windows 95 was loved by reviewers and users at its debut. I have no idea where on earth you're getting this "people didn't like Windows 95" nonsense from. It became the most popular operating system of the time far outpacing its predecessor and it was reiterated on with Windows 98 after just three years and people still talk about how much they loved Windows 95.

Secondly, although Ballmer was named CEO in January 2000 it was Bill Gates who was still making all the technical product decisions and they had very vocal and well documented shouting matches right up until Bill Gates left many years later. To give Ballmer credit for Windows XP would be like giving Tim Cook credit for the iPod, yes he was at the company at the time the iPod existed as was Ballmer when Windows XP debuted but neither were the instigators or fulfiller of those products. Back when XP shipped Ballmer was nothing more than an accountant to Microsoft while Bill Gates was still calling the shots with regards to product strategy. You may also note that the tablet was practically Bills baby, not Ballmers. Ballmer as CEO in 2003 had the tablet right at his fingertips and allowed it to fall through his grasp after Bill Gates left. This is one in a long string of foibles.

So lets recap, didn't do Windows 95, 98, 98 SE, 2000 or XP. Did do Vista which was a critical flop but meager success financially and did do Windows 7 which was a resounding success. But then he loses in mobile by lack of innovation, loses in search again lack of innovation, loses in email.. seeing a pattern here? Windows Phone 7 barely captured 3% of the mobile market after almost two years in the market. That is worse than RIM. If Windows Phone was its own company it would be on financial analysts watchlists for spiraling the drain just like RIM is. People have such little confidence in RIM that their market cap earlier in this year was lower than their assets meaning investors had such little faith they valued the company less than the sum of its parts and this is a company that still sells more phones than Microsoft!

A smart man would say gee this Windows Phone thing isn't quite working out, maybe people don't like our phones or the GUI on the operating system. Both iOS and Android are similar in the UI and they are selling millions of units, perhaps we should change our strategy to better match market trends? - But no, not Ballmer. It's full steam ahead with the RMS Metro, it's not enough that consumers don't want it and aren't buying it, now it's shoved on to their desktop platform. They should use mobile as a barometer, people buy a new phone very often and month after month they aren't buying Windows phones. In-fact the charts I've seen show Windows Phones market share has been shrinking not increasing. I'm not saying they are selling less phones than before just that everyone else is selling more than they are and Microsoft isn't reacting to that.

1. I already debunked this 'reviewers and users' loved 95 claim quite a while ago in another thread where someone claimed the same thing. I've spent the last 10 minutes digging, but still haven't found the post. I'll keep looking, but I have posts from several well known reviewers and user sites showing how much they hated Windows 95 on launch. Revisionist history...gotta love it.

2. Ballmer was CEO for almost 2 years by the time Windows XP was released. So yes he was in charge. As CEO he had the final say in what launched and what did not. I don't care if you want to re-write history just because it is convenient for you. So to claim that Ballmer was just 'present' is disingenuous at best, and revisionist history to serve your own ends at worst. So that's twice you're relying on changing the facts to suit what you want...how interesting.

3. I notice how you ignored my Xbox point since you can't really refute the whole story of how they've pretty much taking the console gaming world by storm. Hard to ignore that huge success. ;)

4. So to recap. Windows 95 wasn't well received on launch as you claim. Windows XP was not well received on launch either, but now has become the 'standard' by which PC operating systems are measured. Ballmer was CEO for about 20 months before the launch of XP, and yes he was at the helm. He was also at the helm for the XBox, XBox 360, most of Windows Mobile (when it was a HUGE top selling smartphone OS), Windows 7, Office 2010. I can keep going if you'd like...

You can try to call him an idiot in as many ways as you want. I'm sure he'll blow his nose with the $15,700,000,000 he's got from being such a massive failure. ;)

Oh how I wish I could fail in the same way as Steve Ballmer. ;)

[Vice]

1. I already debunked this 'reviewers and users' loved 95 claim quite a while ago in another thread where someone claimed the same thing. I've spent the last 10 minutes digging, but still haven't found the post. I'll keep looking, but I have posts from several well known reviewers and user sites showing how much they hated Windows 95 on launch. Revisionist history...gotta love it.

2. Ballmer was CEO for almost 2 years by the time Windows XP was released. So yes he was in charge. As CEO he had the final say in what launched and what did not. I don't care if you want to re-write history just because it is convenient for you. So to claim that Ballmer was just 'present' is disingenuous at best, and revisionist history to serve your own ends at worst. So that's twice you're relying on changing the facts to suit what you want...how interesting.

3. I notice how you ignored my Xbox point since you can't really refute the whole story of how they've pretty much taking the console gaming world by storm. Hard to ignore that huge success. ;)

4. So to recap. Windows 95 wasn't well received on launch as you claim. Windows XP was not well received on launch either, but now has become the 'standard' by which PC operating systems are measured. Ballmer was CEO for about 20 months before the launch of XP, and yes he was at the helm. He was also at the helm for the XBox, XBox 360, most of Windows Mobile (when it was a HUGE top selling smartphone OS), Windows 7, Office 2010. I can keep going if you'd like...

You can try to call him an idiot in as many ways as you want. I'm sure he'll blow his nose with the $15,700,000,000 he's got from being such a massive failure. ;)

Oh how I wish I could fail in the same way as Steve Ballmer. ;)

Yet more bunk from you, your posts get worse and worse by the day. But about that XBOX thing, RRod, massive recalls, something like a million defective consoles, PS2 outsold the original XBOX, PS3 has outsold the XBOX 360 this year by a million units, still no mobile competitor to Sony's PSP or Nintendo DS. Hardly a slam dunk but it's not dead or irrelevant I'll give you that much.

That's not representative of anything. It's an uphill battle that Microsoft is only now beginning to fight with the help of Nokia.

Just put it this way, I have a friend who swears by Android... Lining up to buy a 920. He ditched his Galaxy SIII and is now using another friend's old Dell Venue. I also work with two people who have a Windows Phone on their own accord, and are impressed with it.

I really beg to differ. It is representative of a lot, how can you just ignore the fact that Windows Phone 7 didn't sell? Two years, 3%. Do I need to say it anymore? The amount of money Microsoft has spent on it is ridiculous for what they've got out of it. It has done so poorly they decided to abandon support for all phones, phones that are still selling today and will be sold tomorrow. To them it is dead weight, not enough people bought them to even think about supporting them. No Windows Phone 8 updates for those phones, software written specifically for Windows Phone 8 will not run on Windows Phone 7.8 devices.

And you know everyone always says that "My friend" or "my co-workers". All it boils down to is you know a few people who think like you. People on here have been saying the iPhone 5 is a disaster and Apple is losing its followers and yet just today they announce it sold twice as many as the iPhone 4S on the first day of pre-ordering. You just can't take small pockets of opinion like on this forum or in a personal workplace and extrapolate market trends, you have to look at the real data and that says 2 years: 3%.

[Shane Nokes]

Can you show me where people dislike it? If I recall correctly, there are many, many who are in love with it. In fact, I seem to remember dozens of bloggers and industry analysts who are giving it the praise it deserves. The announcement of the Lumia 920 stole the show, and is now being used to compare the iPhone and flagship Android devices.

Indeed. Heck the top-rated phone on Sprint is the HTC Arrive. A phone that Sprint intentionally didn't support very well, even though it has the highest ratings of any phone they've carried.

It's even EOL'd and STILL has the highest ratings...that tells you something.

Practically the same story with the Lumia 900 almost anywhere you look. The user ratings on it are insanely high compared to the competitions products.

Users love Windows Phone devices. The primary problem has been one that MS has had for many products, marketing. They didn't really push the marketing until Nokia got on-board and the 900 was ready for release. They need to spend the cash on the marketing to get it to move. The Zune suffered the same fate. Users LOVED the devices & software. However almost no one took it seriously because of the almost total lack of marketing... :(

[Vice]

Users love Windows Phone devices. The primary problem has been one that MS has had for many products, marketing. They didn't really push the marketing until Nokia got on-board and the 900 was ready for release. They need to spend the cash on the marketing to get it to move. The Zune suffered the same fate. Users LOVED the devices & software. However almost no one took it seriously because of the almost total lack of marketing... :(

I guess a billion dollars can't buy love.

[Shane Nokes]

Yet more bunk from you, your posts get worse and worse by the day. But about that XBOX thing, RRod, massive recalls, something like a million defective consoles, PS2 outsold the original XBOX, PS3 has outsold the XBOX 360 this year by a million units, still no mobile competitor to Sony's PSP or Nintendo DS. Hardly a slam dunk but it's not dead or irrelevant I'll give you that much.

Uh excuse me? You want to get personal on this? Fine let's go there. Show me evidence that debunks my posts. If not, then I politely invite you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Xbox has been the top selling console in the US for the past 20 months, and has been the top selling console worldwide since June. Oh and it's not the first time that's happened either. It's just remained on top since then. It's been at the top spot worldwide before.

The number of units sold of the Xbox 360 worldwide?

As of April 2012 the number was over 67.2 million sold. That's sold,

The number of units sold of the PS3 worldwide?

As of April 2012 the number was over 63.9 million sold. Once again, that's sold.

So tell me how if they are outselling in the US, and now outselling worldwide units (according to every source out there) how the Playstation 3 is outselling them by just a million units this year alone?

Show me some numbers and figures to back this up from recognized groups that handle the tally for retail units sold.

Oh wait you won't...because your posts aren't anything resembling reality. Stings when someone bites back with the facts on their side doesn't it?

I guess a billion dollars can't buy love.

I said marketing, but that's ok. I guess you couldn't figure out the difference between money spent on a partnership between companies, and money spent on a marketing campaign. It's ok I understand your pain here. Reading is hard sometimes...look I can be childish too...aren't I a big boy mommy? :p

[Vice]

Uh excuse me? You want to get personal on this? Fine let's go there. Show me evidence that debunks my posts. If not, then I politely invite you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Xbox has been the top selling console in the US for the past 20 months, and has been the top selling console worldwide since June. Oh and it's not the first time that's happened either. It's just remained on top since then. It's been at the top spot worldwide before.

The number of units sold of the Xbox 360 worldwide?

As of April 2012 the number was over 67.2 million sold. That's sold,

The number of units sold of the PS3 worldwide?

As of April 2012 the number was over 63.9 million sold. Once again, that's sold.

So tell me how if they are outselling in the US, and now outselling worldwide units (according to every source out there) how the Playstation 3 is outselling them by just a million units this year alone?

Show me some numbers and figures to back this up from recognized groups that handle the tally for retail units sold.

Oh wait you won't...because your posts aren't anything resembling reality. Stings when someone bites back with the facts on their side doesn't it?

http://www.vgchartz....te-to-june-9th/

Pretty simple really.

PS3 has outsold the XBOX 360 every year since 2010. The only sting here is the burn your feeling right now from this post.

[Shane Nokes]

http://www.vgchartz....te-to-june-9th/

Pretty simple really.

PS3 has outsold the XBOX 360 every year since 2010. The only sting here is the burn your feeling right now from this post.

Not really, your posting data from a website that doesn't cite its source.

I asked you to post the data from recognized authorities that have the actual retail data and can cite where they got the information from.

You do know that I've worked as a Support Analyst at MS on Xbox, and had access to this data so I know the exact figures right?

It's ok...keep coming up with the wrong data from websites to support your conclusions...