cycling Lance Armstrong stripped of all seven Tour de France wins by UCI

[ahhell]

He is just wondering if any of his supporters at the time will now come in and admit they were on the wrong boat. Nothing wrong with that. Seems his "experience" is proving correct.

If he'd been proven innocent, I'd have been in here to apologise to him for not believing the rhetoric that was being spouted at the time.

Takes a big person to admit they were wrong/mistaken.

Do you think that he did this because of that? It was an attempt at damage control. Do you actually think that he would have admitted to it if he hadn't have been busted?

The guy is a hypocrite, liar, and a cheat.

He deserves zero respect.

[majortom1981]

The problem was that it wasn't "speculation" - there was comprehensive evidence that included eye witness testimony, financial transactions, blood samples and anecdotal evidence. It was enough for there to be an investigation and for him to be stripped of his titles. There's nothing wrong with being sceptical but the people I quoted went beyond that - they displayed a shocking lack of objectivity and rational thought. Instead people believed that there was a conspiracy against him, yet they believed that without any evidence and that's the issue - they'd rather believe a conspiracy without evidence than his probable?and now confirmed?guilt with evidence. Surely you see the issue with that?

This. If new evidence had emerged that showed there was a conspiracy to frame Lance Armstrong and that he was likely innocent then I'd have accepted that. The issue is that a lot of people base their opinions entirely on their emotions and ignore common sense and rational thought - those are usually the sort of people that would rather dig a bigger hole than accept they were mistaken.

I thought they didn't find anything in the blood samples and that they are going by his teammates saying he did it.

[threetonesun]

I thought they didn't find anything in the blood samples and that they are going by his teammates saying he did it.

IIRC, the found nothing at the time, for a variety of reasons, but retroactive testing with new methods showed doping.

But, again, everyone knew this was happening. EPO and similar substances were always a huge problem in cycling, it was just the "Americuh is good at bikes now" mentality that made some people believe it wasn't true.

[Guth]

I always thought this was non-existant nowadays with modern detection methods!

[XerXis]

Indurain used doping too, he got away with it because at the time the stuff he used wasn't on the list. All the cyclists have been using doping, all the great ones have been caught using illegal substances at least once. Give me ONE (just one) who hasn't.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I thought they didn't find anything in the blood samples and that they are going by his teammates saying he did it.

There were several tests that came back positive for banned drugs - however, fraudulent back-dated prescriptions were issued to get around them. And in 2001 tests suspicious levels of EPO were found in several samples but they didn't meet the standard needed for a 'positive' test. I seem to recall one of the issues was that a double test is required to confirm a positive test and only a single test was able to be performed.

The point is when you add up all the evidence it becomes very clear that he doped, hence why he was stripped of his titles.

[Noir Angel]

I'm still amused that so many Americans are convinced that this is some European conspiracy, we just hate americuuuh so much for being awesome. Don't lose sight of the fact that it was the US cycling authorities that initially brought the charges ;)

[Astra.Xtreme]

I'm still amused that so many Americans are convinced that this is some European conspiracy, we just hate americuuuh so much for being awesome. Don't lose sight of the fact that it was the US cycling authorities that initially brought the charges ;)

Funny that there hasn't been a single person here claiming that...

[theyarecomingforyou]

I'm still amused that so many Americans are convinced that this is some European conspiracy

Actually, the conspiracy theory was that the anti-doping agency had manufactured claims against a high profile athlete in order to increase its profile in the industry, bribing other athletes to give false testimony. Given that the USADA is an American organisation there was no implication that Europeans were involved. In fact I'm surprised nobody suggested that Obama was behind it. However, many Americans here refused to believe he was guilty or made excuses for him anyway (i.e. everybody else dopes so he's still a winner, etc) but that's a classic case of confirmation bias.

[matt4pack]

comparing doping to sleeping around... seriously...

It's pretty obvious Tiger was doping as well. His doctor got caught. Of course golf doesn't have the extensive testing of cycling.

[ahhell]

It's pretty obvious Tiger was doping as well. His doctor got caught. Of course golf doesn't have the extensive testing of cycling.

?

How would doping help a golfer? :s

[matt4pack]

?

How would doping help a golfer? :s

How did it help McGuire, Sosa, and Bonds? Hitting a ball farther maybe.

[LaP]

How did it help McGuire and Sosa? Hitting a ball farther.

Well in baseball you are not required to hit the ball in a little hole to score a point ;) Everyone who play golf know that a big part of the game is putting. And i don't think drugs can help you much on that. And this is where Wood was awesome.

[matt4pack]

Well in baseball you are not required to hit the ball in a little hole to score a point ;) Everyone who play golf know that a big part of the game is putting. And i don't think drugs can help you much on that. And this is where Wood was awesome.

Well in baseball you still have to make perfect contact with the ball which requires hand eye coordination just like putting so that's not much of an argument.

[ahhell]

Well in baseball you are not required to hit the ball in a little hole to score a point ;) Everyone who play golf know that a big part of the game is putting. And i don't think drugs can help you much on that. And this is where Wood was awesome.

Exactly. Golf is more about accuracy/finesse and not power. If it was all about power, John Daly would win every tournament.

[threetonesun]

?

How would doping help a golfer? :s

I would not be surprised to find out that some of them take drugs to stay more focused, as was popular in baseball once upon a time (and is still popular in many other sports).

[Nerd Rage]

When people refer to doping in regards to cycling, they usually are referring to blood doping (increasing your red blood cell count by removing and readding later after your body has recovered). This would have no impact on performance in skills that didn't require aerobic activity, ie: baseball and golf. So no, in the sense that it is talked about in cycling, baseball players and golfers don't get into doping as it wouldn't help them. They instead use strength enhancing drugs.

[linsook]

[matt4pack]

Exactly. Golf is more about accuracy/finesse and not power. If it was all about power, John Daly would win every tournament.

Whatever in both cases it's about hitting a ball and hitting the ball farther is beneficial. In baseball it's a homerun and in golf it puts you closer to the hole which lets you put it on the green faster. There's an extra step in golf which is putting but there's also an extra step in baseball which is having to play defense.

Yes it's not about oxygenated blood transfusions from cycling for stamina but growth hormones for more power.

[LaP]

Exactly. Golf is more about accuracy/finesse and not power. If it was all about power, John Daly would win every tournament.

It's like hockey. Drugs can help specially at 40 yo to keep a high level of performance. But drugs will never help you make a pass on the tape, see the play that is coming to react to it or shot the puck in a small hole. The fastest skaters/stronger players don't always makes the best players. In fact most of the best players was around 6 foots, not really strong and not really fast (Sakic, Yzerman, Ron Francis, Gretzky, etc).

Whatever in both cases it's about hitting a ball and hitting the ball farther is beneficial. In baseball it's a homerun and in golf it puts you closer to the hole which lets you put it on the green faster. There's an extra step in golf which is putting but there's also an extra step in baseball which is having to play defense.

Yes it's not about oxygenated blood transfusions from cycling for stamina but growth hormones for more power.

Yeah but what exactly did a guy like Sosa win ? Lot of homeruns that's about it.

[matt4pack]

Yeah but what exactly did a guy like Sosa win ? Lot of homeruns that's about it.

Baseball is a team game and golf isn't.

[HawkMan]

?

How would doping help a golfer? :s

it boggles the mind.

Whatever in both cases it's about hitting a ball and hitting the ball farther is beneficial. In baseball it's a homerun and in golf it puts you closer to the hole which lets you put it on the green faster. There's an extra step in golf which is putting but there's also an extra step in baseball which is having to play defense.

Yes it's not about oxygenated blood transfusions from cycling for stamina but growth hormones for more power.

You don't need strength to hit the ball further in Golf. being strong in fact would more hinder you due to the big arms being in the way of the technique. the club does 90% of the work, the way you swing the club to apply the force is the other 10%. Strength... well as long as you're strong enough to lift the club you're strong enough to hit a hole in one.

[linsook]

Well, I just did a quick google search on golf and doping and there seems to be some smoke.

Gary Player: First golfer to suggest mandatory drug testing. Has claimed that there are people on tour taking performance enhancing drugs.

Doug Barron: First golfer to get busted and banned for 1 year.

[matt4pack]

You don't need strength to hit the ball further in Golf. being strong in fact would more hinder you due to the big arms being in the way of the technique. the club does 90% of the work, the way you swing the club to apply the force is the other 10%. Strength... well as long as you're strong enough to lift the club you're strong enough to hit a hole in one.

It's comes down to equipment, technique, and strength for both. Swinging a golf club and swinging a bat are both swinging motions and in both cases hitting the ball farther is beneficial. Yes on Par 3's there is no benefit but on Par 5's guys will try to crush the ball to set up Eagle chances.

In fact in golf it would even be less of a hindrance as they don't have to play defense and run where it would slow you down like what happened to Bonds.

[Noir Angel]

Actually, the conspiracy theory was that the anti-doping agency had manufactured claims against a high profile athlete in order to increase its profile in the industry, bribing other athletes to give false testimony. Given that the USADA is an American organisation there was no implication that Europeans were involved. In fact I'm surprised nobody suggested that Obama was behind it. However, many Americans here refused to believe he was guilty or made excuses for him anyway (i.e. everybody else dopes so he's still a winner, etc) but that's a classic case of confirmation bias.

I've seen people make that accusation, read a few pages back.