Microsoft begs Web devs not to make WebKit the new IE6

[Max Norris]

Given that Chrome is faster than any other browser on Windows their approach seems to be working, obviously lack of D3D support isn't holding them back.

Erm Chrome and Firefox does use DirectX/D3D via the ANGLE Project, which transforms WebGL into DirectX calls.

I guess you have to be special type of blind to miss the irony and hypocrisy in this..

And yet you're preaching on about how right it is for them to be doing the exact same thing? Open source or not, breaking standards is bad.

[Boz]

Open source or not, breaking standards is bad.

Nobody is breaking standards. If anything Webkit implements them first.

[jakem1]

Only a problem if your browser isn't properly sandboxed. WebGL is no more dangerous than any of the other 2D or 3D acceleration APIs built into modern web browsers. And DirectX is a "standard" because Microsoft give incentives to game studios to leverage it. Google don't support it because Chrome is a cross platform browser, and it's easier to port code from one platform to another if you use the same API on each. Given that Chrome is faster than any other browser on Windows their approach seems to be working, obviously lack of D3D support isn't holding them back. Besides, the web relies on open source technologies, and Microsoft's 3D and 2D api's aren't open source, making them useless to web developers. I don't. I'm just tired of hearing Microsoft shills blathering on as if every company and person on the web has some obligation to design everything around their products.

Not as tired as I am of seeing you call everyone who disagrees with you a shill. If you haven't got an argument and need to rely on abuse it would probably be best if you just don't post.

[Athernar]

HTML5 test is not a valid benchmark. It tests things which are out of spec.

AFAIK, it doesn't even test anything but just queries if the browser supports it.

Bingo. HTML5 test is only useful for marketing departments, you need test cases to measure conformance - you can't just test for existence and hope for the best.

It shows in the field too. Webkit's implementations are often buggy and incomplete, whereas while Trident might not have the broad array of implementations that Webkit does, the standards it does implement are far more refined.

I don't. I'm just tired of hearing Microsoft shills blathering on as if every company and person on the web has some obligation to design everything around their products.

Okay dude, you're just being pathetic now. And I say this as someone that often agrees with you on things such as Windows 8, I think that OS is an abomination.

But this isn't about Microsoft, this is about every other browser that isn't Chrome and making sure everyone (Including the Microsoft I currently dislike) has a fair chance at rendering a page correctly, and not being shut out by a bunch of vendor specific cruft.

[Crimson Rain]

IE needs to die completely.. end of..

and, no, IE8, IE9 and IE10 will be the new IE6. Apple and Google along with Mozilla are following W3C and WHATWG in implementing new features and support for CSS3 and HTML and thus when we build web stuff today it just works across all of these browsers with most of the fancy effects and we are still jumping hoops and having to put up with Microsoft's IE crap.

So ironic but expected that Microsoft can't understand why they are terrible in this regard as well. IE 10 is better than all other IEs but it's STILL IE and it's still Microsoft, so we will continue supporting webkit because it evolves and browsers update themselves to be always current on user's machines while Microsoft still peddles their old proprietary crap..

Hey Microsoft, here's an idea for you.. MAKE IE based on webkit and help build a better webkit base since it's open and help developers develop for one HTML/web engine? Oh you don't want to, or you have to deal with your users who you screwed with terrible IEs? Well the web and internet in general won't wait for you. Nobody cares what you think anymore. You have shown us what web looks like with you and it's not a pretty picture and it's so ironic that we are being warned by MS about competing rendering engine not being "good" for us.

Just die already and stop whining since you are a decade late to the next generation.

What are you smoking? Mind to share with us?

[Stoffel]

Nobody is breaking standards. If anything Webkit implements them first.

Are you just being thick on purpose? Or do you really not understand what this article is all about?

Your blind hate for MS just affects your reading comprehension it seems.

All MS is asking is, don't make the same mistake we did, the web is on the right track, lets all try to be standards compliant.

[jakem1]

Rich coming from someone who is defending a company who killed web progress for a decade with their crap browser and is now criticizing open source webkit that has even better standards support than IE10 as being "proprietary". I guess you have to be special type of blind to miss the irony and hypocrisy in this.. The whole world is laughing at Microsoft. Riiight.. the ONLY proper test is the one sponsored by Microsoft that shows IE10 doing well with HTML5.. GOT IT!

That's your mistake. I'm not defending Microsoft per se, I'm just defending their request which is perfectly sensible. If they were saying that they want developers to use their own proprietary extensions I'd happily argue that that was a ridiculous position. However, all they're doing here is asking developers to use standards.

I'm well aware of Microsoft's history (and the irony of the situation) but you're the one who wants to see a repeat of that situation.

[HawkMan]

Nobody is breaking standards. If anything Webkit implements them first.

ok, lets break this down to you

Step 1. W3C creates a new spec for touch controls which all browsers can implement as a standardized platform

Step 2. All browsers start implementing it.

Step 3. EXCEPT, Chrome/Webkit since google instead decides to make their own incompatible version who is also inferior in many ways.

Step 4. All browser use the standard version except chrome, and some like Opera try to implement Googles version on top of the actual standard to support both versions despite obvious functionality differences and certain things who can't be supported and translated

You're saying this is good, that this is how it should be, instead of Google just using the actual accepted Standard which is also better ?

Seriously.

FYI this is actually worse than what MS did, as back then there was a serious lack of standards, and most of the new proprietary stuff MS implemented didn't have a standard and didn't exist before. Google on the other hand is purposely breaking a standard.

[ArialBlue]

What are you smoking? Mind to share with us?

-webkit-weed

[Crimson Rain]

based on what? From what I see, and numbers say it all, they are following the standards the closest (btw Maxthon is webkit as well). IE10 is dead last.

And stop with this Google is doing this sh**.. Webkit is NOT Google.. Webkit is everyone. IE is Microsoft only.. this alone should make it obvious to you that MS is full of crap.

Please go away. If I ask you, "can you cook Bibimbap?" and you answer yes, it doesn't mean you can cook it let alone properly. That's what your quoted "test" does. So please, learn about things before talking or you will only embarrass yourself like you are doing now.

[Crimson Rain]

...while 99% [marketshare] on mobile makes it a standard...

ok. I should have read this quote before. Then I wouldn't bother replying to a silly kid like you.

-webkit-weed

Figures. I was hoping it'd be weed instead of -webkit-weed.

99% market share means -webkit-weed is the standard, I guess.

[pes2013]

Apple and Google along with Mozilla are following W3C

Since when is WebGL following W3C?

[Noir Angel]

Why the **** support any company which wants to make a web developer's life hard?

You mean like Microsoft did for nearly a decade? pot, kettle, black

Peacekeeper is not a valid benchmark. It tests things which are out of spec.

It doesn't account for them in the final score either. Peacekeeper is mainly a performance benchmark and Chrome blows IE apart on that front.

Not as tired as I am of seeing you call everyone who disagrees with you a shill. If you haven't got an argument and need to rely on abuse it would probably be best if you just don't post.

Pretty rich coming from a guy claiming that I "knew nothing" and then when proven to be wrong went off at an alternate tangent rather than admitting so.

[HawkMan]

It doesn't account for them in the final score either. Peacekeeper is mainly a performance benchmark and Chrome blows IE apart on that front.

Of course it does peacekeeper doesn't test real world situations performance and Chrome is coded specifically to score high on the test,

[Noir Angel]

You mean like Microsoft coded IE9 to cheat Sunspider? I've been using Peacekeeper since it was made available and I have always found it's findings in line with what I actually get out of real world usage.

[spudtrooper]

It's irrelevant? Having everyone access to the engine's base and being able to build upon it, improve it, independent from any one company is irrelevant to you?

Yeah, please. You clearly don't know what you are talking about nor you have an idea of how open source works.

It matters because Microsoft can follow W3C standards now and when it gets 80% of marketshare again they can do the same thing they did with IE6 and nobody can do anything about it. You don't see how that's a possibility?

With webkit that can't happen because it is now owned, nor developed exclusively by a single company. How can you people not get that.

The reason IE is a slower lifecycle is MS supports its corporate apps with such longevity so they can regain their investments. When you spend 10 million dollars to implement a new ERP system, you can give a rats ass about the latest and greatest CSS gimmick, what you want is a browser that works and the best thing to make sure that it works and is supported perpetually is that it adheres to the standards approved by the standardization body. Being able to modify the engine/change things and hack for the sake of hacking does NOTHING to improve the industry, in fact it greatly detracts from the ability to build manageable apps.

also, you seem to like the sound of your own voice. Maybe if you scream it enough people will believe it? lol

[Athernar]

You mean like Microsoft did for nearly a decade? pot, kettle, black

If Microsoft were trying to act like they're the saviours of web standards you'd maybe have a point. But since all they're doing is trying to influence developers to write standards-compliant code that benefits everyone, rather than proprietary Webkit-specific code that only benefits Apple and Google, you have no point.

And on top of that, you're really starting to look petty. Microsoft may be retarded, but they're not always wrong.

[jakem1]

Pretty rich coming from a guy claiming that I "knew nothing" and then when proven to be wrong went off at an alternate tangent rather than admitting so.

You don't know what you're talking about which is why you have to rely on insults. You constantly undermine your own arguments with your nonsensical personal attacks and it's not worth discussing anything with you if you can't post sensible comments.

[nub]

Ignorant IE Hating. Internet Explorer is in the right here and is following the spec. You harp on and on about spec compliance, yet when it comes to this it doesn't matter? This is not a deficiency in IE that Microsoft is asking people to fix. This is IE following the spec to the letter and people not using proper code. Since people are never going to get their heads out of there asses, IE should just start parsing -webkit prefixed CSS like opera. Then we can all pretend we're webkit just like we all pretend we're netscape.

http://webaim.org/bl...string-history/

Market share means nothing (or should anyways).

Vendor specific prefixes are a bad a idea and were a bad idea and now we're seeing the result of it. Vendor specific prefixes should have never been implemented in any version of the browser designed for the average user. It causes this horrible mess of a situation.

[Crimson Rain]

based on what? From what I see, and numbers say it all, they are following the standards the closest (btw Maxthon is webkit as well). IE10 is dead last.

Sorry to quote this again but I had to point out this example of 448 score chrome fail: http://newilk.com/te...eholder_styling

If this is not enough to shut you up, you either have logic issues or are one of the best example of fanboi.

PS: Assuming I'm not wrong, this is the specific relevant test in html5test.com : http://html5test.com/compare/feature/form-other-placeholder.html

As you can see, most browsers get full points in this test while only IE10 and Firefox support it (almost) properly.

Out of your 448 point chrome (or webkit), there is huge percentage of points awarded for saying "yes, I can cook 5-star Bibimbap" while what it cooks may be worse than eating trash from garbage dump.

So for the last time, do not quote html5test again. It is a great site for a quick overview. But it is not solid, often misleading and tests **** loads of things that are not part of HTML5 or not even standards.

By the way, Chrome is a great browser. So is IE10 and Firefox. I personally do not like firefox except firebug (<3).

[Silver47]

I find this entire thread hilarious.

I don't think anyone on this site will agree that IE6 was the most awesome browser of all time. Hell I was using FireFox to escape it back when I was on XP. Microsoft even want it to die for Christ's sake, and that's saying something.

So long story short, IE6 shall be regarded as the dark ages of the internet from which FF and Opera inspired a renaissance.

Then we got IE7. At first I ignored it and carried on using FF in Vista, until I had to do a reinstall and didn't bother using it and carried on used IE7 as it had tabbed browsing and well, worked. Still wasn't perfect but was a step in the right direction at least for Microsoft standards wise can we not all agree?

Next up IE8. Does anyone remember using the IE8 beta's and watching all the sites fall over unless it was in compatibility mode? Again was Microsoft not trying to make a better standards compatible browser? Still wasn't quite there though was it, and performance needed a swift kick in the arse, again I think we can all agree on that?

Close, but no cigar.

Then we had IE9 that showed the world that Microsoft was serious about the web again. Supporting part of HTML5 and CSS3 with a great performance boost as well. And now, a year and half later we now have IE10. If anything I think everyone should be supporting Microsoft's catch up over the past few years.

But the best thing I find hilarious is the bashing that IE isn't HTML5 standard compatible? Hate to point this out, bit of a small detail but HTML5 ISN'T A FREAKING RATIFIED STANDARD YET! Once W3C has ratified it and said "Hey everyone, this is what you should be doing" and IE(insert version number at the time) isn't standards compatible, then yes go ahead, bash away.

No really I won't stop you, hell I'll join in with you. Microsoft have time to do it, they have till 2014 till the recommendation is out so they don't have an excuse. I don't think you'll find many people defending them for being late.

Hell I think we should start making bets when the IE11 preview will come out. I give it 1 month after IE10 for Win7 comes out.

[Boz]

IE across the board sucks and from IE6 to IE9 has broken the web over and over again.. and then Microsoft starts coming out and complaining how everyone is using webkit (an open source browser engine that is absolutely KICK ASS) and because they are adding new features (who btw, will most likely be adopted by WHATWG and W3C eventually).

Wtf are we talking about.. and yes.. IE 10 sucks compared to every other browser. Just because it's a bit more compliant with HTML5 as a standard still doesn't make it great.. it makes it suck less.

[HawkMan]

IE across the board sucks and from IE6 to IE9 has broken the web over and over again.. and then Microsoft starts coming out and complaining how everyone is using webkit (an open source browser engine that is absolutely KICK ASS) and because they are adding new features (who btw, will most likely be adopted by WHATWG and W3C eventually).

Wtf are we talking about.. and yes.. IE 10 sucks compared to every other browser. Just because it's a bit more compliant with HTML5 as a standard still doesn't make it great.. it makes it suck less.

I see you're ignoring all the posts you can't refute and argue with again, and just sprouting bull crap about how awesome Google and Webkit is again.

*yawn*

[Boz]

I see you're ignoring all the posts you can't refute and argue with again, and just sprouting bull crap about how awesome Google and Webkit is again.

*yawn*

You and others didn't refute anything but just whine and defend garbage that Microsoft is and was in regards to IE browsers. The reason web is still having trouble moving forward is Microsoft and IE and nobody else. But that goes over your head.

The point of Microsoft whining is not about HTML5 and standards.. it's about them losing dominance and being completely irrelevant on mobile. And that's completely their fault and is completely disingenuous (but what else do you expect form that company who gave us IE6) to come out and whine how open source engines are introducing new features that IE can't support. Hey, guess what, the world doesn't care about Microsoft anymore. The world has moved on. We build stuff for webkit, gecko because stuff just works and for the past years we got stuck with IE garbage and having to write hacks and tons of other crap because of Microsoft (and not just IE6.. IE7, IE8, IE9.. they ALL suck). The web would be a better place without them. And nobody cares about IE10. Because Microsoft is unreliable Today it might be somewhat following HTML5 standard, but tomorrow Microsoft will bring more of the proprietary extensions (that are already happening btw with WinRT) and they will break everything again so they can try to hijack the web again towards their own interests.

So they are a joke of the developer world. Every serious web developer LOATHES Microsoft and IE.. and laughs their ass off at Microsoft telling anyone anything about compatibility and standards, especially comparing open source engines and others to their proprietary IE6. The biggest irony of all.

[HawkMan]

Again, the standards organizations MADE a standard for touch controls that all browsers decided to follow. Google decided to make their own incompatible and non compliant and in fact a worse implementation. of touch controls and not implement the standard one.

you keep ignoring this little fact, the standard already existed, Google's method isn't going to be a standard, they already had a standard, a better standard.

And we're not defending MS, we're arguing to Google shouldn't make their own standards when there are already standards for it.