Disparity of rule enforcement between Neowin's News and Forums

[Japlabot]

I've noticed that there is a lotof personal attacks and name calling happening in the News comments. Just do a search on the page for words like "Stupid". There are also rules against "flame bait", which the Neowin news team are doing themselves by trying to make provocative articles to drive hits.

If sny of this was posted on the forums, it would be cleaned up quicker than it was posted.

I used to read all the comments, but there is no more sensible discussion going on in their, just a lot of flame wars. The intelligence level going on is like that of a 5 year old.

I kid you not, I see more sensible discussions on reddit and porn sites (Yes I read the comments on those too, there are some real gems on there).

I don't know if this is an enforcement problem or technical problem or both.

The forums obviously have a lot more features to be able to click onto someone's name and see their background (eg:Join date, Post count, search all their post history to see if they are a regular troll or just one post is going too far), but news posts can't be searched easily, so there is no accountability for the posts made. There is no report button on iOS/iPad either.

[cork1958]

Edited:

I can see a warning coming if use the reply I had typed out!!

Have to agree with you though.

[Japlabot]

Edited:

I can see a warning coming if use the reply I had typed out!!

Have to agree with you though.

You could have said it without fear of warning if this was a news post!

[cork1958]

Very doubtful!!

[jakem1]

I've noticed that there is a lotof personal attacks and name calling happening in the News comments. Just do a search on the page for words like "Stupid". There are also rules against "flame bait", which the Neowin news team are doing themselves by trying to make provocative articles to drive hits.

If sny of this was posted on the forums, it would be cleaned up quicker than it was posted.

I used to read all the comments, but there is no more sensible discussion going on in their, just a lot of flame wars. The intelligence level going on is like that of a 5 year old.

I kid you not, I see more sensible discussions on reddit and porn sites (Yes I read the comments on those too, there are some real gems on there).

I don't know if this is an enforcement problem or technical problem or both.

The forums obviously have a lot more features to be able to click onto someone's name and see their background (eg:Join date, Post count, search all their post history to see if they are a regular troll or just one post is going too far), but news posts can't be searched easily, so there is no accountability for the posts made. There is no report button on iOS/iPad either.

I just read your post with the reply calling you stupid. Although I don't think a personal attack was warranted I think your post was full of the sort of flamebait you're complaining about.

[RossDundas Veteran]

This has been a problem since the very early days of the net. People will post things in a public forum and act in a manner that would have serious consequences in "The Real World". I run my own IT consultancy here in Aberdeen. I always have told my staff and contractors this and I think it can apply generally: People have to accept responsibility for their actions and the consequences for those actions.

Freedom of speech is a fundamental right but with that right comes responsibility. People have to realise that in extreme cases over this past year people have died because of what has been posted online. This is an extreme example but it is true. I've been asked by clients in HR investigation cases to trace ip addresses and look at server logs and you have to realise that the neowin staff should they be sufficiently motivated could do the same. This could lead to real world consequences for you now and in the future. People have to realise that in a few clicks I can access information that I myself have posted online nearly 15 years ago that makes me cringe and current and prospective employers do the same. What you post online lasts forever. Remember that.

It may become necessary to require that users provide their full real name and address as part of the registration process that is periodically verified against public databases and apply this retrospectively on next sign in to prevent defamatory and threatening behavior.You have to realise that this could have another nasty side effect if this continues an increase in costs which may force Steve and his team to make some unpopular decisions to ensure the sites survival.

[Scorpus Veteran]

There is an ongoing discussion among the staff in regards to comment quality, but I do have to agree that often the comments section can be hostile, full of flaming and generally unpleasant.

The problem is that if we start enforcing the rules heavily we'll be met with backlash. The usual "the mods will just delete the comment" sort of discussion will start, etc.

[MikeChipshop Member]

First off, don't compare staff news items with the comments underneath. The point of a lively news item is to promote varied and healthy discussion. Which is some thing the news team are employed to do.

However the point of failure is the members themselves that somehow can't keep a civil tounge in there heads.

Best thing to do if you see an abusive post is to report it straight away and allow the staff team to deal with it.

There is an ongoing discussion among the staff in regards to comment quality, but I do have to agree that often the comments section can be hostile, full of flaming and generally unpleasant.

The problem is that if we start enforcing the rules heavily we'll be met with backlash. The usual "the mods will just delete the comment" sort of discussion will start, etc.

I for one would welcome this. Along with the abolishment of all firearms/guns threads and political/religious debate. This sections have proven to get out of control and attract flaming, trolling and childish behavior. Maybe time they had their day?

A reason i stopped coming to Neowin for many years (and the reason i don't buy a subscription any more) is the amount of childish abuse that crops up for any reason. It's time for the moderators to take a more hard line stance on obvious trolling, name calling and flame baiting. You only have to read the comments on websites such as Smashi

[neo1911]

I totally hate personal attacks. Classic example is if you publicly say against Microsoft, you are labelled Apple or Google fanboy.

[Japlabot]

I just read your post with the reply calling you stupid. Although I don't think a personal attack was warranted I think your post was full of the sort of flamebait you're complaining about.

If you said that what I was saying is stupid, that would not be personal, but if you said that *I* am stupid, then it would be.

[jakem1]

If you said that what I was saying is stupid, that would not be personal, but if you said that *I* am stupid, then it would be.

Yes, I agree with that which is why I said that the personal attack was unnecessary.

[Barney T. Administrators]

We try to moderate as even handedly as possible. Unfortunately sometimes comments don't get seen as quickly as they should. Please feel free to use the report function or PM a moderator if you see something that needs addressing. We are all trying to make this as friendly a place as possible.

Please do not talk about specific moderators or moderator actions as this is not allowed here.

Thanks!

[Andre S. Veteran]

There is an ongoing discussion among the staff in regards to comment quality

That's good to know. I hope it is fruitful and leads to concrete actions like new rules (i.e. "put some thought in your posts - low-content posts are material for a warning") and their subsequent enforcement.

The problem is that if we start enforcing the rules heavily we'll be met with backlash.

Why do you fear your community? Isn't that, in itself, a huge red flag that's something's wrong with this community? If you start putting the bar higher on post quality and that is met with backlash, then I say some pruning was in order anyway and the community will be better off without these elements.

[Rickkins]

IMHO, there is a certain cadre that believes that they can flame-bait, rightly or wrongly, with total impunity. IMHO

[tiagosilva29]

I don't even bother reading the news these days. "Microsoft" this and "Windows" that. Meh.

[HawkMan]

The problem is that news comments are horrible to moderate to start with, as there can be hundreds of comments to a single news piece. and while on the forum all posts are in single threads and you can just check the new content to keep up with moderation. in the news, every comment section is like a forum of it's own with multiple threads that get forked into new threads that get forked into new threads that....

[Luc2k]

You can't expect much from the comments when some of the titles and/or articles themselves are flamebait, but flamebait brings many more page views than impartiality and objective approach.

[neo1911]

You can't expect much from the comments when some of the titles and/or articles themselves are flamebait, but flamebait brings many more page views than impartiality and objective approach.

True and not true. Remember the impartial article regarding piracy? It was not flamebait. It was in fact the most popular article of last year. With that being said, anything from the trio (Apple Google Microsoft) draws maximum attention.

[Orange Battery]

I think we should be able to post negative comments, but they do need to be constructive and not aimed at causing offence.

The one thing that annoys me the most, are the members that reply with messages aimed to make you look stupid.

There have been many occasions when I will reply to a topic with my general feedback or opinion, only to have someone break it down completely, and end up making out shouldn't be responding at all.

Most of the time I now days look at who is posting and respond based on the frustration I may have to deal with when reading the crazy responses of some users.

[spaceelf]

Could be worse...they asked if I wanted to help once.

[the evn show]

Why do you fear your community? Isn't that, in itself, a huge red flag that's something's wrong with this community? If you start putting the bar higher on post quality and that is met with backlash, then I say some pruning was in order anyway and the community will be better off without these elements.

Your position assumes the superiority of some sort of cultured or reflective discussion over trolling and half-assed comments. I agree with you, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a community that has had ~10 years of 'progress' in that direction to lash-out if some authority tried to take it away. Imagine how trying to take the word "***" away from 4-chan would go over. Moderators have a right to dictate the tone of discussion that occurs but that doesn't make it right to do so: websites belong as much to the users as to the owners because without the users the site has no value.

The one thing that annoys me the most, are the members that reply with messages aimed to make you look stupid. There have been many occasions when I will reply to a topic with my general feedback or opinion, only to have someone break it down completely, and end up making out shouldn't be responding at all.

Suppose you say something outrageous (like "The holocaust didn't happen. 'The jews' faked it for sympathay from the league. It's a lie told by the French to stigmatize Germans. Also it's a cover up of their control over the media..."). Suppose I build a counter argument that highlight all of the fallacies in your position, I point out factual errors, and then introduce credible support for the 'real story'. You come off looking like an idiotic jerk at the end of it all. Why is that a bad thing? You said something crazy, now everyone can see exactly why it's wrong. That your feelings might be hurt or you might lose face is no reason to let a crumby post go unchallenged.

My example is extreme - so far as I know there have never been holocaust denial posts on Neowin - but the principle applies generally: bad information should be challenged and fallacious arguments should be pointed out. If it means people are less likely to post things they haven't carefully considered then so much the better. You might argue that opinions about whether Google is good or evil don't need to hold up to standards of academic rigor but I can simply disagree and challenge you. It is possible to have poorly thought out opinions or to provide feedback about topics which is uninformed - in those cases I see no reason that you or I should have an obligation to keep quiet.

I used to make detailed deconstructions of crappy posts here (say 4 or 5 years ago). My goal wasn't to convince the poster they were wrong: that almost never worked - they'd just double-down on crazy - my goal was to put out good counter information for the undecided third party who stumbles into the thread and didn't know what to think. I stopped doing it because I no longer think there's a reason: there are too few people concerned with facts and understanding to make it worth the time spending an hour researching a reply. I save that sort of effort for other venues where I can educated other people and they will return the favor by pointing out flaws in my arguments.

For what it's worth: that's a community standard and not something the moderators can really enforce without shutting down all discussion. It seems like the community is on your side (people should be allowed to post opinions without defending them, all opinions are equally valid) and not on mine (some people have crappy opinions and deserve whatever shame comes from pointing out their disordered thought).

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

I see this in the forums. Some members can say and do as they please while others get warned. A tad of selective moderation.

[xendrome]

I don't know if this is an enforcement problem or technical problem or both.

To be quite honest, in my experience, it's an issue with people not reporting the comments in question. Staff does this voluntarily and most of us have full time jobs, so to go through all the comments is impossible. We rely on the users to help us out be using the "Report" button next to any comment that violates the rules found here - http://www.neowin.ne...tion=boardrules

Stuff get's missed from time to time, I wouldn't assume it's because of any other reason then it wasn't reported or seen by a mod.

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

I agree but I was not speaking of myself. I see stuff that should be moderated but it is not. Maybe because no one reported it?

[Luis Mazza]

It is very hard to get to realize when someone is trolling. I think it is trolling when the person is repeatedly trying to get you to post repetitive information, while deviating from the subject or the nature of your arguments. That is a flamebait and a troll behind it.

We should report this and pray for the moderator's intelligence to realize what's wrong. People that call you a troll because they disagree with two or three posts of yours, are actually the ones who are trolling. This is called defensive attack and they should be reported and warned. This will improve the quality of the discussions and make the kids (even the oldest 30something ones) behave. :)