Son billed $781 after dad dies waiting for ambulance

[Clirion]

You seriously do have issues, you are pretty much ignoring what jamem1 is saying..

Everyone knows the UK health care is NOT free, but it is a forced, small payment required by all tax payers.. we don't get hit with any bills for things like ambulance services... if you can't afford it or are unemployed therefore paying NOTHING (ZERO, NADA..) you STILL receive the health care you require.

I knew the health sector was private in the US but i'm deeply shocked that you receive bills for calling the ambulance service, this must be really hard for poor families in emergencies.

Our health service isn't perfect but it's good to know we can receive treatment and not worry about bills.

A bill is always produced. Normally it goes to insurance. If one does not have insurance, it goes to medicare/medicaid.

However, in this instance, it went to the family. No idea why.

[psionicinversion]

in the UK it is "free" in the sense cus we pay national insurance which is mandatory but its also at the cost of putting the NHS billions and billions in debt. when we pay for medicine at the pharmacy the cost is about ?8 per prescription whether the medicine costs them 20pence or ?300 its still ?8. The biggest drain on health insurance is fat ppl (no offense) its just the case through heart related stuff, diabetes all that; same as in US. Also another strain is because people are living longer, need care for longer, replacements parts like hip joints etc help towards bills in care homes. all draining. Im 30 and my generation might not see a state pension by the time we retire cus there wont be any money to pay it.

Wasnt Obama care supposed to provide free health care in certain situations or something? It wont work cus america is to large as a country and in terms of ppl in the country. It would bankrupt the US if it went free.

Dont mean to sound harsh but its the facts, downfalls of a consumer society. and the bill from the ambulance, poor show

[ILikeTobacco]

Wasnt Obama care supposed to provide free health care in certain situations or something? It wont work cus america is to large as a country and in terms of ppl in the country. It would bankrupt the US if it went free.

Obamacare had nothing to do with healthcare. It was a health insurance bill. The only mention of health care was health care providers are expected to charge less and eat the bill with poor insurance coverage, which translates to everyone else has to pick up the slack. That is why healthcare costs are rising so fast. Everyone who has health insurance is instantly thrown into the category of rich and taxed more and charged more for the healthcare they get, all the while the bar lowered for what health insurance companies have to pay.

[Richteralan]

Looks cheap until you use some common sense. Of course, that would require you to stop trolling.

• 2 trained ER's, 1 Driver possibly trained in ER: At $40 an hour, which is more than they get paid, with an average time of 11 minutes to respond, without giving any service, $22 dollars total.
  
• Phone system: less than 60 cents. That is including the cost of the operator which gets paid close to minimum wage.
  
• There are no medical insurance costs because no treatment was given. (He was already dead. Had you read the post and not been trolling, you would have known that.
  
• The most expensive ambulance's in the US cost $133,000, and they are in New York. On average, the cost is around $85,000. With a 10 year life span, the per minute cost is about 11 cents. So that means, for a $133,000 ambulance, which these are not, $1.21.
  

So far we are up to $23.81. No medical equipment was used, gas cost would have been less than a dollar. Maintenance from that trip would be just as small. At worst, the cost of that ambulance is less $30-$40 for an 11 minute response time.

To me you sound like the kind of people live in unincorporated area and refuse to pay firestation service and will bitch about it when firemen look at your house get burned down.

[ILikeTobacco]

To me you sound like the kind of people live in unincorporated area and refuse to pay firestation service and will bitch about it when firemen look at your house get burned down.

Except that I live in a city of 100,000 where the ambulance costs $120 base price. Still overcharged but way less than $700 like in this story and you only get charged that if they actually do something, which they didn't in this story. $700 is unreasonable for what we provided, which is nothing. Firefighters get paid from property taxes here so not sure what your point with that is. If anything you are just proving my point with that. A $700+ for providing no service. In unincorporated areas, if you don't pay the fire station service, your house burns down. In this story, the ambulance service let a man die and charged for it.

[Kami-]

You get charged in the UK too. Don't know what your own taxes pay for or something?

Obviously, he doesn't pay any tax yet...

[Richteralan]

The service is averaged to around 11 minutes so it was appropriate to figure out the cost for that amount of time. Simple math really. Had I not, the trolls would have been all over it asking for sources.

Sure.........

Next time pay your plumber by the minute, or your electrician, or your lawyer..etc.

[ILikeTobacco]

Sure.........

Next time pay your plumber by the minute, or your electrician, or your lawyer..etc.

My lawyer gets paid by the day, well sort of. I have what amounts to law insurance that amounts to $1.30 or so a day. I pay monthly regardless of if I need them or not. They don't cover all things, but cover most common things like traffic court, bail, etc. And I don't pay a plumber or electrician because I do that myself. :)

Also, you have been on this site long enough to know that had I said the price without showing the math behind it, trolls would have been all over it. Just skipping the troll fest from that.

[LaP]

I don't understand why the price asked is being discussed here.

The problem is not really the price even if it appears to be high. The problem is the service was poor yet they asked him to pay the full price. Usually when a company offer such a poor service they offer a substantial rebate or even a full refund.

[Rippleman]

I'm pretty sure the father didn't receive any service though.

On the other hand, Insurance should have covered it.

time is billed as excitably that. "time". The ambulance ride would have cost more had it been regular call. For every service, a separate billing is added, examples are: Tylenol, a defibrillator, cast, or even distance.

Well i had to call 911 for my dad 2 times once December 13th and after a 5 day stay then had to call agian on january 1st when the home health care nurse was there and well my Father passed away on the 8th of january this year but both ambulance rides tho paid by OHP Oregon health plan and Keizer hospital each ride was $1.645.00 and only 23miles on milage it siad on the paper work . i Miss my dad a whole lot

sorry to hear about your dad, know that we all have to experience it at some point, you're not alone.

Looks cheap until you use some common sense. Of course, that would require you to stop trolling.

• 2 trained ER's, 1 Driver possibly trained in ER: At $40 an hour, which is more than they get paid, with an average time of 11 minutes to respond, without giving any service, $22 dollars total.
  
• Phone system: less than 60 cents. That is including the cost of the operator which gets paid close to minimum wage.
  
• There are no medical insurance costs because no treatment was given. (He was already dead. Had you read the post and not been trolling, you would have known that.
  
• The most expensive ambulance's in the US cost $133,000, and they are in New York. On average, the cost is around $85,000. With a 10 year life span, the per minute cost is about 11 cents. So that means, for a $133,000 ambulance, which these are not, $1.21.
  

So far we are up to $23.81. No medical equipment was used, gas cost would have been less than a dollar. Maintenance from that trip would be just as small. At worst, the cost of that ambulance is less $30-$40 for an 11 minute response time.

I may have over estimated the cost of the ambulance. You know, seeing how you know how to bring the cost of medical service down so much, you should run for office. If what you say is true, and EVERYONE wants inexpensive health care, they would vote you in office in an instant. Never the less, everything has a cost and this is it. And about your use of the troll word.. i don't think it means what you think it means. By the way, what do you do for work?

[Anibal P]

wow

The only time i called an ambulance (for my mom) it was there in less than 5. The only time i called the police (when i was working as a parking attendant) it was there in less than 5 minutes. I can understand if you call at an hour where there's traffic congestion but in the middle of the night it should be there in less than 10 minutes easily.

Here in my town in CT they have this retarded rule that if you call in for an emergency, NO MATTER what the first responders will be the fire department, the firemen make the determination of an ambulance is necessary, used to be the cops, now firefighters, the whole thing would be simple,. if the unions would get out of the system as was told to me by a pro union retired police officer

[ILikeTobacco]

I may have over estimated the cost of the ambulance. You know, seeing how you know how to bring the cost of medical service down so much, you should run for office. If what you say is true, and EVERYONE wants inexpensive health care, they would vote you in office in an instant. Never the less, everything has a cost and this is it. And about your use of the troll word.. i don't think it means what you think it means. By the way, what do you do for work?

Seems like you may not know what trolling means. Bold parts apply to your post were you think the bill was perfectly reasonable given that nothing was done. Nobody would post that unless they are trying to get a response like that. $700+ for doing nothing other than failing at their job which is to quickly respond to an emergency?

In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is someone who posts inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Also, what office is it that are talking about? No political office sets these prices. Hospitals are privately run businesses. They set their own prices. Usually these prices are this high to pay for the debts that come from having to treat people who refuse to pay for service they receive. Law abiding citizens have to foot the bill.

[Shadrack]

Wow, I would just LOVE it if I only had to pay my doctor, surgeon, ER, ambulance, pharmacist (etc., etc.) when they actually succeed and cure me or whatever. Truth of the matter is, all these folks are not working for free. Even if they don't cure their patient or an ambulance doesn't arrive on time they still need to be paid. That's life.

Anyway, he can probably get the amount drastically reduced or potentially argue that he is not responsible for his dead father's debt.

I don't think that 30 minutes is an unreasonably long time to wait for an ambulance.

[Hum]

^ True -- and then even higher bills are given to the people that can pay. ;)

[Rippleman]

In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is someone who posts inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response http://en.wikipedia...._%28Internet%29

By that definition, I would say your response to my post would be more of trolling. I was posting justification for said charges with the logic behind the billing. You chose to follow up with an emotional response

Also, what office is it that are talking about? No political office sets these prices. Hospitals are privately run businesses. They set their own prices. Usually these prices are this high to pay for the debts that come from having to treat people who refuse to pay for service they receive. Law abiding citizens have to foot the bill.

.

I am not 100% familiar with US law, but the hospitals must meet certain guidelines and requirements before being allowed to operate. There is committees that determine what these rules are. If you ran for a position within that committee, saying you will bring an average ambulance ride down to $100-$200, you would be very popular,get voted in, and would be a national hero. Why are you not trying to do this? You alone could save the entire US population hundreds BILLIONS of dollars. I think you should do it.

[Shadrack]

Yeah, I'm not sure how next-of-kin medical bills go. A spouse having to pay a medical bill is a no brainier. They assume to be equal partners under the law. But when the bill goes to someone's son or father or cousin or whoever, seems like there isn't much a collection agency can leverage against someone who doesn't pay their fathers bill. Even though the son called the ambulance, he wasn't the patient. Ultimately, if the father would have lived then the father would have received the bill not the son.

Just because the son received the bill does not mean that the son legally has to pay the bill (is all I'm saying). I'm not surprised the the hospital is trying to bill SOMEONE, but I'm not sure they can do anything to you if you refuse to pay your dead relative's bill for them.

[ILikeTobacco]

By that definition, I would say your response to my post would be more of trolling. I was posting justification for said charges with the logic behind the billing. You followed up with an emotional response

.

I am not 100% familiar with US law, but the hospitals must meet certain guidelines and requirements before being allowed to operate. There is committees that determine what these rules are. If you ran for a position within that committee, saying you will bring an average ambulance ride down to $100-$200, you would be very popular,get voted in, and would be a national hero. Why are you not trying to do this? You alone could save the entire US population BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars. I think you should do it.

Did you miss the entire point of a hospital is a privately ran business? What you are arguing is that because law makers set the minimum standard, they choose the price. If that we there case, law makers could force Ferrari to cut there prices in half to the actual cost of building it based on the minimum requirements. The cost of an ambulance is less than $50 an average 11 response time. The BUSINESS(lets pretend we know that business are made to make money for someone) decided that $700+ was a fair price for a less than $50 service. It is the part you keep ignoring. There is no price cap on profits and since the choice is life or death, people have to accept that price. Seriously, stop trolling. You last comments are just ridiculous. Do it again and I will just report you so people who are trying to have a real conversation about what should be done can discuss it. $700 for a $50 dollar service is a ripoff, period.

Yeah, I'm not sure how next-of-kin medical bills go. A spouse having to pay a medical bill is a no brainier. They assume to be equal partners under the law. But when the bill goes to someone's son or father or cousin or whoever, seems like there isn't much a collection agency can leverage against someone who doesn't pay their fathers bill. Even though the son called the ambulance, he wasn't the patient. Ultimately, if the father would have lived then the father would have received the bill not the son.

Just because the son received the bill does not mean that the son legally has to pay the bill (is all I'm saying). I'm not surprised the the hospital is trying to bill SOMEONE, but I'm not sure they can do anything to you if you refuse to pay your dead relative's bill for them.

That bill can go to the estate though, assuming he had anything. Someone has to be billed for it. No way a hospital could afford to stay open people dying is a very common thing.

[ncoday]

Not if you can't afford it. Here in the UK we support each other to ensure that everyone is cared for whereas in the US people can only use an ambulance if they can afford it.

That is so loaded with bullcrap its not even funny. You get an ambulance, they don't first ask for a credit card.

[fenderMarky]

Where's the problem? This is capitalism...

[Rippleman]

Did you miss the entire point of a hospital is a privately ran business? What you are arguing is that because law makers set the minimum standard, they choose the price. If that we there case, law makers could force Ferrari to cut there prices in half to the actual cost of building it based on the minimum requirements. The cost of an ambulance is less than $50 an average 11 response time. The BUSINESS(lets pretend we know that business are made to make money for someone) decided that $700+ was a fair price for a less than $50 service. It is the part you keep ignoring. There is no price cap on profits and since the choice is life or death, people have to accept that price. Seriously, stop trolling. You last comments are just ridiculous. Do it again and I will just report you so people who are trying to have a real conversation about what should be done can discuss it. $700 for a $50 dollar service is a ripoff, period.

That bill can go to the estate though, assuming he had anything. Someone has to be billed for it. No way a hospital could afford to stay open people dying is a very common thing.

I think you may need a cigarette or something. You seem could be having a nic-fit. I invite you to report me, I would be curious to what you would say. As much as everyone would like an ambulance to cost $50, its just not possible no matter how much you scream, kick, cry, or justify. But if you could do it for that, I feel you have a moral obligation to start a hospital and offer your services to them. like I said, you would save America hundreds of billions of dollars. You have my vote.

[ILikeTobacco]

I think you may need a cigarette or something. You seem could be having a nic-fit. I invite you to report me, I would be curious to what you would say. As much as everyone would like an ambulance to cost $50, its just not possible no matter how much you scream, kick, cry, or justify. But if you could do it for that, I feel you have a moral obligation to start a hospital and offer your services to them. like I said, you would save America hundreds of billions of dollars. You have my vote.

I don't smoke but good job showing you just assume crap. Whole point of the screen name. Explains why you think it actually costs $700+ to move an ambulance from point A to point B.

Again, you are claiming I have your vote and you are ignoring votes don't get you in charge of a hospital, money does. Stop ignoring facts. I never said the cost has to be brought all the way down to $50. You are still claiming that a $700+ charge for a $50 service is acceptable. Sounds like you would make a great owner of a hospital since that is how they currently do business. Rarely is no service applied. Two valid trips of an ambulance priced at $75 for just the response would have covered the one time it wasn't needed. But you are still arguing that a law from congress is the only possible solution. It is a money hungry business. Shareholders and owners want their money and until that changes, hospitals will charge $700+ for a $50 service when no service was given.

[jakem1]

That is so loaded with bullcrap its not even funny. You get an ambulance, they don't first ask for a credit card.

So do you ever have to pay for that ambulance ride? If so, what happens if you don't pay? Is the penalty associated with non-payment enough to put people off calling an ambulance if they know they can't afford one?

You might not like the way that I put it but the reality is that the universal system here in the UK does ensure that everyone can access health services (including ambulance rides) regardless of their financial situation.

[Tuishimi]

Well, I had done some research on the topic of healthcare awhile back in regards to France, not as confident about the UK... but several items stood out. First, medical procedures/costs are regulated. Where a root canal costs $600-$1200 here, it would cost 100 Euros in France. Doctors are also paid about 1/3 about what doctors in the US are paid. France also controls access to health care professionals ... who you can see and when. Finally, France taxes at around 38% tp 43% (for a typical family, if you have more children you pay less, if you have fewer you pay more). Another telling figure for France was that 90% of the citizens purchase supplemental insurance. Finally, doctors are allowed to charge more than the baseline for more/better care and apparently most do (ie. the insurance does NOT cover it all).

To sum it up (France, I don't know about UK):

1. Higher taxes than in the US by at least 10%, closer to 15% and 20%.

2. Price setting by the gov't. (procedure prices and doctor wages).

3. Regulated access to healthcare professionals. (you don't get to see specialists unless referred onward)

4. 90% of people pay for supplemental insurance. (that cost is not figured in when the cost research was done)

5. You can pay more than the social medicine covers in costs if you want better care. (apparently most doctors offer this)

In regards to the statement about an ambulance ride. All people can take an ambulance whether you have money or not. So what our UK friend said was basically a lie, which is probably why the US poster responded as he did.

[Rippleman]

I don't smoke but good job showing you just assume crap. Whole point of the screen name. Explains why you think it actually costs $700+ to move an ambulance from point A to point B.

Again, you are claiming I have your vote and you are ignoring votes don't get you in charge of a hospital, money does. Stop ignoring facts. I never said the cost has to be brought all the way down to $50. You are still claiming that a $700+ charge for a $50 service is acceptable. Sounds like you would make a great owner of a hospital since that is how they currently do business.

$700 does seem excessive i do agree, I also agree I do not know all the details about how the number is calculated. Behind the curtians of almost every industry, people can be shocked at added expenses. And you can apply that to any service or product.

Examples:

A) Why does it cost $100/hour for a mechanic? Isn't he only paid $20/hr?

b) Why does windows 7/8 cost $**? Doesn't the disc only cost $0.50?

c) Why do airlines charge me MORE then the cost of the fuel to go somewhere when the plain is full of other passengers?

I am a very cheap person. I hate high costs and I 100% hate the greed of people. But when it comes to the issues of life, there is certain minimums that must be applied that can't be had for "cheap". I think for sure the hospital things are out of control and the pricing is stupid ridiculous and without correction the industry is going to suffer eventually. All I said in this particular post was the "todays" justification value. I didn't mean for it to be morally correct or incorrect. It was just a reason of "why" it was $700.

[Tuishimi]

Looked back over my old notes and saw this:

...the figures for GB do not take into account that corporations also provide supplemental health insurance. Because it is socially run there is also this: "The median wait time for a consultant led first appointment in English hospitals is a little over 3 weeks."

[edit]

Businessweek was a major source for this information.