durango Rumor: Xbox 720 always-online false, is backwards compatible

[BajiRav]

I'm not sure how I feel about the Nextbox running Windows 8. The Xbox TV sounds interesting, if true. I still hate Kinect, and I still hate the fact that it's required. Again, if the online-only rumor is true, I won't be getting the console all together.

Too bad Microsoft postponed their announcement for no reason. It would have been nice to know whether these things are true or not.

My guess? Most likely will be binary compatible with WinRT and nothing more.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I have a life outside of Neowin, I don't exist to be anyones posting boy. You can probably buy one of them from Thailand if you are so inclined.

You damn better hope this is true, always online would be an awful awful decision.

[SharpGreen]

I think they were pretty much re-compiling games for 360 IIRC so BC was available as long as the game was re-compiled. (I might be completely wrong though)

I don't think 360 SoC will be cheap enough to be included as standard :/ it has to be an add on.

Considering the vastly different CPU arch. between the original xbox and the 360...that's really the only viable way to do it. Unless you take the route of the nexbox and just include the last gen's SoC.

[HawkMan]

Just pointing out that this is the same way the PS3 originally did BC. Emotion engine was included in the original fat PS3's

[Emn1ty]

I have a life outside of Neowin, I don't exist to be anyones posting boy. You can probably buy one of them from Thailand if you are so inclined.

You damn better hope this is true, always online would be an awful awful decision.

Depends on what "always online" applies to. So far only the doomsayers have made the leap to overarching DRM. Otherwise it would make sense for certain features to require an online connection, say Netflix for example.

[helios01]

"This means it?ll be running the new WinRT framework, which as a side effect also means that contrary to popular belief MS will be the most indie friendly of all the big 3 next gen. This is because any app/game that is created for the Windows app store will (after adding controller support of course) be playable on Durango."

This is rather interesting. Now if only MS hadn't killed XNA, they're doing some interesting with DirectX but I've always disliked the DirectX syntax, I'd rather do OpenGL. Meh, can't have everything I suppose. Still good news if true.

[TheLegendOfMart]

It won't run Windows 8, the OS might be based on Windows 8 including the Kernel. I'd be very surprised if it ran Windows RT or it's apps.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing, well almost....

I guess this rumor just happened to slip by AB radar.

I never said I didn't believe it, was just wondering why people who didn't believe the always on rumours are so inclined to believe this considering they both come from sources "close to Durango development"

[HawkMan]

It won't run Windows 8, the OS might be based on Windows 8 including the Kernel. I'd be very surprised if it ran Windows RT or it's apps.

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it ran RT apps. I have said it could and should since the start, and if it did it would be a major win for MS and it would be fairly easy to do, it has the kernel and adding the RT layer to it wouldn't be easy, RT also handles the multitasking they need and uses EXTREMELY little resources, perfect to run next to a game.

I'm not sure they will do it. but they should, and as I said it wouldn't surprise me as it would be a major home run for them. and it fits in with their whole unification process.

I never said I didn't believe it, was just wondering why people who didn't believe the always on rumours are so inclined to believe this considering they both come from sources "close to Durango development"

See my experience from these forums is that, we the people you accuse of not believing those rumors, don't believe in any of the rumors until we have proof. However you have the other camp you absolutely believe every negative rumor but throw away all rumors like these.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

I'm still waiting for something official before I make any decisions.

Hush now, with your common sense. This is an Internet forum, no place for such malarkey!

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

I'm more inclined to believe these rumors simply because they make sense (Especially since I've been saying the Next Xbox should run Windows 8 for a while), while always online and blocking used games are stupid ideas (Especially because the current system solves those "issues" in much better ways)

Why would any publisher want used games blocked, when they can use the online pass model instead? Not only does that allow used game sales (Making customers and stores happy) it also lets the publisher get money from every resale. You'd be crazy to say that's a worse idea than blocking used games if you were a publisher.

Edit: But obviously wait until it's all made official, etc.

[TheLegendOfMart]

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it ran RT apps. I have said it could and should since the start, and if it did it would be a major win for MS and it would be fairly easy to do, it has the kernel and adding the RT layer to it wouldn't be easy, RT also handles the multitasking they need and uses EXTREMELY little resources, perfect to run next to a game.

I'm not sure they will do it. but they should, and as I said it wouldn't surprise me as it would be a major home run for them. and it fits in with their whole unification process.

See my experience from these forums is that, we the people you accuse of not believing those rumors, don't believe in any of the rumors until we have proof. However you have the other camp you absolutely believe every negative rumor but throw away all rumors like these.

I don't think it will run RT as it is on tablets, it might have a customised version but I don't think you will just be able to download any app designed for RT/Windows 8.

[HawkMan]

As such, maybe not. However, I believe that would be more of an artificial limitation. Most likely it "could" run any RT app, but it will have it own App Store. And when you submit an RTapp you choose if it goes to the WinRT store, the Xbox RT store or both. But I suspect it will have the full framework, maybe with some extras for the pad, which could get back ported to Windows RT.

[JonnyLH]

I think they were pretty much re-compiling games for 360 IIRC so BC was available as long as the game was re-compiled. (I might be completely wrong though)

I don't think 360 SoC will be cheap enough to be included as standard :/ it has to be an add on.

Surprise, surprise.

This is why internet forums can't have serious debates, because if you mentioned that as a solution to a group to engineers on how to support BC on the 360. You would of got fired for not having a clue what you're on about.

You can't just "re-compile" a game for different CPU architecture, thats a insane statement. A game engine would have to re-wrote with all new instruction sets to work with a new CPU architecture. Memory handling would have to be re-wrote... the list goes on.

The 360 had an emulator, which was built by MS that could emulate Xbox 1 games on the 360. The only games which were supported on this emulator were the games which we're tested properly with the correct engineering work to ensure the game would be stable, since all are different.

To be on topic, I can't believe people believed the always-on rumour. Has anyone even thought of emerging markets? They'd essentially slash their market by a boat ton.

EDIT: Sorry about the tone of the reply. Commenting on forums doesn't usually align with work.

[-T- Member]

If the system is supposed to be x86, why would they port the ARM version of windows to it?

[Motoko.]

I don't know why you guys thought they really would go ahead with 'always online'

I knew the minute those rumors flooded twitter that it wouldn't happen, it was way too obvious that they used this to garner attention for their console release. Especially considering how MS didn't give confirmation if these rumors were true.

[HawkMan]

If the system is supposed to be x86, why would they port the ARM version of windows to it?

ugh... RT as in the pure non desktop modern UI version of windows, or rather apps. the point is the rumor is it runs modern apps.

[compl3x]

I don't know why you guys thought they really would go ahead with 'always online'

I knew the minute those rumors flooded twitter that it wouldn't happen, it was way too obvious that they used this to garner attention for their console release. Especially considering how MS didn't give confirmation if these rumors were true.

This is just a rumour contradicting another rumour. Essentially, we are back where we all started: we don't know anything either way.

[Motoko.]

This is just a rumour contradicting another rumour. Essentially, we are back where we all started: we don't know anything either way.

Yep, exactly

It's really clever marketing to get people suckered into the hype of the machine.

[neufuse Veteran]

wait, what? "This means it?ll be running the new WinRT framework" WinRT is the OS for ARM, Windows RunTime is a framework..... of which even XBOX360 ran a version of (XNA was a version of it in the past)

[neufuse Veteran]

You can't just "re-compile" a game for different CPU architecture, thats a insane statement. A game engine would have to re-wrote with all new instruction sets to work with a new CPU architecture. Memory handling would have to be re-wrote... the list goes on.

The 360 had an emulator, which was built by MS that could emulate Xbox 1 games on the 360. The only games which were supported on this emulator were the games which we're tested properly with the correct engineering work to ensure the game would be stable, since all are different.

well, actually, if you use an intermediate layer you don't have to recompile, you like a Just In Time Compiler do it for you.... that's how .NET works, which is why you can "compile" for Any CPU as long as you have the JIT compiler for it's architecture... now if you wanted low level functions, yeah you will be doing that at the machine code level and be machine specific... but the whole point of a framework like XNA was that you could port .NET games easily to PPC or ARM or X86

[ahhell]

If the system is supposed to be x86, why would they port the ARM version of windows to it?

It says WinRT (Windows RUNTIME) not Windows RT.

:rolleyes:

[BajiRav]

This is why internet forums can't have serious debates, because if you mentioned that as a solution to a group to engineers on how to support BC on the 360. You would of got fired for not having a clue what you're on about.

You can't just "re-compile" a game for different CPU architecture, thats a insane statement. A game engine would have to re-wrote with all new instruction sets to work with a new CPU architecture. Memory handling would have to be re-wrote... the list goes on.

The 360 had an emulator, which was built by MS that could emulate Xbox 1 games on the 360. The only games which were supported on this emulator were the games which we're tested properly with the correct engineering work to ensure the game would be stable, since all are different.

To be on topic, I can't believe people believed the always-on rumour. Has anyone even thought of emerging markets? They'd essentially slash their market by a boat ton.

EDIT: Sorry about the tone of the reply. Commenting on forums doesn't usually align with work.

I am well aware of that you can't "just compile" and I never meant it that way. I mentioned it in my post that I could be wrong (and I was apparently).

wait, what? "This means it?ll be running the new WinRT framework" WinRT is the OS for ARM, Windows RunTime is a framework..... of which even XBOX360 ran a version of (XNA was a version of it in the past)

Windows Run Time is abbreviated as WinRT. Windows RT is the OS for ARM. Yes, Microsoft is a genius at branding.

This is just a rumour contradicting another rumour. Essentially, we are back where we all started: we don't know anything either way.

This rumor was also not denied by Microsoft so it must be true?

/s

[ctrl_alt_delete]

I don't think it will run RT as it is on tablets, it might have a customised version but I don't think you will just be able to download any app designed for RT/Windows 8.

hey Mart what are you doing here? I remember seeing you after at a PS4 thread gunning down an xbox supporter (I think it was hawkman) for being in the PS4 thread. so let me ask you, since you're a die hard PS fan what are you doing here?

This is why internet forums can't have serious debates, because if you mentioned that as a solution to a group to engineers on how to support BC on the 360. You would of got fired for not having a clue what you're on about.

You can't just "re-compile" a game for different CPU architecture, thats a insane statement. A game engine would have to re-wrote with all new instruction sets to work with a new CPU architecture. Memory handling would have to be re-wrote... the list goes on.

The 360 had an emulator, which was built by MS that could emulate Xbox 1 games on the 360. The only games which were supported on this emulator were the games which we're tested properly with the correct engineering work to ensure the game would be stable, since all are different.

To be on topic, I can't believe people believed the always-on rumour. Has anyone even thought of emerging markets? They'd essentially slash their market by a boat ton.

EDIT: Sorry about the tone of the reply. Commenting on forums doesn't usually align with work.

all the backward compatibility talk me thinking, how did Microsoft do BC from the original xbox (intel x86 based) to the xbox360 (IBM PowerPC based) without having to recompile but only download a "software patch" for the games? it could've been done through an emulator, I believe Durango has enough power to do so just like the x360 had enough power to do it with the original xbox games.

[HawkMan]

This rumor was also not denied by Microsoft so it must be true?

/s

You have to remember, only the negative rumors are true ;)

[JonnyLH]

well, actually, if you use an intermediate layer you don't have to recompile, you like a Just In Time Compiler do it for you.... that's how .NET works, which is why you can "compile" for Any CPU as long as you have the JIT compiler for it's architecture... now if you wanted low level functions, yeah you will be doing that at the machine code level and be machine specific... but the whole point of a framework like XNA was that you could port .NET games easily to PPC or ARM or X86

I love those languages for that exact reason, XNA was awesome for that sort of stuff. Too bad they've ditched it and gone down the web route. XNA was a good platform! Unfortunately, the majority of code you'll see in consoles will be native and sit quite low. Vendors actually encourage this due to the speed improvements the lower you go, but can't be re-compiled without a re-write and re architect.

I am well aware of that you can't "just compile" and I never meant it that way. I mentioned it in my post that I could be wrong (and I was apparently).

Sorry, I wasn't really targeting you, I was having a rant.

all the backward compatibility talk me thinking, how did Microsoft do BC from the original xbox (intel x86 based) to the xbox360 (IBM PowerPC based) without having to recompile but only download a "software patch" for the games? it could've been done through an emulator, I believe Durango has enough power to do so just like the x360 had enough power to do it with the original xbox games.

It was exactly through an emulator. The patches you see were the specifics which ensured the games ran stable with the emulator. Although, if the specs are true, the Durango won't have enough power to emulate a triple core Power PC cpu. Unfortunately it just won't happen. That's why they'll be looking at SoC. It'll be a far cheaper solution which'll give the engineers less headaches.

I missed that WinRT line. That means something doesn't add up! The WinRT Framework is not the metro aspect of W8, thats the ModernUI. The WinRT Framework is the instruction sets in the Windows Kernal to work with ARM. Which means the new Xbox would be ARM. I actually call BS on this.