Xbox One vs. indies: Microsoft bullies developers into signing with publish

[BajiRav]

+1 unhappy dev

 

Microsoft ?Institutionally Incompetent," Has ?****ed Up? Processes, Says Skulls of the Shogun Dev

 

Very very happy this game is no longer Win8/phone exclusive & coming to Steam. Talk about a death wish.

 

@Spenser.d it's not just the devs that speak out is my point you are missing. It is those who don't even want to bother with the platform at all now & skip it entirely for something better. XBLA SoA this summer is evident enough with that. The lineup is shocking.

 

@GP007, Sony did. They visited indies prior to E3/ I think Destination Playstation too & presented to them the PS4. Microsoft should have done the same.

Which of the Indie games received as much promotion from Sony as Skulls of the Shogun received from Microsoft? If you didn't know, it was heavily publicized on all three Stores, corporate blogs, twitter accounts and what not.

 

They're no way perfect and some of their policies are outdated (according to most devs) but all this thread is FUD prior to BUILD next week.

 

There is a reason Microsoft sorted the DRM mess this quick and in THIS WEEK. Now they don't have to deal with it at Build in 4 days.

[George P Global Moderator]

I don't count Xbox Live branded/enabled games as "indie" games anymore.  Right now you need a publisher, be it MS or one of the others to be a Xbox Live game.   A "indie" doesn't have a publisher so a indie is all the other games I can get on WP and Windows 8 that don't use the live service as a backend.   Some of you want to make it sound like a developer isn't getting anything out of the deal and just shafted.   That's hardly the case.  As a publisher, Microsoft Studios can offer production, test, localization, marketing and more for a game.  There's also access to the whole Live backend to handle things that if you wanted to incorporate into your game you'd have to then write and support yourself often by having to rent out a server on your own and so on. 

 

Skulls of the Shogun benefited from letting me start a game on Xbox, resume on Windows 8, and also resume on WP later if I wanted, all thanks to the Live service doing it's magic from behind.    It also let people play with others regardless of which of the 3 platforms they're on at the time.   You tell me how you'd pull that off on your own as a small dev studio without costly servers and who knows how much time writing code to pull that off. 

[BajiRav]

I don't count Xbox Live branded/enabled games as "indie" games anymore.  Right now you need a publisher, be it MS or one of the others to be a Xbox Live game.   A "indie" doesn't have a publisher so a indie is all the other games I can get on WP and Windows 8 that don't use the live service as a backend.   Some of you want to make it sound like a developer isn't getting anything out of the deal and just shafted.   That's hardly the case.  As a publisher, Microsoft Studios can offer production, test, localization, marketing and more for a game.  There's also access to the whole Live backend to handle things that if you wanted to incorporate into your game you'd have to then write and support yourself often by having to rent out a server on your own and so on. 

 

Skulls of the Shogun benefited from letting me start a game on Xbox, resume on Windows 8, and also resume on WP later if I wanted, all thanks to the Live service doing it's magic from behind.    It also let people play with others regardless of which of the 3 platforms they're on at the time.   You tell me how you'd pull that off on your own as a small dev studio without costly servers and who knows how much time writing code to pull that off. 

but that doesn't suite the narrative that Microsoft is the evil empire and Sony is ###### unicorns and angels.

[MandateOfHeaven]

This this story true, its unlikely for MS to change it,

and existing big 'approved' publishers are liking the xbox one policy and putting pressure to MSFT to keep it this way.

Why? becasue in this policy, MS creates a closed 'competition' between publishers,

the approved publishers are abosulutely delighted with this as there will be no new rivals will emerges on market,

and anyone who want to enter the marketplace must join existing publishers, more power for existing publishers.

And if the approved publishers wish to, they can form a unified cartel that will steer the marketplace as they see fit,

like absolute profits maximization, that imposible to achieve if theres independent publisher around.

Perhaps as compensation those publishers will pay a bit more royalties to microsoft.

This can be compared to how Fascism economy works.

 

Good insight on the matter--I agree.  Sometimes you don't actually need hard proof to prove something--inference is a unique human ability to see with the mind's eyes.

[Noir Angel]

oh, I would say that steam holds a big marketshare on the PC.  I wouldn't worry so much about Microsoft and developers.  Microsoft knows where their bread is buttered.   I mean Steve says it all the time so much that I don't even need to quote him.

 

Steam has a high marketshare because it's awesome... but the point is Valve don't have the entire ecosystem locked down like Microsoft do with the Xbox, they can't use bully tactics to string developers along because releasing games independantly for PC is incredibly easy as PCs simply can't be locked down like consoles can. Valve in fact are very good to their developers and customers, apart from a small processing fee developers can use greenlight and if enough gamers think a project has merit they were inviting them to put their games on it for free. Great free mods like Black Mesa are in the process of making it onto Steam.

 

Now when was the last time you put Microsoft, Xbox marketplace, and free in the same sentence.

[helios01]

 Indies will usually end up at the PC. Look at the PS3 and how indies have had to go through publishers. PS4 promises change so let's wait and see. 360 offered openness but no marketability to indie games. In the end for small indie developers looking to do their own things, the PC is the safest bet. And with technologies like HTML 5 taking over, it'll be all the more prevalent. 

 

 Have we heard what kits indies will have access to to develop for PS4? what are the prices?

[slapfacemcdougal]

 Indies will usually end up at the PC. Look at the PS3 and how indies have had to go through publishers. PS4 promises change so let's wait and see. 360 offered openness but no marketability to indie games. In the end for small indie developers looking to do their own things, the PC is the safest bet. And with technologies like HTML 5 taking over, it'll be all the more prevalent. 

 

 Have we heard what kits indies will have access to to develop for PS4? what are the prices?

 

Indies can self publish on PS4. They most likely use the Playstation Mobile platform.

[Yogurtmaster]

Steam has a high marketshare because it's awesome... but the point is Valve don't have the entire ecosystem locked down like Microsoft do with the Xbox, they can't use bully tactics to string developers along because releasing games independantly for PC is incredibly easy as PCs simply can't be locked down like consoles can. Valve in fact are very good to their developers and customers, apart from a small processing fee developers can use greenlight and if enough gamers think a project has merit they were inviting them to put their games on it for free. Great free mods like Black Mesa are in the process of making it onto Steam.

 

Now when was the last time you put Microsoft, Xbox marketplace, and free in the same sentence.

 

Yawn, bulling tactics.  A console is a console and has a locked down environment for a reason.  It has nothing to do with a certain company. 

 

When was the last time you understood a console is a console and a PC is a PC.  Common sense, try some.

[Darrian]

If I were an Indie publisher I would simply publish everywhere except Xbox Live and push Windows games out through Steam.  Of course that would mean no Windows Phone app, and as a WP8 user it saddens me the lack of development on Windows Phone, but ###### like this is likely a good part of the reason why.

[George P Global Moderator]

If I were an Indie publisher I would simply publish everywhere except Xbox Live and push Windows games out through Steam.  Of course that would mean no Windows Phone app, and as a WP8 user it saddens me the lack of development on Windows Phone, but bull**** like this is likely a good part of the reason why.

 

 

Not really, you only need a publisher to have a Xbox Live enabled game.  If you want a true indie game you just publish it to the store without Xbox Live support and revshare it like you would on steam or other digital stores.   It's all on what a developer wants.   To get the benefits of the Live backend services for your game you need one extra step and that is to get a publisher.   That could change with the Xbox One, we'll find out at BUILD in a few days.

[123456789A]

Since when are business deals considered bullying?

[Woelfel]

I get tired of seeing this bull about MS not being good to indie game developers and making their lives harder and stuff. Being a good friend of one (James Silva, creator of The Dishwasher) through XNA (will forever be sad about it dying) and his take (positive) with MS, it seems to me that everyone has different experiences (good or bad) but it's always business stuff. People forget that Microsoft has Xbox Live Indie Games, it's pretty straightforward (basically like the App Store) and there are thousands of "indie" (which really is a misused term) games that got through that fine. It's the games that want to be on Xbox Live Arcade (more "pro" than "indie") that have "issues."

 

Yes, they lose stuff like achievements and stuff, but if you want those features and charge different prices, you need to deal with MS. Otherwise, use Xbox Live Indie Games and release your game.

 

Oh and Playstation and Nintendo both don't have an Xbox Live Indie Game equivalent, yet those companies are praised while MS isn't. Granted, I do feel bad that MS and "indies" have a hard time with MS because it sucks for the games. 

[JonnyLH]

I get tired of seeing this bull about MS not being good to indie game developers and making their lives harder and stuff. Being a good friend of one (James Silva, creator of The Dishwasher) through XNA (will forever be sad about it dying) and his take (positive) with MS, it seems to me that everyone has different experiences (good or bad) but it's always business stuff. People forget that Microsoft has Xbox Live Indie Games, it's pretty straightforward (basically like the App Store) and there are thousands of "indie" (which really is a misused term) games that got through that fine. It's the games that want to be on Xbox Live Arcade (more "pro" than "indie") that have "issues."

Yes, they lose stuff like achievements and stuff, but if you want those features and charge different prices, you need to deal with MS. Otherwise, use Xbox Live Indie Games and release your game.

Oh and Playstation and Nintendo both don't have an Xbox Live Indie Game equivalent, yet those companies are praised while MS isn't. Granted, I do feel bad that MS and "indies" have a hard time with MS because it sucks for the games.

Exactly.

Regarding these stories I often don't take them too seriously. Its not like MS are going to defend their corner is it? You only ever hear one side of the story.

Id watch the Indie Games Documentary on Netflix guys.