win8 Windows RT facing pressure from being isolated

[technord]

Why are you regularly performing factory resets? You shouldn't be.

 

We deal with large scale FIM and BYOD deployments.  Trust me, when you are coding complex meta-agents and device profiling, you need to make sure any changes are done on factory fresh machines.

 

ok, yeah, most people won't be factory resetting as much as us.....this was just ONE annoyance I was trying to highlight with MS and their 'tablet' OS

 

When it's more like a laptop in a tablet formfactor, that's good and bad

[threetonesun]

I think more people think you're lying about doing an iOS factory reset in a few minutes. I usually walk away and go watch a movie if I have to do that. :laugh:

[technord]

I think more people think you're lying about doing an iOS factory reset in a few minutes. I usually walk away and go watch a movie if I have to do that. :laugh:

 

I have to say that the last time I did that on an iPhone 5, it didn't take very long.  Last time on an iPad was about a year ago and can't remember the exact time (im sure it wasn't anywhere near 2 hours though).

 

Actually my wife has an ipad, but not sure she would appreciate me wiping her device  to do a youtube comparison video :D

 

HOWEVER!!  What I will say is that after I factory reset using MY dism'ed wim the app updates have never crashed.  Maybe it's because it already contains this

 

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2808380

 

because im such a good guy, if anyone wants it for their XPS 10 let me know.  Trust me, it really does save HOURS!

[Dot Matrix]

We deal with large scale FIM and BYOD deployments.  Trust me, when you are coding complex meta-agents and device profiling, you need to make sure any changes are done on factory fresh machines.

 

ok, yeah, most people won't be factory resetting as much as us.....this was just ONE annoyance I was trying to highlight with MS and their 'tablet' OS

 

When it's more like a laptop in a tablet formfactor, that's good and bad

 

Then why not use System Restore?

 

Factory reset > Install updates > Create restore point > Do your thing > Revert to restore point > Install updates as needed > Create additional restore points as updates are installed > Do your thing > Rise, lather, and repeat

[technord]

Then why not use System Restore?

 

the project would never get signed off.  Some we can, but mostly we factory reset.  That's a side issue though, why we do this is not important.  Once configmgr 2012 R2 is out we shall more than likely just put a capture task sequence in and grab the image from a pre configured machine.  IF these can PXE boot all the better, else we'll have to use USB sticks again.

 

That doesn't get around the fact that factory resetting the machine looses any and all updates.  Can't understand why people think differently.  I'm not lying....trust me I wish I were.  Thinking about it, if MS extracted the WIM to the recovery partition and injected the updates simultaneously to the machine and the recovery partition together....that could work.

 

Sorry I kinda feel I've taken the thread off in another direction :blush:

[ahhell]

the project would never get signed off.  Some we can, but mostly we factory reset.  That's a side issue though, why we do this is not important.

 

That doesn't get around the fact that factory resetting the machine looses any and all updates.  Can't understand why people think differently.  I'm not lying....trust me I wish I were.  Thinking about it, if MS extracted the WIM to the recovery partition and injected the updates simultaneously to the machine and the recovery partition together....that could work.

It's a factory reset!!  It's not like it automatically dumps patches/updates into the factory WIM.  Geez. :s

[Dashel]

Stop trying to create solutions and actually understand his criticism for once.  Compared to other slates, RT has a lot more legacy 'PC' maint baggage.  You can't argue your way around that. 

[technord]

It's a factory reset!!  It's not like it automatically dumps patches/updates into the factory WIM.  Geez. :s

 

Hence my entire point :laugh:

[WinMunkee]

This article is bad. RT isn't going anywhere and hasn't had a chance to even mature yet. It's an OS for people that don't want to spend a lot of money, and need a portable consumption device. Give it time.

[technord]

Stop trying to create solutions and actually understand his criticism for once.  Compared to other slates, RT has a lot more legacy 'PC' maint baggage.  You can't argue your way around that. 

 

I'm pleased someone understands

 

Personally, work aside, I tried to install the Sky news app onto my own tablet.  It didn't work, just did nothing.  Rebooted (windows is installing update 1 of 39).

Then when it booted back up it started configuring updates.  Then when I finally got it, tried again and the app installed fine.

 

I think certain apps won't work if there are updates pending installation.

 

I was ok with it because I understand this stuff, but if MS wants greater market penetration with their offerings they really have to do better.

[HawkMan]

I have to say that the last time I did that on an iPhone 5, it didn't take very long.  Last time on an iPad was about a year ago and can't remember the exact time (im sure it wasn't anywhere near 2 hours though).

 

Actually my wife has an ipad, but not sure she would appreciate me wiping her device  to do a youtube comparison video :D

 

HOWEVER!!  What I will say is that after I factory reset using MY dism'ed wim the app updates have never crashed.  Maybe it's because it already contains this

 

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2808380

 

because im such a good guy, if anyone wants it for their XPS 10 let me know.  Trust me, it really does save HOURS!

 

 

you do realize you can't comapre the ipad installing full version revisions in the rom to windows' rolling updates right ? 

 

when 8.1 comes out, it might be treated as a full "service Pack" or new release and the recovery version will get updated, but it might not. it's not really it's purpose, the recovery image is there to be able to ALWAYS bring you back to a working factory OS, hence "factory" reset.  

 

remember windows 8 has two methods to reset. one that brings you all the back to factory, and one that just refreshes everything and removes everything that's been installed. 

 

in any case, even in your "special" BYOD environment, I don't see why you would be factory resetting all the time. something seems wrong there. Especially on windows RT there should be NO reason to keep factory resetting no matter what the environment you're in. 

[Thief000]

I liked the Samsung Ativ Tab. But then they decided not to release a keyboard dock or type cover for it, so I skipped it.

The Surface RT didn't have GPS, which I find very useful, so I skipped it.

 

Surface RT 2 will probably be released in the near future (rumors) so I hope that has GPS (and 3G/4G if possible) integrated.

[Growled Member]

I personally would never use RT. The main reason to use Windows for me is the x86/x64 apps.

[spaceelf]

I personally would never use RT. The main reason to use Windows for me is the x86/x64 apps.

I'd take it over iPad or Android because of the integration - HomeGroups and the multiarch stuff I already own on Windows Store for examples.  My Nexus 7 didn't even know what a local network WAS, much less try to connect me to it.

 

But then, I don't think I'd get one unless it was really cheap., and since they seem hell bent on that Office inclusion I doubt that'll happen.

[georgevella]

I personally would never use RT. The main reason to use Windows for me is the x86/x64 apps.

Exactly, nothing gets stuff done more than Windows, but rt makes for a good in-bed-before-sleep solution (damn i really need to get used to this split screen keyboard)

[SpiderNitro]

The only reason some OEMs didn't make windows phone devices was because of software fees. 

 

I believe Windows 8 and RT should get inspired by windows phone and release an OS with perfectly Optimized Windows Phone features for Tablet and Desktop PCs. And Take down software fees for the 3 Windows OSes! maybe they will do well

[technord]

I love the fact you can RDP to your win8 PC and use all the gestures as if you actually have full 8 Pro on it.

 

Unfortunately due to DRM, Silverlight doesn't stream over RDP (so no Lovefilm on RT).....and the Hulu site seems to stutter (Flash issue?) no matter if you select Low, Medium, High or HD

[Brandon Live Veteran]

well considering the wim file NEVER changes during a factory reset I think you'll find I am correct!

 

You can try it yourself.  Perform a factory reset.  Then do all the windows updates (which takes 4 reboots).  Then do all the app updates.

Now factory reset again and see if you need to update again.  YES YOU WILL!

 

If anyone can tell me how to factory reset an RT tablet whilst keeping all the updates I'll be VERY happy.  Will save my Infrastructure team hours whilst onsite at clients.

 

Example...

 

When iOS 7 is released you will perform the upgrade which installs into ROM.  Say you then factory reset.  You still got iOS7 :-)

 

When MS releases Windows 8.1 you will get it either from the store or via windows updates.  Say you then factory reset.  Because the wim file hasn't changed you will be restoring 8.0.  Which means you then have to install 8.1 again.  This is the point I'm trying to get across with windows updates.  They are NOT dismed into the wim

 

That's one of the core differences between MS tablet OSes and ios / android devices.  Hence me saying win8 is a double edge sword.  It has both pros and cons.

 

Monthly patches and the new OS update are entirely different things. You have no idea what the factory reset story is for a Surface RT with 8.1 installed.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Stop trying to create solutions and actually understand his criticism for once.  Compared to other slates, RT has a lot more legacy 'PC' maint baggage.  You can't argue your way around that. 

 

Yes you can. The iPad used to take a long time to do a factory restore (I'm going on the assumption that he's correct it's changed recently, but I'm skeptical). That has nothing to do with "PC baggage" of any kind. They're just different approaches. The iPad requires you to be plugged into a PC to restore it, so it would use the latest image iTunes had downloaded. The Surface includes the full restore image on a recovery partition. The advantage is you can always restore it without a disk or tethering to a machine (or an internet connection and the patience to download the whole thing). A disadvantage of the implementation is that the image doesn't include monthly updates. This isn't legacy, this is an entire feature that was built just for Windows 8/RT devices. It was just built with different priorities and requirements in mind than the iPad's solution of tethering to iTunes.

 

 

I still think he's not talking about doing a restore operation on the iPad and is just talking about the "reset to factory settings" option, which is nothing like doing a full reimage of the device.

[Dashel]

I still think he's not talking about doing a restore operation on the iPad and is just talking about the "reset to factory settings" option, which is nothing like doing a full reimage of the device.

 

Isn't that exactly the point right there?  That there isn't an equivalent action for what he is asking? On competing devices, you get a reset to factory settings which RT doesn't have.  It only give the option of a refresh, which isn't profile destructive, or the full PC-reinstall, which is more than just dropping the latest image 'on' the device.

 

Do you disagree that even the conception of 'monthly patches' is anathema to the competition's firmware type updates, which is really his point?

 

Sure, its a different approach, just like squashing 'down' Windows for slates instead of 'growing up' WP is a different approach (and hence the need to tether or not).  That still isn't a denial of what is factually true - RT is clearly more PC like (pro and con) than the competition or WP in the 'post-PC' world.

 

So my question to you is, if unification is the M.O. MS has adopted, why do they treat phones differently?  Why wasn't RT developed with them in mind and not just slates/desktops?

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Yes you can. The iPad used to take a long time to do a factory restore (I'm going on the assumption that he's correct it's changed recently, but I'm skeptical). That has nothing to do with "PC baggage" of any kind. They're just different approaches. The iPad requires you to be plugged into a PC to restore it, so it would use the latest image iTunes had downloaded. The Surface includes the full restore image on a recovery partition. The advantage is you can always restore it without a disk or tethering to a machine (or an internet connection and the patience to download the whole thing). A disadvantage of the implementation is that the image doesn't include monthly updates. This isn't legacy, this is an entire feature that was built just for Windows 8/RT devices. It was just built with different priorities and requirements in mind than the iPad's solution of tethering to iTunes.

 

 

I still think he's not talking about doing a restore operation on the iPad and is just talking about the "reset to factory settings" option, which is nothing like doing a full reimage of the device.

 

But it does carry that baggage.

 

For instance, the mount system of Linux made the update process for Android a lot smoother to do for Google. They have a clean separation between all user data and the OS data. Windows doesn't have a similar mount system so it is next to impossible to separate the OS from the user application and modifications in a live system. If this baggage didn't exist Microsoft could similarly update the "OS" partition as soon as an update is installed while ensuring that the user could clean the system of all of their changes without having to also wipe that OS partition.

 

This is the core of his complaint and to claim that the architectural decisions of Windows that Windows RT inherited don't contribute to the problem is an error I wouldn't expect you to make.

 

As he mentioned, there are pros and cons to this like all things that exist in our universe.

 

 

Isn't that exactly the point right there?  That there isn't an equivalent action for what he is asking? On competing devices, you get a reset to factory settings which RT doesn't have.  It only give the option of a refresh, which isn't profile destructive, or the full PC-reinstall, which is more than just dropping the latest image 'on' the device.

 

Do you disagree that even the conception of 'monthly patches' is anathema to the competition's firmware type updates, which is really his point?

 

Sure, its a different approach, just like squashing 'down' Windows for slates instead of 'growing up' WP is a different approach (and hence the need to tether or not).  That still isn't a denial of what is factually true - RT is clearly more PC like (pro and con) than the competition or WP in the 'post-PC' world.

 

So my question to you is, if unification is the M.O. MS has adopted, why do they treat phones differently?  Why wasn't RT developed with them in mind and not just slates/desktops?

 

This has confused me to no end regarding what Microsoft did with Windows 8. Their decision to pull Windows desktop down to the tablet and not to follow Apple's lead and pull the phone OS up to the tablet will forever confuse me. I think this was the major reason Windows RT has had as much trouble in the market as it has had. The tablet and the phone has far more in common than the desktop does at present. It would have been far better for them to pull the phone OS up and to build great connections between the shared phone + tablet OS with the desktop.

 

Sadly, it seems MS bet wrongly that by throwing the full Windows user base at developers they would gain some serious traction. We now know that hasn't happened. There are apps continuing to be released for Windows RT/Metro/Whatever the name is, but  we don't see it as the #1 or even #2 platform for new mobile app development.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Isn't that exactly the point right there?  That there isn't an equivalent action for what he is asking? On competing devices, you get a reset to factory settings which RT doesn't have.  It only give the option of a refresh, which isn't profile destructive, or the full PC-reinstall, which is more than just dropping the latest image 'on' the device.

 

Do you disagree that even the conception of 'monthly patches' is anathema to the competition's firmware type updates, which is really his point?

 

Sure, its a different approach, just like squashing 'down' Windows for slates instead of 'growing up' WP is a different approach (and hence the need to tether or not).  That still isn't a denial of what is factually true - RT is clearly more PC like (pro and con) than the competition or WP in the 'post-PC' world.

 

So my question to you is, if unification is the M.O. MS has adopted, why do they treat phones differently?  Why wasn't RT developed with them in mind and not just slates/desktops?

 

There may not be an identical option, but then Windows has a lot of options for which the iPad doesn't have an identical equivalent. Those differences aren't due to "legacy" on either platform (hell, iOS has older parts in it than Windows RT does!). They're just the result of different design and engineering teams building them.

 

I can't fathom at all how you can say that monthly updates is "anathema" to anything Apple does. Apple does monthly updates to iOS.

 

The update approach used by Windows is exactly what Microsoft would build if it built a brand new OS from scratch just for a tablet, or scaled up Windows Phone for a tablet. In fact, the latter is already what's there. Windows Phone uses Windows Update. Anyone on the servicing team will tell you that Microsoft's approach is vastly superior and more mature than what Apple has. But one reason for that is that Windows has far more complex requirements placed upon it, partly as a result of the wider customer base. There's a lot about the way Windows Update works that is designed to support things Apple doesn't have to worry about:

1) Different PC manufacturers (each shipping different driver and firmware updates through WU).

2) Different component manufacturers shipping drivers across vendors.

3) Enterprise manageability.

4) Other parties like wireless carriers being in the mix.

5) Handling updates for a wide variety of optional components and non-OS software (i.e. Office and other MS products).

 

It is very, very easy to argue that the complex requirements met by that system and its maturity (and its scale, way beyond anything Apple has conceived of) is a virtue. Especially when the end result is functionally equivalent or superior for the vast majority of tablet customers.

 

There is no "post-PC" world. There's just a "post 'PCs as they were ten years ago'" world.

 

Phones are a different screen size. That dictates a different UI both for the OS and the apps, among other important differences. That's why iOS has different versions with different ship schedules between iPhone and iPad, for example. Similar thing with Windows. iOS has better API unification there, but Windows and Windows Phone are doing better at that with each release. And Windows has perfect API unification across tablets and other PC form factors. Apple has next to none, though they're taking baby steps toward that each year.

 

And keep in mind, just because both parties lack complete unification across all three (sometimes arbitrary) delineations, doesn't mean they aren't all going to end up there. They're just approaching it from different directions and sometimes at a different pace.

 

What's ridiculous is to say that Windows RT suffers because of "legacy" it carries and that iOS on the iPad doesn't. The iPad clearly suffers from legacy baggage from its iPhone roots, and both carry a lot of legacy from Mac OS/Darwin/Mach/etc. Hell, the input system in iOS is clearly deficient when compared to what Windows RT has, which was hugely re-engineered for 8/RT. My iPad Mini stutters when panning web pages loading a lot of content, or running heavy javascript. That's not possible on Windows because of the architecture (everything about panning is handled on a separate thread, both input and UI). It's easy to argue that the iOS way of handling input (processed on the UI thread, with message pump filters to kind of sort of mitigate busy app UI code) is legacy from its roots in the pre-touch and composition based GUI era. In addition to stuttering it has annoying side effects, like blocking the app UI thread while panning, which is why if you pan past the bottom of what it's rendered you'll see blank (or checkerboard) forever until you lift your finger. That won't happen on Windows because it has independent panning. Exactly the sort of modern, non-legacy thing I expect on a touch OS in 2013 :-)

[Auditor]

Im soooo tired of retarded articles like this...as soon as I see this uninformed garbage I move on

You did not move on but you read this article and cared to reply. By the way your fanboyism to support RT can not help its demise.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

But it does carry that baggage.

 

For instance, the mount system of Linux made the update process for Android a lot smoother to do for Google. They have a clean separation between all user data and the OS data. Windows doesn't have a similar mount system so it is next to impossible to separate the OS from the user application and modifications in a live system. If this baggage didn't exist Microsoft could similarly update the "OS" partition as soon as an update is installed while ensuring that the user could clean the system of all of their changes without having to also wipe that OS partition.

 

This is the core of his complaint and to claim that the architectural decisions of Windows that Windows RT inherited don't contribute to the problem is an error I wouldn't expect you to make.

 

As he mentioned, there are pros and cons to this like all things that exist in our universe.

 

 

 

This has confused me to no end regarding what Microsoft did with Windows 8. Their decision to pull Windows desktop down to the tablet and not to follow Apple's lead and pull the phone OS up to the tablet will forever confuse me. I think this was the major reason Windows RT has had as much trouble in the market as it has had. The tablet and the phone has far more in common than the desktop does at present. It would have been far better for them to pull the phone OS up and to build great connections between the shared phone + tablet OS with the desktop.

 

Sadly, it seems MS bet wrongly that by throwing the full Windows user base at developers they would gain some serious traction. We now know that hasn't happened. There are apps continuing to be released for Windows RT/Metro/Whatever the name is, but  we don't see it as the #1 or even #2 platform for new mobile app development.

 

I didn't follow any of this. So Linux baggage is good but Windows baggage is bad? And your example is weird. Windows supports drive mounting exactly as Linux does (okay, maybe with more options). In neither case does the "mount" architecture or its results have any effect on either system's ability to handle updates. So yeah, I have no idea what you were getting at there. Also, on Windows RT apps have absolutely no ability to put anything anywhere that Windows doesn't carefully manage. Again, nothing to do with "mount" - it's a feature of the sandboxed permission model.

 

Pulling the Phone OS up to tablets would've been suicide for Microsoft, and a hugely wasteful and wrongheaded approach. I honestly can't imagine anyone making even a slightly convincing argument for going that path, for innumerable reasons.

 

The platform isn't even a year old yet, and it's growing at a far faster pace than either iOS or Android did their first years. Way too early to be making any calls about its success or failure.

 

Tablets and laptops have way more in common than phones and tablets. The vastly different screen size being the most important differentiation. There's a reason Apple doesn't ship the same OS on iPhone and iPad (they may call it the same, but the different release schedules betray the truth). Tablet screen sizes facility things like physical keyboard use, multi-tasking, and of course result in very different requirements for UI design. All of which is also exactly the same for laptops and to a large extent for desktops (which only push those aspects further).

 

Never mind that it's bizarre to say Windows should've "grown the phone up" when the phone started out as a shrunken down Windows!

[Torolol]

current Tegra3 based RT are obsolete anyway, theres other Tegra4 tablets around.