Self Publishing now allowed on Xbox One.

[HawkMan]

Already told you before we have different opinions that we can't agree on, so why bother replying with the same response to me? Just ignore my posts.

 

So we're down to choosing the fact we're believing in now.

 

Can't believe I'm saying this, but AB is right, this forum is turning into a religion... and the earth is only 6000 years old. 

 

Go back and watch the reveal and hear what they say, what they sad are facts. 

 

I'm not saying Microsoft didn't plan to change self-publishing or denying they'd announce it later. I'm saying they didn't have a choice, it was always going to happen and they've probably held off/planned it for a long time.

 

 

Then I would also argue that Microsofts hand wasn't force, HOWEVER, they forced Sony's hand to do better this generation. 

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

I honestly couldn't give two ###### what you, AB or anyone else has to say about the matter. I'm certainly not going to chase people around the internet trying to change their mind or telling others they are wrong.

 

I have an opinion, I'm posting it.

 

"Deal with it" :)

[ahhell]

I honestly couldn't give two ****s what you, AB or anyone else has to say about the matter. I'm certainly not going to chase people around the internet trying to change their mind or telling others they are wrong.

 

I have an opinion, I'm posting it.

 

"Deal with it" :)

 

Nice to see that you're being mature about it.  :s

[spacer]

@Hawkman and jerzdawg vs. DrunkmMunky

 

When did Microsoft officially say they were going to support self-publishing for indie developers during the Xbone reveal or E3? You even stated yourselves that all Microsoft said was, "we will announce our plans at a later time." Their phrasing, in no way, explicitly stated or hinted at the fact that they were going to have some form of self-publishing. Most people just assumed that's what it meant, but there really was no official proof until last week's announcement.

 

For all we know, Microsoft DID change their policy on account of Sony's stance on the matter and the industry reaction to it. None of us will ever know for sure one way or the other. I think that's all DM was getting at.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

@Hawkman and jerzdawg vs. DrunkmMunky

 

When did Microsoft officially say they were going to support self-publishing for indie developers during the Xbone reveal or E3? You even stated yourselves that all Microsoft said was, "we will announce our plans at a later time." Their phrasing, in no way, explicitly stated or hinted at the fact that they were going to have some form of self-publishing. Most people just assumed that's what it meant, but there really was no official proof until last week's announcement.

 

For all we know, Microsoft DID change their policy on account of Sony's stance on the matter and the industry reaction to it. None of us will ever know for sure one way or the other. I think that's all DM was getting at.

 

Pretty much.

 

 

Nice to see that you're being mature about it.  :s

 

I'm simply cutting off the "discussion" before it goes round in another circle for the umpteenth time, particularly when I've already explained to him to not reply to me about it when we can't agree. Could be worse, I could be dragging people into a conversation who aren't even here or participating in it or playing the religion/fanboy card...

[trooper11]

Microsoft didn't have a choice, developers and indies forced their hand. Otherwise they look like the bad platform out of them all when they don't sell X game and have a smaller selection on Marketplace.

 

Competition ftw (Y)

 

 

I agree that MS is reacting to what the market wants.  You guys can argue when MS decided to do this all you want, but the fact is that they have reacted.

 

The only point I'd make about MS' plans is that the reality is that MS was working on changes like this long before E3. The X1 was going to incorporate the Win 8 core from day one and that was a pretty clear indication that the X1 was going to a pretty different beast from the 360. Now that I've seen the MS hints/demos regarding apps created in Win 8 working on the X1, it seems clear that MS was planning early on to bring over the pc infrastructure and that would mean more pc like policies, including self publishing.

 

MS apparently looked at the market and consumer demand back when the X1 design began and decided to make changes to the closed 360 style platform.

 

I think the reason some people get touchy about this subject is that some are claiming that MS is terrible for reacting to demand. They actually attack MS for making positive choices, as if it hurts us or gamers in general. To me, those that rail against the positive MS news are those dedicated to the 'console wars', dedicated to the argument, not just a customer looking at something to buy.

[Noir Angel]

Why. MS can't change the resources available to a one and two man basement team of guys who code games on their spare time. once your games get bigger than this and have the budget for triple A graphics, then you'll not just want, you'll need a publisher to be able to recoup your investment.

 

Why not? Is there some specific rational behind forcing people to use publishers that I'm missing out on? It's not 1997, the Internet means anything really good will usually receive some attention and get played, the only thing using big publishers does is helps those publishers and Microsoft further line their pockets. The Indie games on Steam for example are very popular from what I can gather so I can't see any reason why smaller developers can't succeed without a publisher, nor do I see anything that would justify forcing them to use one.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

I agree that MS is reacting to what the market wants.  You guys can argue when MS decided to do this all you want, but the fact is that they have reacted.

 

The only point I'd make about MS' plans is that the reality is that MS was working on changes like this long before E3. The X1 was going to incorporate the Win 8 core from day one and that was a pretty clear indication that the X1 was going to a pretty different beast from the 360. Now that I've seen the MS hints/demos regarding apps created in Win 8 working on the X1, it seems clear that MS was planning early on to bring over the pc infrastructure and that would mean more pc like policies, including self publishing.

 

MS apparently looked at the market and consumer demand back when the X1 design began and decided to make changes to the closed 360 style platform.

 

I think the reason some people get touchy about this subject is that some are claiming that MS is terrible for reacting to demand. They actually attack MS for making positive choices, as if it hurts us or gamers in general. To me, those that rail against the positive MS news are those dedicated to the 'console wars', dedicated to the argument, not just a customer looking at something to buy.

 

Agreed.

 

Somehow people interpret my comments as an attack on their favourite console and company. Like I've said though, I'm extremely happy about the decision and I just wish they had done it 5 years ago to avoid all the bad rep / broken relationships they've created because of their policies.

 

Somehow I go from being a Microsoft fanboy on this forum and switching to a Sony fanboy overnight in some people's minds because I don't have nice things to say all the time. Go figure! As it stands I'm actually going to probably end up with an X1 first before the PS4 now they've backtracked on my biggest gripes. Just want them to include a headset and lower the price to remain competitive now.

 

Why not? Is there some specific rational behind forcing people to use publishers that I'm missing out on? It's not 1997, the Internet means anything really good will usually receive some attention and get played, the only thing using big publishers does is helps those publishers and Microsoft further line their pockets. The Indie games on Steam for example are very popular from what I can gather so I can't see any reason why smaller developers can't succeed without a publisher, nor do I see anything that would justify forcing them to use one.

 

I wouldn't bother discussing indies with him. He seems to think that they're all whiney basement dwellers who can't work well with others. You're completely right though. It lined their pockets and benefited them with timed exclusivity. Microsoft's old indie policies were backwards as hell and severely outdated.

[HawkMan]

@Hawkman and jerzdawg vs. DrunkmMunky

 

When did Microsoft officially say they were going to support self-publishing for indie developers during the Xbone reveal or E3? You even stated yourselves that all Microsoft said was, "we will announce our plans at a later time." Their phrasing, in no way, explicitly stated or hinted at the fact that they were going to have some form of self-publishing. Most people just assumed that's what it meant, but there really was no official proof until last week's announcement.

 

For all we know, Microsoft DID change their policy on account of Sony's stance on the matter and the industry reaction to it. None of us will ever know for sure one way or the other. I think that's all DM was getting at.

 

They also at the time and repeatedly thereafter said "We do have plans for indies, and they'll be revealed later"

 

they wheren't supposed to be revealed yet either, but all the whiny indie bitches made them announce their plans now instead of at one of the later in the year dev conferences. probably around the time they opened the 360 to indies.

[HawkMan]

Why not? Is there some specific rational behind forcing people to use publishers that I'm missing out on? It's not 1997, the Internet means anything really good will usually receive some attention and get played, the only thing using big publishers does is helps those publishers and Microsoft further line their pockets. The Indie games on Steam for example are very popular from what I can gather so I can't see any reason why smaller developers can't succeed without a publisher, nor do I see anything that would justify forcing them to use one.

 

What does any of that have to do with anything I said in that post.

 

a small indie team simply doesn't have the time or resources for triple A graphics. just a single character or mob model is extremely expensive to do, without any textures, you have hundreds of hours to make the super high res movie quality model, this one has athe sole purpose of being used to make a normal map. and then you have to redo the model from the ground up to make the high res in game model, this will potentially be nearly as many hours. And if you want any sort of quality to your lower LOD models you need to model your mid and low LOD models as well. though these would generally be faster to do, but still tens of hours. 

 

Then the model(s) have to be skinned (well first you have to make the skeleton) for animation, You have to tweak the IK solution, and you have to make the animations. 

 

And of course, it needs textures. 

 

all in all the man hours just to get a single fully animated and usable in game models is astronomic for a indie developer. And that's just to make the character models, not the music, levels, props, story, FMVs in game or rendered, not to mention the coding of the actual game. 

 

Now once an indie game has the budget to do a triple A game like this, with a team of probably well over a hundred people counting regulars and hired help, you need a publisher to help you recoup the costs and to advertise and market the game, since you can't sell such a game for 10-20 dollars. Never mind the fact no indie studio would have the 10-20 million minimum to bankroll such a game without a publisher in the first place. 

 

As much money as Schafer got for his indie game through KS, he's now looking for investors as well, and that was a simple adventure game. as much money as the new "Wing Commander" game got, not even close, they have major investors and the KS was merely a "look how much interest there is and how much money we got from fans, now give us the rest". 

[dead.cell]

They also at the time and repeatedly thereafter said "We do have plans for indies, and they'll be revealed later"

 

they wheren't supposed to be revealed yet either, but all the whiny indie bitches made them announce their plans now instead of at one of the later in the year dev conferences. probably around the time they opened the 360 to indies.

 

So what? We wait for Microsoft to pull their thumbs out of their butt?

 

What difference does it make? Oh, that's right: none.

 

In case you missed it, Microsoft is very capable of listening to the public. But instead of praising them for that, you bash everyone else instead. Microsoft is just a company making a gaming machine. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but they aren't making this for themselves, they're making it for us gamers and the developers who want the opportunity to have rich tools at their disposable so that both they and Microsoft can continue operating and making money together.

 

Why is everyone so mad lately? :huh:

[Yogurtmaster]

Microsoft didn't have a choice, developers and indies forced their hand. Otherwise they look like the bad platform out of them all when they don't sell X game and have a smaller selection on Marketplace.

 

Competition ftw (Y)

There is something for your to consider. I believe this was the plan all along. See, one of the best things about a Virtual Machine is that if something goes wrong, they can automatically restore the VM instantly back to where it was. So, this console in "theory" should be harder to brick. Both the application VM and the games VM are isolated in their own sandbox. The hypervisor allows communication between both virtual machines.

What this means is that its easier to deploy updates and other software to the VMs. For game development, this is a no brainer.

The reason why they are not launching with this, is because there is a LOT to do before launch and it's harder to get things out because there is so much to do with so few people to do it.

Microsoft's machine is fairly complex and there is a lot going on as you know.

So, I feel that while people feel and understandably so that this is a response to Sony. I just feel it isn't and has been the plan all along.

[CygnusOrion]

The real issue has Microsoft so completely alienated the indie devs that it doesn't matter how much they reform their publishing policies. The damage is irreversible.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

There is something for your to consider. I believe this was the plan all along. See, one of the best things about a Virtual Machine is that if something goes wrong, they can automatically restore the VM instantly back to where it was. So, this console in "theory" should be harder to brick. Both the application VM and the games VM are isolated in their own sandbox. The hypervisor allows communication between both virtual machines.

What this means is that its easier to deploy updates and other software to the VMs. For game development, this is a no brainer.

The reason why they are not launching with this, is because there is a LOT to do before launch and it's harder to get things out because there is so much to do with so few people to do it.

Microsoft's machine is fairly complex and there is a lot going on as you know.

So, I feel that while people feel and understandably so that this is a response to Sony. I just feel it isn't and has been the plan all along.

 

Even if it were the plan all along sitting on it for this long was stupid. Sony broke their new indie policies in February, why it would take MS till near the end of July is a good question.

[Yogurtmaster]

Even if it were the plan all along sitting on it for this long was stupid. Sony broke their new indie policies in February, why it would take MS till near the end of July is a good question.

You are right it is a good question. They have been holding back a lot of information on the Xbox One, not just this but a lot of things.

I pretty much thought that everything would be shown by May 21st, E3, and the Build conference. Clearly this isn't the case. I think it will give Sony a head start but over time it won't matter. A year from launch nobody will care anymore.

I am also interested to see if the Wi-Fi 3-D HMD (Head Mounted Display) glasses will come out in 2014 with Kudo Tsunoda showing it off next E3.

I am interested to see if the glasses do "Augmented reality" or "Virtual Reality" or both. Having that with Kinect controlling your actions would be interesting to say the least.

The real issue has Microsoft so completely alienated the indie devs that it doesn't matter how much they reform their publishing policies. The damage is irreversible.

Nope, I doubt anyone will care. Once every Xbox One can be turned over to a development box for a price people will go crazy with it. Is Sony going to give everyone who wants one a cheap dev kit for a very small price? Somehow I doubt it.

[JonnyLH]

Even if it were the plan all along sitting on it for this long was stupid. Sony broke their new indie policies in February, why it would take MS till near the end of July is a good question.

Announcing that every X1 has the potential to be a dev kit is a massive thing. Stuff like that takes a lot of testing and security checks. They probably finalised it recently, I don't think people realise how close these companies cut it close with the release. The consoles simply aren't done.

[spenser.d]

The real issue has Microsoft so completely alienated the indie devs that it doesn't matter how much they reform their publishing policies. The damage is irreversible.

What damage. The mass market isn't exactly clamoring for indie games, and they get most of the good ones to jump on xbla anyways.

[Thief000]

I'm soooo going to make emulator ports for the Xbox One. Have already experimented with this on the Xbox 360 with XNA and it worked pretty while it was all very limited.

 

I can't wait to see if I can get Dolphin to work, or maybe a port of PCSX2. It's going to be fun!

[ahhell]

The real issue has Microsoft so completely alienated the indie devs that it doesn't matter how much they reform their publishing policies. The damage is irreversible.

 

I don't think you know how business works.  Indie devs are no different from big devs.  They will go where the money is.  Shunning a console (and a huge potential fan base) because of some "moral high ground" is just asinine.

[HawkMan]

The real issue has Microsoft so completely alienated the indie devs that it doesn't matter how much they reform their publishing policies. The damage is irreversible.

Indies need all the income they can get, which means the Xbox user base is much to large to ignore, unless you're a self righteous pompous self declared gods gift to gamers, also known as blowfish.

But the vast majority of indies go on every platform they can, at least those that sell more than 160k units a quarter anyway.

[HawkMan]

You are right it is a good question. They have been holding back a lot of information on the Xbox One, not just this but a lot of things.

Arguably, MS could/should have revealed all the information they had right away at the reveal or E3. It would have made gamers happier.

However, MS has achieved something else by doing it it in a trickle, which is probably their goal, people are still talking about it.there's huge articles about MS latest leak, rumor and their actual announcements. And they're gaining positive response for every new announcement.

Meanwhile, Sony and the PS4 is all but forgotten, the only really announcements they have made since E3 has been meaningless numbers. 15 of recording history and their other recent rather meaningless number. These aren't things that excite the gaming Punic to the same degree as MS constant trickling of new rumors and announcements.

For gamers who want to know everything right away, Sonys way is better, for MS themselves and marketing, their way is better.

In the end, it doesn't matter, they'll both sell out and possibly kill Nintendos future as a hardware vendor. As they have no first party coming out until next year about, and with o third party, I don't think Nintendo can sell the WiiU on smash rows and Mario kart and a Zelda game alone...

[Torolol]

if MS revealed the information about indies month earlier, the indies might as well began develop their game earlier, longer time to test & iron out the problem,

but then again Forza 5 has set example, that you can get away with 'day one patch' ;)

[HawkMan]

How would indies start developing when they still need a either a dev kit or a one to use as a dev kit...

A lot of smart indies already "knew" this was coming and was already working on their code anyway, and besides if they develop for windows using VS and DX porting to the Xbox is often a one click solution if they have added game pad support properly.

[MikeChipshop Member]

if MS revealed the information about indies month earlier, the indies might as well began develop their game earlier, longer time to test & iron out the problem,

but then again Forza 5 has set example, that you can get away with 'day one patch' ;)

 

NDA's my friend, NDA's. If you think this wasn't already known then you're kidding yourself.

[trooper11]

 

 

Why is everyone so mad lately? :huh:

 

That is a great question. I get very tired of following forums and reading any comments on YouTube or on stories for this very reason.

 

Gaming discussion is a hot bed for trolls and angry outbursts. The console wars are ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

The real issue has Microsoft so completely alienated the indie devs that it doesn't matter how much they reform their publishing policies. The damage is irreversible.

 

 

I have my doubts that it is that bad. The reason I think that indie developers will give MS another chance is three fold:

 

1. MS is making all the right moves to offer developers features that matter to them.

 

2. These developers will give a second chance to anyone that offers them something they want, just look at Sony's turn around.

 

3. Most indie developers and developers in general aren't fanboys for one company nor do they hold grudges like people posting around the net do.  They react to changes from each company and support the ones that match their needs.