Steve Ballmer

[MorganX]

And would a rushed-but flawed product have been accepted?

 

Windows 8 has, in fact, been attacked for both those issues - being rushed AND being flawed (either or even both at once).

 

It really doesn't help that Windows 8 is competing directly with the still-supported (for another eight years, at minimum) Windows 7. 

 

And how has the iPhone's success been apparent?

 

Microsoft is, apparently, supposed to succeed despite every possible obstacle that can be thrown at it - whether by competition or regulation.

 

Given that sort of unrelenting pressure - year in and year out - I'm not surprised that Steve Ballmer has had enough.

 

Windows 8's success is clouded by inertia. Any Windows OS MS sells is going to sell hundreds of millions because it is the default OS the OEMs install on PCs by and large. However, due to the nature of the changes, enterprises are slow to adopt, there is no mindshare, consumers are not clamoring for it, the Modern UI has limited support as it was limited in its initial scope (touch/tablets), and as you said, it has to compete with 7, which from and end users standpoint, wasn't broken. MS knew that, and made bad decisions and released half finished and poorly thought out software anyway. There was bad decision making throughout. Having said that, Windows 8 is headed in the right direction as is Modern UI, of course, in its second year ...

 

iPhone, success - It's what consumers want, it has been the leading smartphone, and is till the standard most look too. No other phone has the application or peripheral support, and Apple would be dead without it. It ushered in the touch-centric mobile era (along with iPad) and destroyed Windows Mobile. It's still making inroads into the enterprise (that will eventually cease as WP keeps improving, unless it dies). In the consumer space, MS took waaay too long to realize Metro was needed and not shoehorning a K/M UI on to a mobile device best suited for touch navigation.

 

This time around Microsoft tripped over it's own feet. No one asked them to release Windows 8/RT with horrendous core apps (consumer bait), that totally disrupted the desktop experience for many, etc. That didn't work well with Windows Phone 8, that left the phone, Surface, & Desktop feeling completely disconnected and not a part of any cohesive ecosystem, etc. It was just bad decision making, poor planning and communication. They're under the same obstacles and microscope whether they succeed or fail. That's not a blanket excuse. Mistakes were made, people were let go, new people promoted, and it appears things are headed in the right direction. With the same obstacles and microscope as always. There's no excuse other than to change management for the past year IMO. At least I wouldn't accept any.

[MorganX]

Again, if Windows 8 wrecked the ecosystem, we would have seen a jump in Macbooks and iMacs.

No, you would have seen people stay with Windows 7 and avoid Windows 8. PGHammer is correct in stating  that Windows 7 is stiff competition.

 

If XP lasted a decade, how long do you think Windows 7 can last? It's much more robust and stable than XP. There are many reasons MS rushed 8, financial and otherwise.  EA customers seeing no value in certain parts of their agreements and having the opportunity to drop them (stop paying) being one of them. Not something people talk about much, but I can promise you it is real.

[adrynalyne]

Well, statistics prove that Apple PC sales are well above that of PC.

 

"Apple remained the top PC vendor in Q2, with a 4.5 million unit lead over second-placed Lenovo"

http://www.canalys.com/newsroom/pc-market-flat-q2-2013-despite-tablet-growth

 

U.S. Mac Sales Down in June Despite Introduction of New MacBook Airs

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/22/u-s-mac-sales-down-in-june-despite-introduction-of-new-macbook-airs/

 

Apple Sells 3.95M Macs In Q2 2013, Nearly Flat From Q2 2012 And Down 1.25% Sequentially

http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/23/apple-mac-sales-q2-2013/

 

Doesn't sound to me like Windows 8 is doing much of anything for Apple.

 

Then there is this:

PC sales up 24% in Q2 2013; weak rupee affects enterprise spend

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-08-23/news/41440918_1_pc-market-q2-2013-pc-shipments

 

Then you could look at Apple being a number one OEM, which != PC sales as a market.  You misinterpreted it.

[adrynalyne]

No, you would have seen people stay with Windows 7 and avoid Windows 8.

Maybe., maybe not.  I don't think the average consumer rushes out to buy a new PC due to OS, but rather need.  I could be wrong, however.

[MorganX]

Well, statistics prove that Apple PC sales are well above that of PC.

 

"Apple remained the top PC vendor in Q2, with a 4.5 million unit lead over second-placed Lenovo"

http://www.canalys.com/newsroom/pc-market-flat-q2-2013-despite-tablet-growth

 

It's clear that Microsoft royally screwed it's own OS.

 That's as an individual vendor. Apple is the only pc maker selling Macs. The rest of the top 10 all sell PCs whose sales dwarf Mac sales even in a bad quarter.

[MorganX]

Maybe., maybe not.  I don't think the average consumer rushes out to buy a new PC due to OS, but rather need.  I could be wrong, however.

 

Oh, on that, I completely agree.

[ATLien_0]

The difference is that Ballmer isn't a visionary like Jobs was or even Gates.   

[Growled Member]

Maybe., maybe not.  I don't think the average consumer rushes out to buy a new PC due to OS, but rather need.  I could be wrong, however.

I think you are exactly right. Windows has gotten too reliable. If it's working, and working fine, people don't see a need to upgrade.

[vcfan]

 

/thread

 

wait until the rest of steve ballmers plan unfolds to release sub $300 win8 touch devices that they've been working on, then its really going to be a slaughter.

[ctebah]

Why build upon failure? Windows 8.1 isn't going to save Surface.

[MorganX]

Why build upon failure? Windows 8.1 isn't going to save Surface.

 

I think it can, having installed the preview. It had 2 major problems, well 3. #1 bad speakers/sound. It's gotten better, but sucks still. #2 Windows 8 RT/RTM and the core apps just bad. #3 limited apps (tablet apps).

 

8.1 looks like it will fix #2, and apps are coming slowly but surely. Some of the games are really good. Unfortunately, the good ones are $6.99.

 

On second generation hardware it will be even better. Things still look grim, but as a hater of Windows 8 RTM, I have to say it's got a chance, it's looking good, even Xbox Music and Video. With the new management, I wouldn't bet against them.

 

Lose enough bananas and even an 800lb. gorilla will take a step back and rethink his strategy. Remember when AMD was stomping all over Intel's processors. Then Intel Israel produced the Merom mobile processor based on the Core microarchitecture? They haven't looked back since...

[PGHammer]

Why build upon failure? Windows 8.1 isn't going to save Surface.

And Surface is a failure compared to what - Android?

 

Surface/RT and Android aren't in the same price range.  If Surface (in fact, RT in general) competes with anything in the tablet/slate space it's the iPad - and even to an extent, Windows (both 7 and 8, which are also competing with the selfsame iPad).

If one company has lost marketshare in the tablet space, it's Apple - their own sales numbers of iPads reflect that.  Further, Microsoft has, in fact, not been even going after Android tablets or slates with their ads for Surface - in print or any other media.  Also, the OEMs selling RT hardware also (by and large) are Android OEMs as well.  You're reading WAY too much into Surface and why it's out there.

 

Surface, as a product, is three things - first off, it's a high-end reference-standard RT platform.  There is little or nothing low-end about a Surface compared to anything except a Retina iPad - which beats it ONLY in terms of the display.

Second, neither Surface RT or Surface Pro has ANY bloat.  Unlike RT (or Windows, for that matter) from Microsoft OEMs, Surface RT and Surface Pro are Microsoft Signature platforms - no bloat OR crapware.  Name an Android OEM that sells tablets sans bloat or crapware.  There is exactly one other tablet OEM that has no bloat or crapware on their tablets by default - Apple.

Lastly, where is the Android high-end tablet?  Three words - there isn't one.  Not even Acer or ASUS has repurposed their RT stock to run Android - which is certainly possible, since the hardware is of higher quality tthan anything they have running Android today, and exceeds the specs of even the nVidia Shield.  That speaks of a rather telling tactic, and not merely among the various Android OEMs, but Google  - they have staked out the low-end tablet turf for their own, and are purposely avoiding direct competition with the iPad.

 

Microsoft, basically, is doing what Google has refused to in the tablet space - go after Apple on their own turf.

 

.It's working, despite how much you may think otherwise.  Surface's marketshare came out of somebody's hide or hides.

[ctebah]

Really? So how do you explain the huge write down or the fact that most 3rd party OEMs have pulled out of surface RT project.

So let me repeat myself again, it's a FAILURE.

[MorganX]

Really? So how do you explain the huge write down or the fact that most 3rd party OEMs have pulled out of surface RT project.

So let me repeat myself again, it's a FAILURE.

 How about it's first year has been a failure, and it appears to be on life support, but it's not actually dead.

[adrynalyne]

Really? So how do you explain the huge write down or the fact that most 3rd party OEMs have pulled out of surface RT project.

So let me repeat myself again, it's a FAILURE.

Microsoft is a software company.  Consoles aside, they should have known better.  I doubt any OS would have saved the Surface.

[ctebah]

How about it's first year has been a failure, and it appears to be on life support, but it's not actually dead.

That analogy would actually work better. The majority of consumers skipped both the PRO and RT versions and upgrading their hardware or software isn't going to change that.

[MorganX]

Don't count Ballmer out until he's actually packed his desk and left the campus. Within 12 Months the following will happen:

 

• Windows 8.1 will be released
• Windows Phone GDR2 will be released
• Nokia Tablet will be released
• Windows RT Tablets will have cellular
• Developers will begin producing more Windows Phone apps, and now lifestyle peripherals can be supported on the most popular phones (Nokia) with BT 4.0, an area iPhone/Pad totally dominates.
• Developers will be reaching the top of the learning curve for producing AAA Modern UI Apps and will have 8.1 to execute them in.
• Xbox One will be released
• Killer Instinct for Xbox One will be released, lol
• More good PC games will be released thanks to both PS4 and XB1 having a PC architecture

This could be a post-dated resignation. "Here's my resignation, I'll sign it if I don't succeed in the next 12 months." Ballmer has the balls to do it. Under this scenario, he continues to perform without all the pressure.

 

It was a bad first year due to bad management IMO, but like the Surface, they've survived (all that are left) the very painful R&D costs. It's all upside from here. I think MS owes its loyal customers something. Like more free Windows Media Center codes or something along those lines. They suffered with them, without Vaseline this time around.

 

PS: If HTC ever released the promised metal unibody the One with Windows Phone, look out. I'll buy one on the spot.

[MorganX]

That analogy would actually work better. The majority of consumers skipped both the PRO and RT versions and upgrading their hardware or software isn't going to change that.

 

They were both a little expensive, especially the PRO. We bought a lot of Pros and they are generally loved. But that's in the enterprise. Surface RT and new tabs are and will hopefully remain cheaper. Then need to stick at $249 or less.

 

At the end of the day, PC, tablet, or phone, it's ALL about the software. OS and Apps. And MS has a huge margin for improvement there.

 

Hey, I agree, they totally blew it, unnecessarily the first year. Ballmer should be censured for letting Sinofsky run wild, but they've weathered all that and are fixing their mistakes. Remember the Start Button would never come back? This is one of the hardest things for established leaders to do, accept your mistakes and correct them. Gotta give Ballmer credit for that. It's just somewhat inexcusable he let these things happen in the first place. I think that's where he can be criticized. But they are in a good position and poised to strike back. The Mobile area will be tough, but Apple's iOS 7 is, meh. I predict MS kicking some major ass the next 12 months. And installing Windows 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT has done nothing but encourage that thought.

[PGHammer]

Microsoft is a software company.  Consoles aside, they should have known better.  I doubt any OS would have saved the Surface.

Those same third-party OEMs kept right on selling Android hardware, even WHILE selling RT hardware.  Microsoft did NOT ask them to stop selling Android hardware.

 

For the OEMs, it is very much all about margin - with Android, they actually HAVE a profit margin (for two reasons, they pay less overall, even with royalty payments to Microsoft added on, in terms of software, AND the hardware required to run Android is cheaper).  With RT, even during a robust economy (which the current one is anything but), the margin is basically none - even the critics admit that Microsoft is likely LOSING money on Surface.

 

I don't blame the Acer Group - or ASUS - for throwing in the towel (as I said, it is indeed all about margin for them).

 

Surface was NOT designed to go after Android - contrary to the thinking of practically all of its critics; it would be like Windows going after Linux.  If RT, or even Surface, were designed, or planned for that matter, to take on Android, why is it that Microsoft did not ask a single RT OEM to not sell Android hardware?

 

Surface (and RT) were designed to go after the iPad in particular.  Yes - the RT App Store needs more apps (of high quality) - the absolute LAST thing Microsoft needs is for the RT App Store to devolve into Google Play.  (That's right - I specifically said DEVOLVE - the ONLY thing Google Play has going for it is app count.  App quality on Google Play is actually WORSE than that of the Android Market it replaced; that is one reason why some quality third-party developers want no part of Google Play - too much riffraff.)

[MorganX]

Windows 8 will have to prove itself to me, with much better sales before I bet on it.

 

I'm not sure I understand. What if it does all you need, very well, offers a lot of new capability/way of working but doesn't set the market's mindshare on fire and basically only sells because it's now the default version of Windows.

 

What does sales have to do with whether or not it works well for you?

[123456789A]

You mean to tell me more smartphones are sold than PCs and that this is all Windows 8's fault?!

 

I get it. Windows 8 is so bad that people run far away from their PC and realize they still need some kind of computer, so they get a smartphone instead.

[DeadEndAccount]

Were that true, then Apple's laptop and desktop sales should be skyrocketing.

 

Of course, they aren't, are they?  No...people are moving to more mobile and portable devices: tablets and smartphones.  I am sure it is easier to place blame on Microsoft though than look at the bigger picture.  Laptops and desktops have been "good enough" for a while and have not inspired people to upgrade.  That alone will cause PC sales to drop.

 

You're assuming that you can just drop in a Mac and replace what you have with minimum drama which simply isn't the case.

[Sandor]

And once again Windows 8 is the root cause of Microsoft's downfall, the MS fanboy defense patrol and apologists will certainly deny this but worldwide statistics prove it. The Windows 8 adoption rate has been a disaster, not to mention the lackluster WP platform which barely took off after 3 years. Microsoft cannot simply compete with Apple, they will only fail by doing so. Ballmer shot himself in the foot when he alienated the whole PC with all this unwanted touchscreen garbage which the average joe considers to be cumbersome, inappropriate, meaningless and totally fugly on a traditional PC.

top comedy.

 

You know Win8 will pass OSX usage any day now right? Less than a year after release?

 

You'll find WP8 doing rather well in a lot of countries around the world too. It's not an overnight thing to just become top dog.

[adrynalyne]

You're assuming that you can just drop in a Mac and replace what you have with minimum drama which simply isn't the case.

Not really.

 

As I mentioned before, most consumers upgrade due to need, not want of a new OS.  So, if they must upgrade, and Windows 8 is their choice, and they hate it...OS X is the logical answer.

If they don't choose OS X (and sales make that clear), then the answer must logically fall upon the lack of need to upgrade (vs. Windows 8 being the cause).

[LaP]

lol at making a separate line for consumer vs corporate pcs.

 

Why lol ???

 

Corporate and consumer are 2 very very different beasts.