107-year-old man killed in gunfight with SWAT team

[theyarecomingforyou]

I guess you didn't read the part where he was waving the gun at a family member too.

I did, but she left unharmed and wasn't involved in the situation beyond that. It was only people that approached the room that were in any danger.

[adrynalyne]

The family were out of the house,the only person in the house apart from SWAT was the gentleman in question.They had the option to contain the offender and wait till cooler heads prevailed.There was no urgency to remove him as the only reports of gunshots were towards the SWAT officers in or immediately around the building, its not like he was at the window firing into the crowd.

 

When do you make the assumption that it is now safe?

An hour later?

Two?

Three?

Two days later?

 

I think we can all agree that if you fire shots at an officer, you are not going to get a resolution without risk of death.  If you are willing to fire once, then you are willing to fire again.

[adrynalyne]

I did, but she left unharmed and wasn't involved in the situation beyond that. It was only people that approached the room that were in any danger.

Sure, until he thinks it is a cop coming in and shoots another family member.

 

The guy was shooting at people.  What did you expect?

[theyarecomingforyou]

Sure, until he thinks it is a cop coming in and shoots another family member.

What the hell are you talking about? After the confrontation with the granddaughter the area was contained by police, so there was no danger of anybody else accidentally getting involved.

[adrynalyne]

What the hell are you talking about? After the confrontation with the granddaughter the area was contained by police, so there was no danger of anybody else accidentally getting involved.

LOL.

 

Way to miss a point.  He shot through a damn door.  He didn't know what or who was on the other side.

[psionicinversion]

he was probably insane in the mind... if hes got, damnit cant think of it what old people get and dont know where they are or who people are etc. he was probably scared not knowing what the hell is going on. least he went out the quick way. id prefer go quick and painless than slow and painful - marriage anyone... boom had get that in there lol!

[adrynalyne]

he was probably insane in the mind... if hes got, damnit cant think of it what old people get and dont know where they are or who people are etc. he was probably scared not knowing what the hell is going on. least he went out the quick way. id prefer go quick and painless than slow and painful - marriage anyone... boom had get that in there lol!

Alzheimer's?

 

Or Dementia?

[psionicinversion]

prolly both at that age hahah but yah was originally thinking alzheimers

[AJerman]

But that's what you are asking for. The man was firing a gun and gas wasn't working. The only option left is either take him out or attempt to dog pile him while he continues shooting bullets at you. It is actually outside the job description. The police have no duty to protect and keep an individual alive. The only have the duty to protect society as a whole. That is what the Surpreme Court ruled. This man was firing bullets without regard for anyone's life and one stray bullet out the window and someone could die. By taking him out, they did their duty and probably the only thing they could do given the situation.

I tend to think that our SWAT teams are a little more highly trained than having two options, shoot to kill or dogpile.

 

I guess we would need a member of SWAT to post their employment agreement, but I bet that is not in the description.

Depends on how you word it, but putting your life on the line to help someone is exactly why being a police officer is an honorable and respected job. Is their job to sprint at a slightly crazy old man with a gun? No.

 

By both of your thought processes, our SWAT teams don't require much more training than playing a little Call of Duty on a video game and a pat on the ass. I tend to believe they have a lot more training than just tossing some tear gas in and when that doesn't work, storming the place and killing him. But you brought up a good point earlier, is it worth it for a 107 year old man? Whose choice is it whether it's worth it or not? At what age should we stop bothering to help people from what is obviously a case of dementia or something similar. I hear you when you say this guy only has a few more years to live vs the police officers who probably still have half their life ahead of them, but I'd hate to be the one who makes the call that his life isn't as important.

 

Obviously none of us were at the scene, so none of us know anything for sure, I just find it highly doubtful that a SWAT team couldn't take care of one 107 year old man and a handgun without killing him or putting themselves in very serious danger of being killed. Perhaps you guys are right and there was absolutely no other choice, but I can think up a bunch of different ideas, especially against a man with dwindling cognitive skills.

 

ILikeTobacco is right though. Heros today aren't the guy that successfully negotiated a hostage situation without anyone dying. There isn't much glory in successfully handling the situation properly, and the public much prefers for someone to die, or at least it makes a better news article. All part of the moral decay of our country.

[adrynalyne]

 

I tend to think that our SWAT teams are a little more highly trained than having two options, shoot to kill or dogpile.

 

Depends on how you word it, but putting your life on the line to help someone is exactly why being a police officer is an honorable and respected job. Is their job to sprint at a slightly crazy old man with a gun? No.

 

By both of your thought processes, our SWAT teams don't require much more training than playing a little Call of Duty on a video game and a pat on the ass. I tend to believe they have a lot more training than just tossing some tear gas in and when that doesn't work, storming the place and killing him. But you brought up a good point earlier, is it worth it for a 107 year old man? Whose choice is it whether it's worth it or not? At what age should we stop bothering to help people from what is obviously a case of dementia or something similar. I hear you when you say this guy only has a few more years to live vs the police officers who probably still have half their life ahead of them, but I'd hate to be the one who makes the call that his life isn't as important.

 

Obviously none of us were at the scene, so none of us know anything for sure, I just find it highly doubtful that a SWAT team couldn't take care of one 107 year old man and a handgun without killing him or putting themselves in very serious danger of being killed. Perhaps you guys are right and there was absolutely no other choice, but I can think up a bunch of different ideas, especially against a man with dwindling cognitive skills.

 

ILikeTobacco is right though. Heros today aren't the guy that successfully negotiated a hostage situation without anyone dying. There isn't much glory in successfully handling the situation properly, and the public much prefers for someone to die, or at least it makes a better news article. All part of the moral decay of our country.

 

Putting your life on the line to help someone is a little different than putting your life on the line to disarm someone firing at you.

 

Keep in mind he fired through a closed door at non-SWAT police officers before they were called in.  SWAT has to consider the safety of others besides themselves as well.

 

This was bound to end in tragedy, one way or another. 

[ILikeTobacco]

 

I tend to think that our SWAT teams are a little more highly trained than having two options, shoot to kill or dogpile.

 

Depends on how you word it, but putting your life on the line to help someone is exactly why being a police officer is an honorable and respected job. Is their job to sprint at a slightly crazy old man with a gun? No.

 

By both of your thought processes, our SWAT teams don't require much more training than playing a little Call of Duty on a video game and a pat on the ass. I tend to believe they have a lot more training than just tossing some tear gas in and when that doesn't work, storming the place and killing him. But you brought up a good point earlier, is it worth it for a 107 year old man? Whose choice is it whether it's worth it or not? At what age should we stop bothering to help people from what is obviously a case of dementia or something similar. I hear you when you say this guy only has a few more years to live vs the police officers who probably still have half their life ahead of them, but I'd hate to be the one who makes the call that his life isn't as important.

 

Obviously none of us were at the scene, so none of us know anything for sure, I just find it highly doubtful that a SWAT team couldn't take care of one 107 year old man and a handgun without killing him or putting themselves in very serious danger of being killed. Perhaps you guys are right and there was absolutely no other choice, but I can think up a bunch of different ideas, especially against a man with dwindling cognitive skills.

 

ILikeTobacco is right though. Heros today aren't the guy that successfully negotiated a hostage situation without anyone dying. There isn't much glory in successfully handling the situation properly, and the public much prefers for someone to die, or at least it makes a better news article. All part of the moral decay of our country.

 

They are more highly trained. That's why they used gas first. After gas there isn't many options. You don't tazor someone with their finger on the trigger since that would actually set the gun off more times than not. What else is there if gas and a tazor don't seem to be an option. Now that I think of it, a tazor would probably kill someone that old anyway.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Way to miss a point.  He shot through a damn door.  He didn't know what or who was on the other side.

I already acknowledged that earlier but we're talking about somebody who was clearly not in his right state of mind, as he didn't even recognise his own granddaughter. However, once the area was cordoned off he didn't pose any danger to the general public. Yet rather than wait for the situation to calm down the police decided to storm the building just three hours later, despite there being no hostages involved.

 

Unfortunately this incident is indicative of the aggressive style of policing that is standard in the US. The number of people killed each year by police is horrific. Here is the list of people killed by police in the US last year; here are the UK figures for comparison. There were 587 people killed by law enforcement officers in the US, compared to one in the UK. When you factor in the difference in population the number of policing killing is more than 110x higher than the UK and that figure isn't an anomaly - it holds true for most years. Put simply, police in the US are thugs. Each police killing in the UK usually results in a major enquiry with the distinct possibility of manslaughter or murder charges yet that rarely happens in the US.

 

This was bound to end in tragedy, one way or another. 

No, it really wasn't.

[ILikeTobacco]

I already acknowledged that earlier but we're talking about somebody who was clearly not in his right state of mind, as he didn't even recognise his own granddaughter. However, once the area was cordoned off he didn't pose any danger to the general public. Yet rather than wait for the situation to calm down the police decided to storm the building just three hours later, despite there being no hostages involved.

 

Unfortunately this incident is indicative of the aggressive style of policing that is standard in the US. The number of people killed each year by police is horrific. Here is the list of people killed by police in the US last year; here are the UK figures for comparison. There were 587 people killed by law enforcement officers in the US, compared to one in the UK. When you factor in the difference in population the number of policing killing is more than 110x higher than the UK and that figure isn't an anomaly - it holds true for most years. Put simply, police in the US are thugs. Each police killing in the UK usually results in a major enquiry with the distinct possibility of manslaughter or murder charges yet that rarely happens in the US.

 

 

No, it really wasn't.

Your comparison ignores the cultural and attitude difference. In the US, many would rather die than go to prison and elect suicide by police over prison. That alone accounts for most deaths by police. In the last 4 years, 193 died from tasers which skews the number further. Just because someone dies from police doing their job doesn't make the police thugs.

[adrynalyne]

I already acknowledged that earlier but we're talking about somebody who was clearly not in his right state of mind, as he didn't even recognise his own granddaughter. However, once the area was cordoned off he didn't pose any danger to the general public. Yet rather than wait for the situation to calm down the police decided to storm the building just three hours later, despite there being no hostages involved.

 

Unfortunately this incident is indicative of the aggressive style of policing that is standard in the US. The number of people killed each year by police is horrific. Here is the list of people killed by police in the US last year; here are the UK figures for comparison. There were 587 people killed by law enforcement officers in the US, compared to one in the UK. When you factor in the difference in population the number of policing killing is more than 110x higher than the UK and that figure isn't an anomaly - it holds true for most years. Put simply, police in the US are thugs. Each police killing in the UK usually results in a major enquiry with the distinct possibility of manslaughter or murder charges yet that rarely happens in the US.

 

 

No, it really wasn't.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

2010: 308,745,538 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom

According to the 2011 census, the total population of the United Kingdom is around 63,182,000

 

Yet, you try to compare them like they are the same size and will have the same amount of deaths by police officers.  In case you didn't notice, we have nearly 5x the population.

 

Our crime rate is considerably higher too, which leads to additional police-related fatalities.

 

You are ridiculous.

[The Evil Overlord]

All said and done I was actually impressed with the guy, not the whole incident, mind you.

But I couldn't figure out, why after assertaining it was one old man, did swat need to intervene....

[theyarecomingforyou]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

2010: 308,745,538 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom

According to the 2011 census, the total population of the United Kingdom is around 63,182,000

 

Yet, you try to compare them like they are the same size and will have the same amount of deaths by police officers.  In case you didn't notice, we have nearly 5x the population.

Read my comment again. I clearly factored that into my figures.

[adrynalyne]

All said and done I was actually impressed with the guy, not the whole incident, mind you.

But I couldn't figure out, why after assertaining it was one old man, did swat need to intervene....

Bullets do the same amount of damage regardless of the age of the hand that pulls the trigger.

[adrynalyne]

Read my comment again. I clearly factored that into my figures.

Clearly you did not, because you didn't figure in the considerably higher crime rate into your calculations.

 

Firing a gun at police officers is a crime, ya know.  One that usually gets a response in equally deadly force.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Clearly you did not, because you didn't figure in the considerably higher crime rate into your calculations.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that crime in the US is over 110 times higher than in the UK?  :rolleyes:

 

Policing in the US is completely out of control.

[adrynalyne]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that crime in the US is over 110 times higher than in the UK?  :rolleyes:

 

Policing in the US is completely out of control.

What a silly comment.

 

That isn't what I said at all. 

 

However, we have guns here.  It is a fact.

Criminals armed with guns will likely be killed by police.  That is a fact.

We have a lot more crime than the UK.  That is a fact.

 

We can also compare gun related crimes in the UK with here and see a huge difference. 

 

We have guns here...

That couldn't coincide with increased police-related deaths, now could it???

[The Evil Overlord]

Bullets do the same amount of damage regardless of the age of the hand that pulls the trigger.

true, but I still don't believe in my heart that it was handled as well as it could have been, given the light of all the bad press the police have been getting recently.

[adrynalyne]

true, but I still don't believe in my heart that it was handled as well as it could have been, given the light of all the bad press the police have been getting recently.

The problem here is that he fired through a closed door, which makes him a danger to everyone.  When someone is unpredictable like that, it is hard to find an ideal solution. 

 

They don't know how much ammo he had, or if he had additional weapons.  They just knew that he was willing to fire blindly in a door, which shows that he is willing to kill anyone on the other side.

 

Someone who shoots blindly, resists tear gas, and will not negotiate leaves few other choices.

[+Raze Subscriber²]

Any trained police or SWAT personnel in this thread?

 

Maybe suicide by law enforcement?

 

We may never know what set the old guy off. May he rest in peace.

 

I always hope that law enforcement does their best, but they get it wrong many times.  We seldom hear when they get it right though.  In most officer related shootings and deaths there are other investigations to see if proper procedures were followed and officers acted accordingly.

 

We can never know exactly what happened, except for the cold hard fact that a man is dead.

[The Evil Overlord]

Any trained police or SWAT personnel in this thread?

 

Maybe suicide by law enforcement?

 

We may never know what set the old guy off. May he rest in peace.

 

I always hope that law enforcement does their best, but they get it wrong many times.  We seldom hear when they get it right though.  In most officer related shootings and deaths there are other investigations to see if proper procedures were followed and officers acted accordingly.

 

We can never know exactly what happened, except for the cold hard fact that a man is dead.

I hear you bud, trouble is, when they are doing their job correctly, it doesn't sell as many papers

[Hum]

Any trained police or SWAT personnel in this thread?

 

Maybe suicide by law enforcement?

I hadn't thought of that.

 

But then, he had his own gun -- he could have taken his own life, quietly.