How on earth do these people get jobs?

[sathenzar]

So I gotta rant here for a second. This is something that has been bothering me for a bit. So, by no means am I the best programmer around. I know quite a bit of programming though and have been programming for about 13 years in web programming as well as in that time I moved to desktop software programming and mobile programming (really love C# at the moment). What blows my mind though is I constantly see people get interviewed and people that even have jobs that have no concept of how to do anything but because they have a degree they have that job or get seriously considered when they are absolutly clueless. How can you be a web programmer / graduate from school with a degree and not know anything outside of HTML? I constantly hear "Oh yeah I can make professional web sites" but when I ask them what languages they use for back end programming they just stare blankly at me (have no idea what ASP.NET is or PHP or any of those). They just use Dreamweaver. How the hell does using Dreamweaver make you a professional? It doesn't! How can you have a computer science degree of 2 years but not know where memory goes on a motherboard if it's shown as a diagram? How can you have a degree in software eng. if you don't know anything outside of basic assembly and how to write C++ hello world programs. It just blows my mind. What do these people do for these companies that make money? How can they do anything useful? I had to interview someone the other day for a tech position (to repair computers not to program anything) and they had no clue what anything was on a motherboard except the cpu, they thought the video card went where the memory went, they thought the memory went where the video card went, and they thought the hard drive sata ports went into the ram. This person had a 2 year computer science degree at a decent school. How is this stuff possible?

[MDboyz]

Hahaha I know what you feel.  Recently, because of the work load, I asked the manager for one more people on my team, they hired one guy as SQL developer to help me.  Then after working with him for one day, I found out that he only knows 'select * from table' ... lol ...

[adrynalyne]

This is why the (humorously insulting) 'FizzBuzz' test is a requisite in Software Developer interviews. It's really a shame how many people say they can program javascript because they've heard the word javascript before.

 

The absolute best programmers I know didn't learn it in University; they learned it by themselves at home (because they love it).

FizzBuzz is so simplistic though, I don't see how it can weed out anyone except the very worst who slept through class in their degree.

[tsupersonic]

Universities teach you how to think, specifically for a comp sci degree (4 years) you are not taught java or c++, those are merely the mediums used to teach you the priciples of programming. A real programmer uses languages as tools for the job. Some projects would be best written in c++, others java etc.

Exactly this. No one is taught everything they need to know about a particular field in college. You go to college to learn how to learn different skills. 

[+Fahim S. MVC]

FizzBuzz is so simplistic though, I don't see how it can weed out anyone except the very worst who slept through class in their degree.

 

Despite this, you'd be surprised how many people fail it.

[neufuse Veteran]

It goes both ways, I got a job interview while I had a good job, so figured eh go see what they offer doesn't really matter to me. Interviewer asked a lot of complex questions, easy to answer... they asked me if I had any questions, I asked them what their software development and source control methodology was.. got a blank stare back from the lead dev that was in on the interview... then got "well... we don't have one right now"... I seriously couldn't not laugh... I know it's not professional but seriously.... you have a multi million dollar project and you aren't using or even looked into source control or a specific design methodology... awesome...

[neufuse Veteran]

A computer science degree is not about learning which slot is used for X piece of hardware, it's about learning the theory behind how computers/programming languages work. Schools focus on 1-2 languages, so you understand the programming concepts which should be applicable to all languages.

 

I work with people who have no clue how to fix hardware, but know how to program. I have a CS degree and the only reason I know about hardware is because I like doing that in my spare time. You're hiring people with the wrong degree if you're hiring comp sci grads for tech support.

Wow, makes my CS degree feel like we went nuts learning... You started out with basic hardware design, moved into CPU design (ALU's, caching, memory design, etc) then you took an extensive math program from Calculus, Discrete math, statistical analysis, Logic... then you did languages (c++, MIPS assembly, IA32 assembly, low level, 4th generation languages) then you moved into design and engineering.. Software engineering, tiered architecture, all that fun stuff... after 4yrs of this we could write firmware's, design simple CPU's write our own compilers and linkers.... heck we even had to write our own languages when we designed compilers (simple languages, but still)

[Karl L.]

Wow, makes my CS degree feel like we went nuts learning... You started out with basic hardware design, moved into CPU design (ALU's, caching, memory design, etc) then you took an extensive math program from Calculus, Discrete math, statistical analysis, Logic... then you did languages (c++, MIPS assembly, IA32 assembly, low level, 4th generation languages) then you moved into design and engineering.. Software engineering, tiered architecture, all that fun stuff... after 4yrs of this we could write firmware's, design simple CPU's write our own compilers and linkers.... heck we even had to write our own languages when we designed compilers (simple languages, but still)

 

I just graduated with a computer engineering degree, so I think I can shed some light on this situation. Your explanation of your CS degree program describes about half of the focus of my degree; the other half was heavily invested in electrical engineering concepts (particularly low-power DC circuit analysis and design), IC design, and far more high-level math than I care for. From what I understand from my friends in CS, most computer science degrees do not delve that low-level anymore. CS majors start with C++ and work their way up. CE majors start with C++ and work their way down.

[Lant]

Wow, makes my CS degree feel like we went nuts learning... You started out with basic hardware design, moved into CPU design (ALU's, caching, memory design, etc) then you took an extensive math program from Calculus, Discrete math, statistical analysis, Logic... then you did languages (c++, MIPS assembly, IA32 assembly, low level, 4th generation languages) then you moved into design and engineering.. Software engineering, tiered architecture, all that fun stuff... after 4yrs of this we could write firmware's, design simple CPU's write our own compilers and linkers.... heck we even had to write our own languages when we designed compilers (simple languages, but still)

 

That sounds more like a Computing Systems / Engineering degree rather than computer science to me. Where is the theory surrounding NP and problem classes - especially proving hardness/completeness. What about relevant and applicable theories such as Game Theory. Things such as Turing Machines, automata, formal specification and verification, the completeness of first order logic. The differences between functional and imperative programming. Techniques such as machine learning and neural networks. What about being able to apply CS in terms of biology. (All things I covered on my course) Not belittling yours, it just interesting to note how different these courses with exactly the same names differ.

I would argue that doing such a degree should provide the foundation for the learning, but fully expect the student to do so much more while they are there. For example I started my degree knowing C++ and PHP, and left knowing 5 more languages, of which only two were formally taught. I think the issue is that most students are lazy they tend to do only what they have to and nothing more. They don't want to bother with trying just a bit harder and getting more out of the degree.

Anyway, on the hiring side of things. If HR sets up the interviews with people who the candidate would not end up working for (or the team doesn't spare a manager to attend the interview) then it would make sense that the wrong people tend to get hired for jobs. But then, on the other hand, I know a firm over here that just hired a bunch of grads who are all useless (according to my contact that works with them) and I know that they interview with the managers and technical members of the team.

 

[neufuse Veteran]

That sounds more like a Computing Systems / Engineering degree rather than computer science to me. Where is the theory surrounding NP and problem classes - especially proving hardness/completeness. What about relevant and applicable theories such as Game Theory. Things such as Turing Machines, automata, formal specification and verification, the completeness of first order logic. The differences between functional and imperative programming. Techniques such as machine learning and neural networks. What about being able to apply CS in terms of biology. (All things I covered on my course) Not belittling yours, it just interesting to note how different these courses with exactly the same names differ.

I would argue that doing such a degree should provide the foundation for the learning, but fully expect the student to do so much more while they are there. For example I started my degree knowing C++ and PHP, and left knowing 5 more languages, of which only two were formally taught. I think the issue is that most students are lazy they tend to do only what they have to and nothing more. They don't want to bother with trying just a bit harder and getting more out of the degree.

Anyway, on the hiring side of things. If HR sets up the interviews with people who the candidate would not end up working for (or the team doesn't spare a manager to attend the interview) then it would make sense that the wrong people tend to get hired for jobs. But then, on the other hand, I know a firm over here that just hired a bunch of grads who are all useless (according to my contact that works with them) and I know that they interview with the managers and technical members of the team.

 

Yeah, our program was more towards the engineering side of it, but it was a pretty intensive program. I think some schools are just dumbing the programs down to pump out grads. There was a lot more theory then I listed, I was just hitting at some of the main topics.

 

We had to know a good number of languages at graduation. By the time I was done we covered, C++, Java, Assembly, VB, LISP, COBOL, Perl, PL/C, SQL-92 and PL/SQL and had an extensive knowledge of DCL and JCL (we worked on VAX systems for a long time then they converted to an IBM system and went to JCL)... thing about languages, they are easy to pick up.... it's definitely the concepts that you need to know... if you don't know the concepts, no mater the language, you will struggle