Microsoft Admits That Third-Party Antivirus Is More Effective Than MSE


Recommended Posts

Well this seems to have gone round in circles a few times. Microsoft could easily make MSE nearer in detection rates to the other AV alternatives it`s just this would take a fair amount of resources. They would need a dedicated team scouring malware domains, testing, creating and releasing signatures on an hourly basis. Also people/automation working on better detection of malware families so specific sigs don`t need creating.

One thing to remember when talking about bloat, memory usage is only a small part of the story. Some AV`s will keep the majority of their sigs in memory if available (up to a certain amount) whereas others will have to access them from disc and we all know accessing something from memory is quicker! So just because your AV uses a miniscule amount of memory doesn`t mean it is light. Normally you`ll have to try it for yourself as different settings can also have a big impact, scanning on execution, reading, writing, etc, etc...

 

As has been said before the most important part of the whole equation sits right between your ears ;)

 

I do seem to have had to clean quite a lot of computers with MSE on lately, more so (it seems) than when it was first released. This may be due to the fact Defender is now included in 8/8.1 so the writers make sure it isn`t detected!

I'm talking about average users that use Windows not Linux users. :p

 

I know. I was teasing. I am still amazed that we need anti-virus in this day and time, regardless of the OS. I am sitting here at work on my Windows box now.  

That would be because people are scum bags. It's not a technical question.

 

If we want people to be able to do stuff with their computers, we have to deal with others being *******s.

I know. I was teasing. I am still amazed that we need anti-virus in this day and time, regardless of the OS. I am sitting here at work on my Windows box now.

Yeah I guess! It isn't really something that should be needed, but unfortunately it is due to virus writers and due to the fact that more than fifty percent of users don't take care when on the internet. :/

Yeah I guess! It isn't really something that should be needed, but unfortunately it is due to virus writers and due to the fact that more than fifty percent of users don't take care when on the internet. :/

 

I don't think it is needed. I'm of the opinion that a lot of what these anti-virus do is scam people into believing they need them. Also, people would rather have convenience over security. That said, Google makes Chrome OS so that it scans the system at startup and if any system file is not right then it gets replaced with the correct one. They all could do that.

That said, Google makes Chrome OS so that it scans the system at startup and if any system file is not right then it gets replaced with the correct one. They all could do that.

Interesting idea, but I see two flaws with that concept on a "full" desktop OS. One is the obvious, if malware takes that scanner out or tricks the scanner into thinking a file is good then it's rendered useless. For me the bigger problem would be performance though.. ChromeOS is basically a browser and is quite lightweight, so there wouldn't be that much to scan. Waiting on a complete system scan for a full blown desktop operating system is going to have a huge hit on startup time, regardless of which OS it is. I'd be willing to bet something that like would get disabled by the majority of users just because of the inconvenience of waiting for a few minutes for their system to boot versus a few seconds.

Interesting idea, but I see two flaws with that concept on a "full" desktop OS. One is the obvious, if malware takes that scanner out or tricks the scanner into thinking a file is good then it's rendered useless. For me the bigger problem would be performance though.. ChromeOS is basically a browser and is quite lightweight, so there wouldn't be that much to scan. Waiting on a complete system scan for a full blown desktop operating system is going to have a huge hit on startup time, regardless of which OS it is. I'd be willing to bet something that like would get disabled by the majority of users just because of the inconvenience of waiting for a few minutes for their system to boot versus a few seconds.

Windows 8 essentially does that with secure boot.

 

It checks that the files are signed etc >.< Has the same effect.

I don't think it is needed. I'm of the opinion that a lot of what these anti-virus do is scam people into believing they need them. Also, people would rather have convenience over security. That said, Google makes Chrome OS so that it scans the system at startup and if any system file is not right then it gets replaced with the correct one. They all could do that.

Suppose.

The only problem with that is since Windows Updates replace system files and it might mistakenly think the files replaced is bad, which would cause some problems. 

Windows 8 essentially does that with secure boot.

It's already been beaten, never mind that only somewhat helps systems that actually use it and have it enabled to begin with, namely people running into problems running a non-Windows OS.

Interesting idea, but I see two flaws with that concept on a "full" desktop OS. One is the obvious, if malware takes that scanner out or tricks the scanner into thinking a file is good then it's rendered useless. 

 

That's why the scanner doesn't need to be local but in the cloud, or at least somewhere that nothing can ever touch it.

 

 

For me the bigger problem would be performance though.. ChromeOS is basically a browser and is quite lightweight, so there wouldn't be that much to scan. Waiting on a complete system scan for a full blown desktop operating system is going to have a huge hit on startup time, regardless of which OS it is. I'd be willing to bet something that like would get disabled by the majority of users just because of the inconvenience of waiting for a few minutes for their system to boot versus a few seconds.

 

That's why I say people chose convenience over security. You only boot up once a day, so what if it takes a  few minutes?

That's why the scanner doesn't need to be local but in the cloud, or at least somewhere that nothing can ever touch it.

Brings its own overhead, never mind problems stemming from connectivity issues. If I take my laptop out of range from my network, how's that going to work? (Plus there's the usual "NSA backdoor!!" nonsense if somebody wants to go there, I don't but /shrug on here I'm not surprised by anything anymore, that's not directed at you.)

 

That's why I say people chose convenience over security. You only boot up once a day, so what if it takes a  few minutes?

Well that's purely personal preference of course. Me, I'll take my 15ish second boot time, and haven't had to deal with an oops as far as security goes in ~10 years, never mind it doesn't do jack for people who don't power down their system at all except maybe that once-per-month update. Out of about 15 desktop/server systems here only two ever actually get a full restart/powerdown as they don't have battery backups attached to them, barring a Windows/*Nix kernel update of course. Relying on protection that only runs once a month isn't terribly secure, especially for the malware that doesn't start up until after the system boots anyway, not all of them are rootkits.

I suppose admitting you've got a problem is the first step down the road to fixing that problem.

 

Maybe they'll devote a few more resources towards developing MSE now?

...., and haven't had to deal with an oops as far as security goes in ~10 years...

 

Same here. I rarely have any problems here at work on Windows. It's been years since we've gotten any viruses and we send and receive a ton of email every day and use a browser constantly. I've ran Windows 7 at home until recently and I've never had to install any anti-virus on it. That is what leads me to believe that a lot of this anti-virus scare is just that, a scare tactic.

If they couldn't write a secure OS, what makes you think they can plug the holes any better?

 

It's like asking an engineer why their building fell down. If they knew, they wouldn't have let it happen.

 

Also, I'm inclined to think there is some pressure to be had there >.>

Stop talking out of your ass. x86 systems by design allows any arbitrary code and deep system level access.

 

Can you write a virus for Windows RT?

 

MSE was one of the best antivirus when they put effort on it. Recently they are not focusing on it; that's why it has been going downhill. I think it is a bad decision on their part.

Did anyone really read the article? It mentions that the reason they've slipped on the tests, and why they're near the bottom is that they have shifted focus from the tests to real world threats and up and coming threats. Its says they spent a large amount of time and money on trying to pass those av tests to "look" good, while the software might actually not be that good in a real life situation.

 

So does make you think that some of the AV companies at the top may just actually be focusing on passing the tests, and dont give a crap about it working well in a normal day to day situation

I don't think MSFT ever intended MSE to replace, not even COMPETE with 3rd party AV. If we recall the dilemmas Microsoft was facing: bad publicity revolving around seemingly less secure OS than competitors and antitrust lawsuits.

 

MSE has been a very successful product for MSFT by reducing bad publicity and I think it has to stay marginal to save them from any further antitrust lawsuits.

Stop talking out of your ass. x86 systems by design allows any arbitrary code and deep system level access.

 

Can you write a virus for Windows RT?

 

MSE was one of the best antivirus when they put effort on it. Recently they are not focusing on it; that's why it has been going downhill. I think it is a bad decision on their part.

Yes you can you ignoramus ****wit.

 

You know how we know that? You can root the device, arbitrary code can then be executed.

 

More to the point, this has absolutely nothing to do with the instruction set the chip executes, otherwise Android would be malware free as well. Have I mentioned that there is Malware for ia86 chips also?

 

You are the worst kind of poster. You are simultaneously wrong and being an *******. Even better than that, you took something out of context to attack. My point was that there's a benefit to third parties being in control of the anti-malware work.

 

If Microsoft could have blocked it (or had thought to), they would have done it in their operating system. It's likely they will in future versions, but getting the people who wrote the OS to look for problems with the operating system, as I said, like asking an engineer why their building fell down. They wouldn't have built it that way on purpose.

 

Next time you want to take a swipe, at least be right.

 

  • 1 month later...

I'm not to concerned. In all the years I've been using computers, I've gotten 2 minor viruses which I've manually removed myself.

And I've been dealing with warez and such since 1995, and porn sites.

Although I in a porn sites aren't the culprits for viruses, many people think that's how you get them.

I feel very safe with MSE and Malwarebytes Pro, and my own brain. ;)

MSE/Defender is crap (and they still haven't fixed the bug that causes slowdowns in folders with a lot of EXE's after about 5 years), but it certainly beats having no antivirus at all, a lot of users are still plenty stupid and it's a good thing to have it in Windows out of the box. Of course I usually install Avast for anyone the moment they ask for my help but I can't help everyone :P

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Posts

    • Why you need to take back control of your synced passwords and how to go about doing that by Paul Hill Credit: Pixabay Last month, when Google decided to introduce daily and weekly caps for Gemini, it reignited an anxiety of mine, that you can’t really depend on service providers to maintain features forever, and it got me looking into free software (as in freedom) in other areas too. One app I quickly came across was KeePassXC on desktop and KeePassDX on Android as an alternative to password manager lock-in within the Chrome or Firefox ecosystems. I personally like to switch around with browsers, and using either password manager is inconvenient, so something like KeePassXC was interesting to me. The main issue with it now is syncing; I was not sure how to do that. After a bit of research, I came across Syncthing, a tool I was vaguely familiar with but had never used because it seemed complicated. However, I was completely wrong, and honestly, I think everyone should use it if they use multiple devices. It essentially lets you share folders peer to peer across all of your devices, no cloud services that you don’t control necessary! And it was fairly simple to set up, if not a bit clunky. Since setting it up, I’ve also started using Syncthing to back up other apps too, so don’t think it’s limited to just saving password databases. You can use it for pretty much anything you use Dropbox or Google Drive for. Before continuing to talk about those apps a bit more, let’s walk back a bit and talk about browser sync. Ever since the late 2000s and early 2010s, really, since we have been using smartphones, browser sync has been a necessity of life. I don’t know about you, but I have hundreds of passwords saved. For the most part, they’re all unique, so I don’t remember them and rely on software to manage them for me. Until recently, I’ve relied on password managers in Chrome and Firefox, but what I always found annoying was that it can be hard to transfer them between browsers. Sure, on Windows it is simple enough, but on Linux, exporting bookmarks has been temperamental. It works OK nowadays, but not too long ago, Chrome required you to enable exporting passwords in chrome://flags. The situation is even worse on mobile; there is no exporting or importing of passwords of any kind. You literally have to do it on a desktop, which is incredibly annoying in our mobile-first world. Sync also lets us take out bookmarks, history, tabs, and autofill data easily. To enable sync, it’s just a matter of signing into the browser once, and it handles the rest. It’s nice and easy. Obviously, all this has some issues, including those I’ve outlined above about it being hard to transfer data between browsers, but also things such as account suspension, lost account passwords, and other lock-in mechanisms, such as passkeys, being tied to a specific browser. On a sidenote, I have just removed all of my passkeys because they can make it harder to move browsers. I think the biggest threat to your synced passwords, especially if doing this with Google, is having your account suspended. I don’t ever expect mine to be suspended, but you do hear horror stories on Reddit where people lose access to their Google accounts. Imagine if you have hundreds of passwords, then suddenly lose access to them because Google froze your account, what would you do? So yes, it can be nice to use these syncing services for their convenience, but they also have risks. You may have seen me going on about free software quite a bit in my editorials. It’s essentially a concept championed by the Free Software Foundation. It’s software under particular licenses that grant you four freedoms: run the program for any purpose (0), study and change the source code (1), redistribute copies to others (2), and the freedom to distribute modified copies to others (3). For example, if there is an app I use and one day it gets abandoned by the developer, I can keep running it or even clone the software and continue developing it. Look at the myriad of cool services Google has run over the years before killing them. You can’t take the source code for those because they are proprietary, for the most part. Both KeePassXC and Syncthing are free software, so I get the freedoms listed above. In my use case where I’m syncing a database full of my passwords, I also get proper ownership over my data, there is no losing access to the database due to a frozen account, I can access the code of the tools I’m using, and I can get support from real people online if I run into issues, rather than having to consult a vague help page from an opaque company. With the KeePassXC password manager, you create a .kdbx file, which is what will be synced between devices. KeePassXC has cross-platform apps and also has browser extensions so that the browser can fetch passwords from the database once it is unlocked. Meanwhile, Syncthing is a peer-to-peer file sync tool where you can select folders to sync between your devices. Just pop files in the folders you choose, and then they will be available across your other devices whenever they come online. Syncthing is resilient as it works over both LAN and the internet and only ever sends content between your devices, never to a third-party server somewhere else. By combining these two pieces of software, you can essentially replicate the browser sync functionality. I have had a weird, conflicting issue where a new file is appearing, but it doesn’t seem to be impacting my main password database, which is updating between devices just fine. If you want to get a setup similar to what I have, you will need to go here to download KeePassXC for your computer. Once you have that, you will need to download your passwords from your web browser to a CSV file. In Chrome, you can type chrome://password-manager/settings into the URL bar, and you should see an option to download your passwords under Export Passwords. This will give you the CSV file you need for importing into KeePassXC. If you use a different browser, just use a search engine and type “browser-name export passwords” and muddle along. In KeePassXC, you’ll want to press Import File from the home screen, select the CSV file, and create a new database from it. On one of the screens of the wizard, there will be a Title field with a drop-down selected to none. Change this to Title and continue. You’ll select a name for the database, the encryption level (the defaults are fine), and then you will pick a password. I would choose four unrelated words that are easy for you to remember, as you’ll be typing them fairly often to access your passwords. When you have all your passwords in your new database, you will want to set up the browser extension so that your browser can fetch passwords from KeePassXC. Rather than explain how to do that here, refer to KeePassXC’s guide on how to set it up properly. Once you’ve got that set up, you want to install KeePassDX on Android. You can grab it on the F-Droid store and the Google Play Store. For iPhone users, there are other .kdbx-supporting apps, but I haven’t tried any of them, so have a look around and use what suits you. Once you have that done, you will want to install Syncthing on your computer and find a third-party app for your mobile device. On Android, I use an app called BasicSync; there are also options for iOS, but again, I’ve not tried these. Once you’ve got SyncThing, you’ll want to set it up and connect all of your devices together and share a folder between your gadgets. PCWorld has a good tutorial on setting up a synchronized file between your devices using SyncThing. Once you’ve set it up, congrats, you’ll never have to touch that stuff again except for adding or removing devices. I’ll be honest, I didn’t particularly like setting up Syncthing. It didn’t take me a massive amount of time, but I think I had to check online because I found it a bit confusing. That said, I’ve had it running for several weeks now and never need to touch the Syncthing settings, so that’s very nice. I also mentioned a conflicting file. I’m not sure why this is appearing, but the main .kdbx file seems to be updating and syncing just fine. What’s nice is that both KeePassXC and Syncthing are free software, so they won’t just vanish one day; you can take the code and fork the project or use a range of alternative implementations that others have made. It’s also nice that it works over LAN, so even if your ISP is having problems, your passwords will still sync. One area where you will want to be a bit more careful with this setup is if you only have one device. I am OK because I have a computer and two phones, all synced up. If you just have one device, you will probably want to store a backup of your .kdbx file somewhere else. Obviously, you’ll also want to remember your password really well, too. If you get locked out, it's game over. Overall, if you want to take back control of your computing from big tech, taking control of your passwords is an important part of this. You don’t need to immediately clear out your browser’s password manager; try running KeePassXC and the password manager concurrently for a while to see if you run into any problems. If you do try this out, let us know some other creative ways to use Syncthing. I haven’t really come up with a solution about what to do with my bookmarks, for example.
    • If the price was a dollar, someone would complain "Why isn't it free?" If it was free, someone would complain they weren't being paid to play it.
    • That lens of history will burn if you hold it at the right angle... Warn users too late: Shame, Microsoft! That extremely minor update to an obscure Control Panel widget required 2 years of warning. Warn users too early: Shame, Microsoft! We've got better things to do. Pipeline and process be damned, we'll just always be disappointed, eh?
    • Microsoft Paint used to be my favorite Windows app as a kid, and it's still pretty good by Usama Jawad I have been using Windows since the early 2000s, when I was around 10 years old or so. I vaguely remember playing around with Windows 98 and Windows 2000, but that may have been on school PCs which had old operating systems installed. My main OS on the home PC, and the one I recall spending most time with, was Windows XP. At that time, I used the home PC to create Word and PowerPoint documents for school, but a lot of the time, I simply used it to play games. My dad would bring game discs which we would try and install on the PC, sometimes unsuccessfully, and sometimes, we would rely on flash games in the browser, like Bubble Trouble on Miniclip. However, the problem with the latter approach was the internet speed. On a good day, our dial-up internet would offer us speeds of 56 kbps, but on most days, it was closer to 33 kbps. This did not facilitate online gaming as I would often have to wait minutes for a game to load or "draw" on the screen, and trying to download pirated games wasn't simple either. I remember getting tired of waiting for online games to load and just downloading simulator games from the Big Fish Games website instead, only to be disappointed after finding out that I was just being given access to trial versions of the title, and I needed to fork out money to pay for the full version. All of this is to say that it wasn't very easy to find entertainment options on the home PC when I was a kid, due to a number of reasons, mostly outside of my control. This situation pushed me towards a rather unconventional ally: Microsoft Paint. Whenever the internet wasn't working as good as I expected, I would simply spin up Paint and draw complete rubbish on the canvas. Of course, that wasn't always the intention, but it usually happened when I messed up drawing a straight line or something, and then I would give up on that particular piece and simply draw a random collection of objects. Microsoft Paint was extremely accessible and easy to use. Even if you weren't an artist, you could quickly understand the tools at your disposal and how to leverage them on a canvas. The absolute breadth on offer ensured that each painting was truly unique, as you could utilize various combinations of tools like the pencil, paint, spray paint, and more to truly personalize your creation. Since I wasn't particularly good at drawing both on digital screen or a physical screen, I remember that my main style of art would be to insert a bunch of randomly intersecting lines and then fill them with random colors through the paint can. I have trying to replicate that art style in the latest version of Paint below, and as you can see, it's truly Pablo Picasso-esque. The human imagination truly knows no bounds Microsoft Paint kept me occupied for hours and was my best friend when video games on the home PC were inaccessible for one reason or the other. There was no academic or professional reason for which I would need to use Paint, but I still loved using it in my personal time, even if what I created wasn't worth being shown to anyone. It was simply fun. Fast-forward to today, and the situation is mostly the same. Now that I am almost 29 years old, and I still have no reason to use Microsoft Paint in a professional capacity. In fact, I don't even use it in a personal capacity, except to dabble with it from time to time, just to see if core functionalities are still intact. And I'm happy to say that I think Microsoft Paint still offers the same accessibility and inviting experience that it did to me a couple of decades ago, even though its UX has been refreshed and it's been integrated with Copilot features. Interestingly, things could have been a lot different, had Microsoft had its way. Microsoft Paint was marked for deprecation with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update in 2017, and even began displaying a product retirement alert, urging customers to shift to Paint 3D instead. Fortunately, after consumer backlash, Microsoft reversed course on this decision, and Paint continues to be a native app inside Windows installations that can also be updated quite frequently through the Microsoft Store. Instead, Paint 3D ended up on the chopping block, which is for the better, I think. I have intermittently played around with Microsoft's refreshed Paint experience in the past few years, and I do think it has received worthwhile upgrades. the UI and the UX has been modernized while retaining core functionality, and the app is still fairly easy to use. It doesn't meet any of my use-cases, but I've never really had any use-cases ever, as described previously. Of course, the elephant in the room is the Copilot integration. Personally, I believe that this is one place where Copilot does make sense, environmental concerns aside. I know that a lot of creatives use AI to generate images, and while some may be using professional alternatives, Paint still offers a decent casual experience, with the power of Copilot. Of course, you do need to have a valid Microsoft 365 Copilot license and available credits to use it, but even if you don't, you still get the big Copilot button in the toolbar, unfortunately. All in all, I am glad that Microsoft Paint continues to be a native feature in Windows 11, and a piece of software that has evolved to meet modern needs without cutting off its own roots. It's just an iconic piece of Windows history that was an essential part of my childhood, and while I don't use it anymore, I'm just glad it is still there.
    • 2TB WD_Black SN7100 PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD drops to its lowest price in over three months by Fiza Ali Amazon is currently offering the 2TB WD_Black SN7100 internal solid-state drive at its lowest price in over three months, so you may want to check it out, if you have been considering a storage upgrade, before the deal dries up (purchase link is toward the end of the article). Featuring a PCIe Gen 4.0 interface and M.2 2280 form factor, the SN7100 promises to deliver sequential read speeds of up to 7,250MB/s and sequential write speeds reaching 6,900MB/s, offering as much as a 35% improvement in performance compared with the previous generation. It also achieves random read speeds of 1,000,000 IOPS and random write speeds of 1,400,000 IOPS. The drive uses Western Digital’s TLC 3D NAND technology for reliable performance and is further supported by a five-year limited warranty. It also offers strong endurance, rated at up to 1,200TBW, making it suitable for demanding workloads such as gaming, content creation, and high-speed recording. Moreover, its DRAM-less architecture claims to improve power efficiency (the SSD relies on system memory for caching via HMB), while the WD_Black Dashboard software enables users to monitor drive health, install firmware updates, and activate Game Mode for potentially better performance. Finally, it operates within an operating temperature range of 0°C to 85°C, and can withstand storage temperatures from -40°C to 85°C. 2TB WD_Black SN7100 PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD: $242.96 (Amazon US) Check this deal out if you want a 4TB option. Good to know This Amazon deal is U.S. specific, and not available in other regions unless specified. We only use first-party seller links (at the time of article publishing); ensure that you purchase from a first-party seller link only. Check out Today's Deals on Amazon | or our recent tech deals. Become a Prime member (for Students or SNAP) via Neowin Get Prime Access - Prime for half price (for qualifying Medicaid, EBT, SNAP) Subscribe to Prime Video, Audible Plus, Music Unlimited or Kindle Unlimited via Neowin As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
  • Recent Achievements

    • Week One Done
      Supreme Spray LV earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Month Later
      Genuinetonerink- Dubai earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Week One Done
      Genuinetonerink- Dubai earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Year In
      hhgygy earned a badge
      One Year In
    • Week One Done
      AMV earned a badge
      Week One Done
  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      514
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      163
    3. 3
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      87
    4. 4
      Steven P.
      74
    5. 5
      Michael Scrip
      73
  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!