Qualcomm Employee: Apple's 64-Bit A7 Chip 'Hit Us In The Gut'

[XerXis]

What is beneficial for security in ARM's A64 ISA? I know ARMv8 has crypto instructions but those are available in both the 32-bit and 64-bit variants.

 

Ah, you beat me to it ;)

[FloatingFatMan]

Nah, it is what sanctified said, Samsung manufactures their processors (well SoCs now). They used Cortex series chips for the 3 and 4 and standard samsung processors prior. They've never used qualcomm parts.

 

EDIT: looks like both the 5 and 5s use straight up apple designed processors, so they aren't licensed from anyone at all. The Cortex ones were licensed from ARM.

 

A7 is still an ARM processor, so they're paying a license to ARM.

[shifts]

I've not quite understood why there's Apple bashing in the thread to do something like 64 bit cpu's.  Can anyone really, when they deep down thing of it, think it was a ego / E-penis thing and not see any practical application to it?

 

i'll ignore the igorance about 64bit being only usefull for >4gb ram, despite gawd damn journalists who should know better.

 

It's a massive step forward and even Intel and Qualcomm have said it was on their roadmap but they didn't expect the need to come so soon.  Lets not forget the Arm cpu inside the 5s is heavily customised leaning more towards Apple have designed the chip themselves and not just bought an off the shelf part.

 

The amount of data registers alone make up theoretically any issues with 32 bit running on 64 bit along. I seem to recall way back in the past Apple designed their own motherboard so that the track lines were the shortest distance feasible from one component to the other.  Now that is overkill lol

 

On the flip side is that for NOW, right here and now it's potentially overkill to have an almost desktop class cpu in a phone but who knows what the future holds.  Many people said what's the point of internet on the phone etc etc.  Although not the same we live in a world where normally more speed or more cores = better on the PC and we;ve become accustomed to that benchmarking.  64 bit comes along with a faster cpu in general, even if the old cpu can beat it in some very specific tests, and yet it;s painted as a bad thing.

 

Apple gives out the hardware and then developers work their magic stuff on it.  So we'll see what the A7 is really capable of when developers get their heads around it I reckon

[The Norwegian Drone Pilot]

You do realize that 64-bit has more advantages than just memory capacity, right?...

It have yes, but is those other 64-bit advantages something that you can see working better and faster than it does on a 32-bit CPU?

 

The answer here is that you wont see ANY real life differences from using an iPhone 5S with 32-bit CPU to an iPhone 5s with a 64-bit CPU today. If the differences had been noticable, then i would agree it would be a good thing to have, but there isn't any speed improvements or any performance improvements right now from going from 32-bit to 64-bit CPU's on mobile phones.

 

The speed improvements you see from iPhone 5 to iPhone 5S is not because of the 64-bit CPU, but because the new A7 CPU chip is using a totally new architecture witch is faster than the A6 architecture that was in the iPhone 5.

 

The problem here is that you barely sees any speed imporovements from launching apps and loading things from iPhone 5 to iPhone 5S in alot of apps and games even when the A7 CPU is much faster than the A6 one.

 

So as for today, the 64-bit CPU gives very little or no benefits over 32-bit CPU's for the normal man who use the iPhones. The only thing that might be relevant is more security, but if that's all, then i don't really see all of the hyping and fuss about the 64-bit CPU in the new iPhones.

[AWilliams87]

What a ridiculous thing to say...  A measely little mobile processor is NOT the 64bit evangelist you think it is. Intel and AMD are already there and have been for years; Microsoft are the ones making it mainstream as their OS is the market driver.

I'm talking about in the mobile market.

[AWilliams87]

Well, in the defense of sane architecture, an ISA is mostly only as useful as the instructions you use or need. Throwing 64-bit instructions in is useless if you don't need the extended range provided by the numbers. The performance gains reported are most likely just the result of more registers being available and simply better scheduling as a result.

 

EDIT: anyone know if apple is bundling both 64-bit and 32-bit compiled codes in one executable like what is done for Osx (and should be done for windows...)?

Many of the instructions in x86-64 goes unused as well. 30% of the instructions were used 83% of the time, or something similar to that respect.

[Astra.Xtreme]

So as for today, the 64-bit CPU gives very little or no benefits over 32-bit CPU's for the normal man who use the iPhones. The only thing that might be relevant is more security, but if that's all, then i don't really see all of the hyping and fuss about the 64-bit CPU in the new iPhones.

Security actually is a very very big deal...  Especially since a lot of people do their banking and shopping on their mobile devices.

If security isn't ramped up sooner than later, more than just Android will have malware and virus problems.

There are A LOT of good reasons why everybody should make the transition, and performance is just a bonus.

[Beyond Godlike]

Lets face it.  Its the only 'new' thing apple really added to the ipad other than the standard lighter/thinner approach.  The screen is vastly inferior to the Nexus 7's/Android offerings, and in the long run the iPad air will just seem like another average incremental update. 

[AWilliams87]

Lets face it.  Its the only 'new' thing apple really added to the ipad other than the standard lighter/thinner approach.  The screen is vastly inferior to the Nexus 7's/Android offerings, and in the long run the iPad air will just seem like another average incremental update. 

Lmao. How is thee iPad air display "vastly inferior" to the Nexus 7? Because it has a lower pixel density lol? The iPad uses the new IGZO display, which came out this year and is more energy efficient than a typical LCD display. It also uses a patented chemical coating used to resist skin oil residue. The Nexus 7 merely uses the industry standard LCD displays.

 

Here. Let me help you: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/170970-igzo-display-tech-finally-makes-it-to-mass-market-ipad-air-now-high-res-laptops-and-desktops-next

[Astra.Xtreme]

Lmao. How is thee iPad air display "vastly inferior" to the Nexus 7? Because it has a lower pixel density lol? The iPad uses the new IGZO display, which came out this year and is more energy efficient than a typical LCD display. It also uses a patented chemical coating used to resist skin oil residue. The Nexus 7 merely uses the industry standard LCD displays.

 

Here. Let me help you: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/170970-igzo-display-tech-finally-makes-it-to-mass-market-ipad-air-now-high-res-laptops-and-desktops-next

Agreed.  I have both the Nexus 7 and the iPad, and even if you press your face against the screen, you'd never be able to tell which one has a higher pixel density.  People buy too much into the "higher must be better" mentality that Android loves to brainwash people with.

[The Norwegian Drone Pilot]

Security actually is a very very big deal...  Especially since a lot of people do their banking and shopping on their mobile devices.

If security isn't ramped up sooner than later, more than just Android will have malware and virus problems.

There are A LOT of good reasons why everybody should make the transition, and performance is just a bonus.

I know this, but is those security things with 64-bit CPU's something that makes any differences for the normal user today that it is a worty change?

 

I mean, how much more secure does anyone with a 64-bit CPU gets when it's about shooping and banking?

[+LogicalApex MVC]

I know this, but is those security things with 64-bit CPU's something that makes any differences for the normal user today that it is a worty change?

 

I mean, how much more secure does anyone with a 64-bit CPU gets when it's about shooping and banking?

Today users don't get any benefit from it (except possibly the latest iDevice users) since they don't have the chips in their devices...

 

Going forward, your question is silly. Obviously, the more secure the platform the better it is for EVERY application.

[The Norwegian Drone Pilot]

Today users don't get any benefit from it (except possibly the latest iDevice users) since they don't have the chips in their devices...

 

Going forward, your question is silly. Obviously, the more secure the platform the better it is for EVERY application.

I'm not saying it's not better to have better security. My question is if the security is significant better witch makes it worty to have or just some few % better witch makes it to a hype rather than usefull?

 

If the security is only 5-6% better than it is with a 32-bit CPU, then i don't see the need of getting a 64-bit CPU for smartphones alone just for that. It's an improvement that is so low over how it is normally that i don't think any users would be any more safe then they normally would be in 99.5% of the cases anyways.

[Rippleman]

i look forward to when the phone is our tower. In front of me at work is my monitor, keyboard and accessories. The same setup at home. When at work my phone plugs into a base unit and is the tower. When I leave work I unlpug my phone from the base unit and head home where I then plug it into my home base unit. 

[+LogicalApex MVC]

i look forward to when the phone is our tower. In front of me at work is my monitor, keyboard and accessories. The same setup at home. When at work my phone plugs into a base unit and is the tower. When I leave work I unlpug my phone from the base unit and head home where I then plug it into my home base unit. 

I'm not interested in this... This does seem like a natural evolution of this whole BYOD movement though :s.

 

I don't want work having access to my private data (so I want the devices separate). I also don't want to be responsible for buying the equipment I need for work.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

A7 is still an ARM processor, so they're paying a license to ARM.

 

They license the ISA from ARM (an architectural license). They do not license IP cores (i.e. the processor) from ARM. There is a large difference between the two. I was referring to the latter.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Many of the instructions in x86-64 goes unused as well. 30% of the instructions were used 83% of the time, or something similar to that respect.

 

Agreed and I'm still running a majority of 32-bit programs on my 64-bit processor since the majority of Windows software is 32-bit  :rofl:

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

I'm not saying it's not better to have better security. My question is if the security is significant better witch makes it worty to have or just some few % better witch makes it to a hype rather than usefull?

 

If the security is only 5-6% better than it is with a 32-bit CPU, then i don't see the need of getting a 64-bit CPU for smartphones alone just for that. It's an improvement that is so low over how it is normally that i don't think any users would be any more safe then they normally would be in 99.5% of the cases anyways.

 

There is no security advantage between an ARMv8 32-bit processor and an ARMv8 64-bit processor at the architectural level. Two people have separately asked for details on the security benefits people keep mentioning and so far we haven't gotten a response. The only feasible argument that can be made here is that it is possible to do better ALSR because of the extended address range. I've actually looked at the architecture and ARM's promotion slides for ARMv8 and there doesn't appear to be anything that indicates that there is a security advantage on the 64-bit front. What they've done is add crypto instructions to the Instruction set architecture (ISA); problem is, those exist in both the 32-bit and 64-bit ISAs variants so you can't make the argument that 64-bit == better security...

 

There are however slight performance benefits when using the 64-bit mode of the processor (most of the time anyway): http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review/4

[Richteralan]

Uh...where are you drawing that conclusion from?  The point is that the amount of memory doesn't matter.

Yes, you can use more than 3.5GB of memory with 64-bit, but that's only one of many advantages.

A major benefit is security.  

 

Educate yourself on why a 64-bit instruction set is very beneficial.  There's a lot of information out there.

I am well aware the benefits of x86-64 and/or the IA-64 architecture.

 

My question is purely on the benefits of ARM 64-bit (AArch64) over current ARMv7*. Please be specific, not some blanket sentence like "major benefit is security."

[Beyond Godlike]

Lmao. How is thee iPad air display "vastly inferior" to the Nexus 7? Because it has a lower pixel density lol? The iPad uses the new IGZO display, which came out this year and is more energy efficient than a typical LCD display. It also uses a patented chemical coating used to resist skin oil residue. The Nexus 7 merely uses the industry standard LCD displays.

 

Here. Let me help you: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/170970-igzo-display-tech-finally-makes-it-to-mass-market-ipad-air-now-high-res-laptops-and-desktops-next

 

LMAO..conveniently ignoring the fact that the Ipad air has horrible color gamut.  I think around 60-70%.  I notice notice the difference. 

[Xerxes]

The "Apple effect". Somebody introduces a new tech and everyone talks smack about it and say it'll fail a horrible death. Apple decides to take said tech and incorporate it into their portfolio, all of the sudden people are drooling for it and they (OEMs/customers) are all clamouring to get it. I know that is very generalised but should cover the phenomenon well enough :laugh: take with a grain of salt.

[notuptome2004]

The "Apple effect". Somebody introduces a new tech and everyone talks smack about it and say it'll fail a horrible death. Apple decides to take said tech and incorporate it into their portfolio, all of the sudden people are drooling for it and they (OEMs/customers) are all clamouring to get it. I know that is very generalised but should cover the phenomenon well enough :laugh: take with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

for good  example the iPod  Apple  Made the  MP3 player  what it  was and  by  that i mean they took what others  were doing and perfected  it. before the iPod hardly   noone  much cared or   remembers   the  MP3  players that were  out  because those players were just horrible  very un-user friendly or were  just huge  in size  and would  hold  maby an albums worth  of music while the original iPod could old around or slightly over 1000 songs  

 

 

So  it boils down to the  fact  Apple  made  the products successful because  they knew  how to Make those products  Great  

 

 

 

Before iPod 

[Beyond Godlike]

[snipped]

[snipped]

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/11/18/retina-ipad-minis-display-criticized-over-poor-color-gamut-and-accuracy/

 

Off an Apple fanboy site to.  I use some Apple Products, but i have no illusions like yourself about what the true value of them are. [snipped]

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

[snipped]

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/11/18/retina-ipad-minis-display-criticized-over-poor-color-gamut-and-accuracy/

 

Off an Apple fanboy site to.  I use some Apple Products, but i have no illusions like yourself about what the true value of them are. [snipped]

 

Um, that link is for the iPad Mini, it appeared to me that you guys were talking about the iPad Air so your evidence is neither here nor there (read as: you were talking about the Air). Can you provide evidence that the iPad Air has bad color gamut, bad pixel density, and no new features? Also, that link doesn't address your the claim of poor pixel density even on the mini...

 

Disclaimer: I have never owned any apple products.

[psionicinversion]

another apple android smashing debate. Think there is more to 64bit than just the 4GB ram bit and better speed when doing certain things, playing lemonade tycoon or opening and e-mail app isnt going to be one of them. Although many people have said apple let themselves down by only keeping with 1GB ram with 512MB useable by non system apps cus everything takes twice the address space so probably limited themselves and may get worse performance doing certain things but hey the next iphone has to have something to sell... 2GB ram.

 

Think the 64bit computing for the mobile/finding its way into wearable tech will pay off in 5 years when things need the processing speed of it to do demanding stuff quick in our constantly "connected" world