Thoughts: Windows 8.1 Update 1 looks worse than ever before...

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The taskbar is probably set to auto-hide by default (and pop-up when mouse cursor is at bottom of screen). Microsoft know what good design is - trust me on that. Love the taskbar theme.

[chrisj1968]

They want people to use Modern apps (aka Windows Store apps), because they want people to buy software and in-app purchases from the Windows Store. I assume they thought "Modern" would catch on the same way iOS and the App Store did for Apple. It didn't, so now they're trying to cater to Desktop favouring users in the hopes they'll use the Store.

 

Hmm.. I never thought of that. So they hope putting the modern UI on the desktop might garner it favor with desktop users? I don't think this will go over too well in the big picture. If MSFT would have a feature to shut it down should I not find it useful.. that would be impressive.

[+virtorio MVC]

How about the option to run desktop programs full-screen in Modern, and if you need it windowed it drops into the desktop? I'd love to have the option to run traditional programs in Modern, but there are some - messenger apps for instance - for which it simply wouldn't work. Just like a lot of the Modern apps will not look or work right in windows. 

 

I say give us the option for traditional programs in Modern and let us turn it on/off as it suits us. I don't need Modern apps on the desktop, but I do need this!

Out of interest, what advantages would that bring over just maximising the window on the Desktop? What about all the programs that support drag and drop from other programs?

[DConnell Member]

Out of interest, what advantages would that bring over just maximising the window on the Desktop? What about all the programs that support drag and drop from other programs?

 

I normally do Ctrl-C - Shift-Ins rather than drag & drop.

 

I'm just not a fan of feeling like I'm working in a VM, which is what the desktop in 8 feels like to me. I'd rather use the primary Windows 8 environment when I can.

[+virtorio MVC]

While I agree with your first point, the second one, that it hasn't caught on, I don't agree with. While not compatible to the iOS and Android stores it's not exactly the same situation, MS right now has two different stores while the others don't. That's not going to be the case soon, the ability to run the same apps on phone and tablet/desktop will be a big help, also having them windowed later will also help more.

Apple have the App Store for iOS and the Mac App Store for OSX.

I'm not seeing the advantage of using an app designed to work on a phone and PC. It's either going to result in a lot of apps with some weird UI compromises, or there being two versions of the same app in the Store, not to mention games, where you want lower resolution textures on a phone and high resolution textures on the PC.

[Active.]

I just realized with the taskbar sliding up and the window controls sliding down, and metro apps appearing on the taskbar, Metro apps in 8.1 Update 1 are basically almost exactly like full screen applications in OSX.

They just need to complete the picture by allowing single applications to adapt their UI based on whether they are in windowed (Desktop) or full-screen (Modern) mode, then let the user toggle between the two modes. So that instead of two completely separate Internet Explorers (or calculators, media players, control panels, sound recorders, picture viewers etc.),  each with a UI that is wildly different from its counterpart, you'd just have a single Internet Explorer running in either full-screen or windowed mode. 

[heatlesssun]

They just need to complete the picture by allowing single applications to adapt their UI based on whether they are in windowed (Desktop) or full-screen (Modern) mode, then let the user toggle between the two modes. So that instead of two completely separate Internet Explorers (or calculators, media players, control panels, sound recorders, picture viewers etc.),  each with a UI that is wildly different from its counterpart, you'd just have a single Internet Explorer running in either full-screen or windowed mode. 

 

But we have that today with Windows, multiple apps that do the same thing. How many browsers to a lot of techies have on their PCs now? Heck I have several different modern calculators because each one does something differently and I choose the one I want to use given the task at hand.

[George P Global Moderator]

Apple have the App Store for iOS and the Mac App Store for OSX.

I'm not seeing the advantage of using an app designed to work on a phone and PC. It's either going to result in a lot of apps with some weird UI compromises, or there being two versions of the same app in the Store, not to mention games, where you want lower resolution textures on a phone and high resolution textures on the PC.

A few things, the mac store is worse off, by a large amount compared to the Windows store. The fact you can have a app run on different device types either with touch or mouse is an advantage. The core of store apps allows for their UIs to be dynamic and scale, running on a 4" screen or a 20" screen should be no issue, winrt is way better at scaling than old win32 apps are. Even more than that it doesn't take much for the store to download and install a version of a app or a game that's better suited for phone or PC. All it takes is developers it make low res and high res vector graphics in two different installers and let the store give you the version needed, users don't notice anything.

[PGHammer]

The comments on the Verge article are no better. Thank God I'm not alone on this one.

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#21445846

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214400987

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214405681

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214406845

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214406937

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214457735

 

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214417853

 

Also, this comment FTW --> http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/7/5390024/windows-8-1-update-1-boot-to-desktop-ui-changes#214457773

 

This update is going to be nothing more than a clusterfrak for millions of users. The new Windows team really needs to step back, delay this release, and honest to gods think about what it is they are doing.

Dot, the complaints that actually brought on this series of changes are an insistance on modal approaches to a multimodal UI/UX.

As much as they say that they don't insist on the same with Android and iOS, how many folks use keyboard docks with tablets?

 

If you do use a keyboard dock with your tablet (and especially if said docked keyboard has no add-ons itself, such as extra batteries, port replication, etc.), you are still thinking modally.  How often do you use touch with the keyboard dock?  Of you aren't, that is another example of modal thinking.

 

Apparently, to most users (note that I haven't differentiated between the various OSes), a multimodal OS is the same as a modeless OS.  In other words, pick ONE mode and stick with it.

[i_was_here]

But we have that today with Windows, multiple apps that do the same thing. How many browsers to a lot of techies have on their PCs now? Heck I have several different modern calculators because each one does something differently and I choose the one I want to use given the task at hand.

Except that the issue is having different apps for each environment. IE for desktop vs IE for modern UI.

[Kyang]

Apple have the App Store for iOS and the Mac App Store for OSX.

I'm not seeing the advantage of using an app designed to work on a phone and PC. It's either going to result in a lot of apps with some weird UI compromises, or there being two versions of the same app in the Store, not to mention games, where you want lower resolution textures on a phone and high resolution textures on the PC.

 

The Bing apps on Windows Phone and on the desktop are a pretty good example of how it would work.  They're more similar than different, and one advantage to me is consistency.  They just need to demonstrate this kind of consistency in more "complex" apps to help people "get it".  Another reason why I'm awaiting the Metro Office apps.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

I'm just not a fan of feeling like I'm working in a VM, which is what the desktop in 8 feels like to me. I'd rather use the primary Windows 8 environment when I can.

I'm rather confused by this statement about working in a VM. Compositing Window Managers are the primary UI in all major and modern general purpose OSes so why does using one feel like a VM?

[Active.]

But we have that today with Windows, multiple apps that do the same thing. How many browsers to a lot of techies have on their PCs now? Heck I have several different modern calculators because each one does something differently and I choose the one I want to use given the task at hand.

 

It's great to have options. But if you want to use some of the Metro-style apps as part of the windowed environment, you can't (disregarding hacks like ModernMix). You need to switch to an entirely different app (that may or may not be called the same) written using ancient APIs. Something like Internet Explorer's "view in the Desktop" option is sort of ridiculous to use. I'm not going to constantly switch between a Desktop browser and a Metro browser only based on whether I want something to fill the whole screen or look at it in a window. In that case I'd rather remain in one of the environments. And it is probably not going to be Tileworld which is the more restrictive of the two.

[heatlesssun]

It's great to have options. But if you want to use some of the Metro-style apps as part of the windowed environment, you can't (disregarding hacks like ModernMix). You need to switch to an entirely different app (that may or may not be called the same) written using ancient APIs. Something like Internet Explorer's "view in the Desktop" option is sort of ridiculous to use. I'm not going to constantly switch between a Desktop browser and a Metro browser only based on whether I want something to fill the whole screen or look at it in a window. In that case I'd rather remain in one of the environments. And it is probably not going to be Tileworld which is the more restrictive of the two.

 

But it will depend on the task at hand. Most people probably already browse full screen most of the time anyway, and the modern browser can have certain power efficiencies and is inherently more secure because it doesn't allow the use of add-ins.

[Dot Matrix]

It's great to have options. But if you want to use some of the Metro-style apps as part of the windowed environment, you can't (disregarding hacks like ModernMix). You need to switch to an entirely different app (that may or may not be called the same) written using ancient APIs.

Not true at all. You can snap the app to the side of the screen next to the desktop.

[Active.]

Not true at all. You can snap the app to the side of the screen next to the desktop.

 

That's not a windowed environment. That's just tiling

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Not true at all. You can snap the app to the side of the screen next to the desktop.

It doesn't really work well in practice for many apps because the UI too large to display anything in useful manner when pinned like that. For example, metroradio (which is what I use to play music from Pandora).

 

EDIT: in your defense, this isn't fixable by adding Windows into the mix. Basically, throwing a Modern App into a Window isn't going to suddenly make this work better.

[gohpep]

Just tested this. It seems like the menu bar comes before the taskbar, so you have to hold it there longer to summon the taskbar.

What happens if I have my taskbar at the top of the screen and not at the bottom? Then when I move my mouse at the top of the screen, the taskbar AND the titlebar appears too? So one of them will be unusable then because of the overlap...

 

(note: I actually have the taskbar at the right side, just wondering...)

[DConnell Member]

I'm rather confused by this statement about working in a VM. Compositing Window Managers are the primary UI in all major and modern general purpose OSes so why does using one feel like a VM?

 

In Windows 8 the primary UI is Modern, not the desktop. Running in desktop mode is IMO very similar to running an OS in Virtualbox, only more integrated. I'd prefer to have the classic apps more integrated into the primary UI, like how you could run DOS programs in a window in addition to fullscreen back in the 3.x and 9.x and XP days.

 

As it is, it feels like the classic programs are relegated to a corner of WIndows 8. I'd like them more integrated into the whole.

[gohpep]

It doesn't show the taskbar all the time, you can just summon it, just like if you have the taskbar set to auto hide on the desktop.

Jesus. WTF is MSFT actually thinking here? :crazy:

[Dot Matrix]

That's not a windowed environment. That's just tiling

It's still windowed. Just because it doesn't fly around the desktop doesn't mean it's not functional. I drag apps back and forth constantly, and find it's better than digging around the taskbar.

It doesn't show the taskbar all the time, you can just summon it, just like if you have the taskbar set to auto hide on the desktop.

Here's a better thought. How about it not show at all? It's bad design, no matter how you look at it.

[Knife Party]

i think having the taskbar pop up is a bit problematic. I agree, so far the most suitable solution is the use the recent app switch.

[Kyang]

Just tested this. It seems like the menu bar comes before the taskbar, so you have to hold it there longer to summon the taskbar.

 

How does the whole process of invoking the the app bar in the Email app, or the scroll bar in the Pictures app work now?  I read that the user has to drag the mouse down a bit once hitting the bottom to get the taskbar, but what's the tolerance there?  Is it still easy to accidentally invoke the taskbar even if the user just wants to use the app bar?

 

Also, can a mouse user still invoke the app bar on the Start screen?  I mean the one with the "customize" button.

[+virtorio MVC]

The Bing apps on Windows Phone and on the desktop are a pretty good example of how it would work.  They're more similar than different, and one advantage to me is consistency.  They just need to demonstrate this kind of consistency in more "complex" apps to help people "get it".  Another reason why I'm awaiting the Metro Office apps.

That is my point. I've developed several apps that run on phones and on the PC. It's easy to share UI when the app is simple, but as soon as it gets complicated it's detrimental to at least one platform when developing the UI to run on both. It's better to split it off and focus development so it works best for a particular platform. That's at least what I've found.

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

In Windows 8 the primary UI is Modern, not the desktop. Running in desktop mode is IMO very similar to running an OS in Virtualbox, only more integrated. I'd prefer to have the classic apps more integrated into the primary UI, like how you could run DOS programs in a window in addition to fullscreen back in the 3.x and 9.x and XP days.

 

As it is, it feels like the classic programs are relegated to a corner of WIndows 8. I'd like them more integrated into the whole.

Fairly sure this has been pointed out Neowin before (with links to Microsoft stating this), but the Modern UI was not meant as replacement for Compositing Window Manager. That is to say, the Modern UI (as is) is not meant to be the primary UI for all tasking.

 

After thinking about it, I understand where this VM statement is coming from. Basically, the modern task switcher shows the desktop as an entry so it's similar to having a VM icon on a regular taskbar. As is, since you are switching between two disjoint environments one is going to seem non-native. In my own usage, I'm on the desktop the majority of the time, so I see the Modern Applications as non-native additional environment to work with.