directx 12 DirectX 12 Coming to Xbox One

[theyarecomingforyou]

The fact remains a vast portion of the people who play on PC don't have cutting edge hardware, often only adequate. Devs are going to try and make sure these people with average PC's can run their game. Whats the point pouring all that money into making the shiniest game in the World if only 12 people can run it?

64-bit processors and operating systems aren't "cutting edge", nor are systems with more than 4GB of RAM; yet only recently have we seen games starting to become 64-bit exclusive, coinciding with the release of the next-gen consoles. More than 50% of PCs are DX11 yet too few developers are taking advantage of it. The problem all too often is that publishers don't treat the PC with respect or give it the funding it deserves. Fortunately there are plenty that do, with games like Far Cry 3, Tomb Raider, Metro: Last Light, Bioshock Infinite, GRID2, etc.

 

The more important thing to consider is that consoles benefit directly from the advancements in PC hardware, which is why both the PS4 and XB1 use relatively standard PC hardware. In fact Microsoft's decision to use ESRAM is actually one of the factors in the performance issues, as it is non-standard. That's why I don't want to see the DirectX specification watered down to give Microsoft a short-term console advantage now at the expense of future hardware (both PC and console).

[Crisp]

Doesn't Xbox need large tiles for Kinect gestures? :s

 

I swear you people are just trying to find petty problems out of nothing.

[McKay]

Source? Posted numerous times here. Feel free to check out the resolution game thread. You didn't check very hard if you think they are in the minority.

 

PS4 have large and small icons. Mostly large though. X1 have large and small as well.

 

You mean this one? No the majority are not 1080.

 

[McKay]

64-bit processors and operating systems aren't "cutting edge", nor are systems with more than 4GB of RAM; yet only recently have we seen games starting to become 64-bit exclusive, coinciding with the release of the next-gen consoles. More than 50% of PCs are DX11 yet too few developers are taking advantage of it. The problem all too often is that publishers don't treat the PC with respect or give it the funding it deserves. Fortunately there are plenty that do, with games like Far Cry 3, Tomb Raider, Metro: Last Light, Bioshock Infinite, GRID2, etc.

 

The more important thing to consider is that consoles benefit directly from the advancements in PC hardware, which is why both the PS4 and XB1 use relatively standard PC hardware. In fact Microsoft's decision to use ESRAM is actually one of the factors in the performance issues, as it is non-standard. That's why I don't want to see the DirectX specification watered down to give Microsoft a short-term console advantage now at the expense of future hardware (both PC and console).

 

A Large % of people may be 64-bit. But going off Steam, over 50% of people are on 4GB of RAM or less. So consoles being 32-bit isn't a limitation in that regard for game engines, considering especially the OS needs some of that RAM too. You could just as easily blame the high % of Windows XP users for slowing down DX11 adoption. It's still the minority of games that have dropped XP support entirely. Plus the vast majority of XP systems are 32-bit.

 

XP dumps most of the burdens you mention onto PC gaming too. Minus Graphics Cards etc. Consoles share these issues but it's always people saying "Consoles are holding PC gaming back" but you never hear "XP is holding PC gaming back" if 64-bit and 4GB of RAM is your concern.

[George P Global Moderator]

I don't think anyone should talk about what can or can't happen when you don't know jack about what DX12 can do, when MS started work on it and if they planned it with the XB1 in mind or not from day one.     Countering the DX12 XB1 argument with "well the PS4 is already better and can get better with updating OpenGL too!", hurray?   What does this change if the target for both is the same fixed 1080p@60fps and nothing more?  We're talking about a static performance goal, not a moving target like with the PC, if both versions of a game hit the same spot and look the same then what does it matter if the XB1 manages to do it with some DX12 update or if the PS4 has a updated version of OpenGL?  

 

Some of you are fixed into looking at this like it's the PC race, when games have a ceiling that they're not going to go over anything performance wise you can gain is moot.   Now developers could turn around and use the extra for more fancy effects but guess what, since this argument is comparing multiplatform games anyways, they won't bother to do that either.   That leaves exclusives, and when we talk about exclusives then it also doesn't matter because you can't compare the game on the others hardware anyways.

 

This school yard back and forth is pointless till GDC comes and we actually have a sense of what is going to happen, till then all I see is gross speculation and opinions masked as technical know how.

[Hedon]

You mean this one? No the majority are not 1080.

 

TIOseKS.png

Nope. That one is missing half the games.

[rr_dRock]

You mean this one? No the majority are not 1080.

 

TIOseKS.png

Not a majority, but did you notice on a list of 22 games, 11 of them are 1080p? So, at least half, if not a majority. (which means, the majority aren't not 1080, and the majority aren't 1080.... fuuuun!) (Do I care about FPS above 25? Not at all.)

[firey]

I don't think anyone should talk about what can or can't happen when you don't know jack about what DX12 can do, when MS started work on it and if they planned it with the XB1 in mind or not from day one.     Countering the DX12 XB1 argument with "well the PS4 is already better and can get better with updating OpenGL too!", hurray?   What does this change if the target for both is the same fixed 1080p@60fps and nothing more?  We're talking about a static performance goal, not a moving target like with the PC, if both versions of a game hit the same spot and look the same then what does it matter if the XB1 manages to do it with some DX12 update or if the PS4 has a updated version of OpenGL?  

 

Some of you are fixed into looking at this like it's the PC race, when games have a ceiling that they're not going to go over anything performance wise you can gain is moot.   Now developers could turn around and use the extra for more fancy effects but guess what, since this argument is comparing multiplatform games anyways, they won't bother to do that either.   That leaves exclusives, and when we talk about exclusives then it also doesn't matter because you can't compare the game on the others hardware anyways.

 

This school yard back and forth is pointless till GDC comes and we actually have a sense of what is going to happen, till then all I see is gross speculation and opinions masked as technical know how.

But why cap it at 1080/60 if the console can do better?  Right now as it stands.. the PS4 is at a point where it can do 1080/60 more or less reliably.  xbox on the other hand is having trouble.  Now that could be hardware, software, whatever.  But if DX gets say a 25% boost to get it to the point where it is doing 1080/60 reliably.. and GL gets a 25% boost allowing it do do higher than that.. I don't see why it can't strive for better than 1080/60.

Nope. That one is missing half the games.

So you know of another 22 games with detailed specs already out? Please share.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I don't think anyone should talk about what can or can't happen when you don't know jack about what DX12 can do, when MS started work on it and if they planned it with the XB1 in mind or not from day one.     Countering the DX12 XB1 argument with "well the PS4 is already better and can get better with updating OpenGL too!", hurray?   What does this change if the target for both is the same fixed 1080p@60fps and nothing more?

The framerate and resolution aren't the only factors in image quality. You have draw distance, texture quality, anti-aliasing, polygon counts, etc. The point being that even if Microsoft address the substantial performance issues currently afflicting the XB1 it won't suddenly level the playing field. Also, the performance difference is likely to become a factor further into the lifecycle of the consoles when games are pushing the hardware to the max. Don't forget that it was severals years into the lifecycle of the X360 and PS3 that games started to drop the resolution to maintain performance with high profile games like GTAIV and Halo 3.

 

It's great that Microsoft is looking to bring DX12 to the XB1 and improve performance. What's concerning is the impact that will have on GPU development, which is primarily based around PC.

[Houtei]

My opinion has always been that while ps4 has the hardware advantage xbox will have the software advantage.  I am not saying dx12 is going to make xbox leap ahead or anything but its only going to help.   I mean its highly likely that the gpu in the xbox was developed with dx12 in mind since it had to have been in the works before now.  I have always felt the xbox was not suppose to release till this year and released early because of ps4 and so the software side was behind where it should be with alot of features not there with things like dx12 not ready.  Its been shown though software can make a huge difference.  Just look at the pc and simple driver updates and how much affect it can have on performance.   Yes ps4 can make software upgrades too and will but its easy to see that xbox will have the advantage.  Just look at how many change and how much better the 360 got over time compares to the ps3.

[George P Global Moderator]

The framerate and resolution aren't the only factors in image quality. You have draw distance, texture quality, anti-aliasing, polygon counts, etc. The point being that even if Microsoft address the substantial performance issues currently afflicting the XB1 it won't suddenly level the playing field. Also, the performance difference is likely to become a factor further into the lifecycle of the consoles when games are pushing the hardware to the max. Don't forget that it was severals years into the lifecycle of the X360 and PS3 that games started to drop the resolution to maintain performance with high profile games like GTAIV and Halo 3.

 

It's great that Microsoft is looking to bring DX12 to the XB1 and improve performance. What's concerning is the impact that will have on GPU development, which is primarily based around PC.

 

Yes, there's more than the res and fps, all those things you've just listed, when a developer is coding a multiplatform game, is going to be the same between the two or have minor differences.  They're not going to drastically change one over the other, so now we have a lower resolution or a lower frame rate as the difference.  Once those are compensated for, as I've said repeatedly, the target for performance is fixed, image quality targets are set, if the developers can hit that same target for both at the same res and same fps then even if the PS4 can go a bit farther with it's better hardware it won't matter, they're not going to add more on top of the PS4 version, they never have, even when looking at PC versions of games, as we've seen, we're getting the same old ports.

 

The only time what you keep pointing to will show a difference, years from now, is exclusives and when we're talking exclusives it's not even worth the argument because you can't even compare it to a version on different hardware. 

[Hedon]

Not a majority, but did you notice on a list of 22 games, 11 of them are 1080p? So, at least half, if not a majority. (which means, the majority aren't not 1080, and the majority aren't 1080.... fuuuun!) (Do I care about FPS above 25? Not at all.)

 

Oh, it's a majority. I have a feeling people are just burying their heads, or have fuzzy math....

 

720p - Battlefield 4

720p - Call of Duty Ghosts

720p - Dead Rising

720p - Killer Instinct

720p - Metal Gear Solid V Ground Zeroes

720p - Witcher 3

 

792p - Titanfall Beta

 

900p - Assassin's Creed 4

900p - Ryse

900p - Thief

 

960p - Watchdogs

 

1080p - Madden 25

1080p - Crimson Dragon

1080p - Max The Curse of Brotherhood

1080p - FIFA 14

1080p - Forza 5

1080p - NBA 2K14

1080p - Dying Light

1080p - EA UFC

1080p - Kinect Sports Rivals

1080p - Halo 5

1080p - Murdered Soul Suspect

1080p - Need for Speed Rivals

1080p - Skylanders Swapforce

1080p - Wolfenstein

1080p - Powerstar Golf

1080p - NBA Live

1080p - Lego Marvel Superheroes

1080p - Alien Isolation

1080p - Project Spark

1080p - zoo Tycoon

1080p - Halo Spartan Assault

1080p - Lococycle

1080p - Lego Movie Video Game

1080p - Strider

[Houtei]

 

Oh, it's a majority. I have a feeling people are just burying their heads, or have fuzzy math....

 

 

 I know its amazing what they choose not to see.  Also watchdogs is 960p not 900 that you have on your list

[George P Global Moderator]

 I know its amazing what they choose not to see.  Also watchdogs is 960p not 900 that you have on your list

 

When did they say the Watch Dogs numbers?

[rr_dRock]

 

Oh, it's a majority. I have a feeling people are just burying their heads, or have fuzzy math....

 

720p - Battlefield 4

720p - Call of Duty Ghosts

720p - Dead Rising

720p - Killer Instinct

720p - Metal Gear Solid V Ground Zeroes

720p - Witcher 3

 

792p - Titanfall Beta

 

900p - Assassin's Creed 4

900p - Ryse

900p - Thief

900p - Watchdogs

 

1080p - Madden 25

1080p - Crimson Dragon

1080p - Max The Curse of Brotherhood

1080p - FIFA 14

1080p - Forza 5

1080p - NBA 2K14

1080p - Dying Light

1080p - EA UFC

1080p - Kinect Sports Rivals

1080p - Halo 5

1080p - Murdered Soul Suspect

1080p - Need for Speed Rivals

1080p - Skylanders Swapforce

1080p - Wolfenstein

1080p - Powerstar Golf

1080p - NBA Live

1080p - Lego Marvel Superheroes

1080p - Alien Isolation

1080p - Project Spark

1080p - zoo Tycoon

1080p - Halo Spartan Assault

1080p - Lococycle

1080p - Lego Movie Video Game

1080p - Stride

 

Perhaps now that there is a complete list, (which I expect someone will demand a source of, and then start bickering because they're not all 60fps so it doesn't matter if they're 1080p) can we all just get along, and continue talking about the greatness of DX12?

[Hedon]

(which I expect someone will demand a source of)

 

Google is their friend ;)

[Houtei]

When did they say the Watch Dogs numbers?

http://www.gamepur.com/news/13907-watch-dogs-runs-1080p30-fps-ps4-960p30-fps-xbox-one-confirms-ubisoft.html

Last friday

[theyarecomingforyou]

http://www.gamepur.com/news/13907-watch-dogs-runs-1080p30-fps-ps4-960p30-fps-xbox-one-confirms-ubisoft.html

Last friday

Watch_Dogs is only 30fps on the XB1 and PS4? Ouch.

[Lord Method Man]

Google is their friend ;)

 

Only if they're a marketing or advertising professional.

[George P Global Moderator]

http://www.gamepur.com/news/13907-watch-dogs-runs-1080p30-fps-ps4-960p30-fps-xbox-one-confirms-ubisoft.html

Last Friday

 

I missed it, interesting either way, also the bit about the PC version doing 4k, I hope to see PC gameplay, there's no reason to have cut down the PC version unless they wanted it to match the others so as not to kill console sales?  But I doubt that, a sale is a sale for them regardless of what platform it's on.   Either way, as far as this topic goes, then it's just another indication of how games are starting to see their performance go up on the XB1.  At 960p with some AA you'll be hard pressed to notice a difference between the two versions IMO, also goes with what Ubisoft said about it as well.

[notuptome2004]

The Fact is  that  Directx 12 will allow developers to program more to metal then ever before  on PC and possible  on Xbone if in fact it gets  DX12 update   But the  Ps4 being OpenGL  based or  so could and can pull off  the same stuff as Directx  it has always been this way that openGL could pull off the same stuff  years prior to Diretcx  doing it..  so Dx12  means very little i think on the xbobe vs Ps4  cause the Ps4 will still have an edge on performance  

[spaceelf]

I'm happy for the X1 if it gets a decent performance update, but I don't expect it to make a huge difference.  We'll see.

 

My PC on the other hand will love it.  :D

[McKay]

 

Oh, it's a majority. I have a feeling people are just burying their heads, or have fuzzy math....

 

720p - Battlefield 4

720p - Call of Duty Ghosts

720p - Dead Rising

720p - Killer Instinct

720p - Metal Gear Solid V Ground Zeroes

720p - Witcher 3

 

792p - Titanfall Beta

 

900p - Assassin's Creed 4

900p - Ryse

900p - Thief

 

960p - Watchdogs

 

1080p - Madden 25

1080p - Crimson Dragon

1080p - Max The Curse of Brotherhood

1080p - FIFA 14

1080p - Forza 5

1080p - NBA 2K14

1080p - Dying Light

1080p - EA UFC

1080p - Kinect Sports Rivals

1080p - Halo 5

1080p - Murdered Soul Suspect

1080p - Need for Speed Rivals

1080p - Skylanders Swapforce

1080p - Wolfenstein

1080p - Powerstar Golf

1080p - NBA Live

1080p - Lego Marvel Superheroes

1080p - Alien Isolation

1080p - Project Spark

1080p - zoo Tycoon

1080p - Halo Spartan Assault

1080p - Lococycle

1080p - Lego Movie Video Game

1080p - Strider

 

 

Thats a very cherry picked, incomplete list you have there. There are games already out that aren't even on your list, and you list random games that aren't out yet. But not all of them.

[ShadowMajestic]

The Fact is  that  Directx 12 will allow developers to program more to metal then ever before  on PC and possible  on Xbone if in fact it gets  DX12 update   But the  Ps4 being OpenGL  based or  so could and can pull off  the same stuff as Directx  it has always been this way that openGL could pull off the same stuff  years prior to Diretcx  doing it..  so Dx12  means very little i think on the xbobe vs Ps4  cause the Ps4 will still have an edge on performance  

360 already supports low level access. So does the PS3 and PS4.....

For competent devs, very little will change.

 

For simpler devs/indies very much will change. It will drag up the average for XBO vs PS4 on the 1080@60 ratio's. But it will not magically improve the performance of the XBO to equal levels of the PS4. It will just make it easier getting closer to the XBO's limits.

 

Constant bickering over performance limits, both consoles already have low-level access... so what will change? IIRC on the PS3 you can even completely bypass anything Sony offers for development and API access.

[Andre S. Veteran]

I somehow doubt that the Xbox One SDK does not currently have any low-level extensions or that its DirectX implementation isn't already a lot better tuned for low-latency and multithreading. Given that, you know, every console has had specific APIs like that since forever.