directx 12 DirectX 12 Coming to Xbox One

[trooper11]

That will limit them to a 12% or less market penetration, 20% if there was suddenly a mass upgrade exodus from 8.0 to 8.1. For a developer, that is nowhere close to enough to justify meaningful investment in support.

 

OpenGL offers better performance today and already has broader platform support for newer technologies on Windows alone. Why waste time on a fragmented DirectX?

Yeah its about time there was a mass drop of DirectX support at this point. OpenGL has already made the strides to pass anything it could do and it is more OS agnostic, what more could you want.

 

 

If Microsoft bases DX12 around the XB1 and limits it to Windows 8 and above on PC (or worse makes it require Windows 9) then it won't get anywhere, much as was the case with DX10. I really don't have any faith in Microsoft doing the right thing at this point.

True, I really doubt anything changes with 12, MS has shown time and time again that they are unwilling to react in a positive way when they needed to.

 

 

The Windows UI has no bearing on the matter at all.

 

But hey, go right ahead with such lines of thinking. The more inter-version restrictions placed on DirectX just makes OpenGL more attractive to developers.

Exactly, let them fall on their own sword.

[HawkMan]

Yeah its about time there was a mass drop of DirectX support at this point. OpenGL has already made the strides to pass anything it could do and it is more OS agnostic, what more could you want.

 

 

True, I really doubt anything changes with 12, MS has shown time and time again that they are unwilling to react in a positive way when they needed to.

 

 

Exactly, let them fall on their own sword.

 

heh, funny post, well it would be if you didn't actually mean it.

[trooper11]

heh, funny post, well it would be if you didn't actually mean it.

I don't know what to believe personally. Since I lack the depth of knowledge of how these things work and compare like you or the others I replied to do, I just have to go by what people more in the know start to say on a regular basis.

That trend seems to be that one is on the way out and the other is on its way to dominance.

[Athernar]

I don't know what to believe personally. Since I lack the depth of knowledge of how these things work and compare like you or the others I replied to do, I just have to go by what people more in the know start to say on a regular basis.

That trend seems to be that one is on the way out and the other is on its way to dominance.

 

Don't let his sneering arrogance browbeat you, he's proven time and time again that he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to this subject, he just parrots the latest marketing spiel from MSFT. State facts to the contrary and you're a "troll".

 

You don't really need to be familiar with the fine detail on this level anyway, you just need to look at the trends and "politics".

 

In this case, DirectX's continued dominance is contingent on getting a "fast, low-level API" out there fairly soon and doing so with the broadest support possible. Otherwise it will be undercut by OpenGL (or Mantle if it were to be standardised).

 

But hey, check the facts, look at the stats, make up your own mind. There is plenty of data out there right now, and will be even more once GDC happens.

[trooper11]

Don't let his sneering arrogance browbeat you, he's proven time and time again that he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to this subject, he just parrots the latest marketing spiel from MSFT. State facts to the contrary and you're a "troll".

 

You don't really need to be familiar with the fine detail on this level anyway, you just need to look at the trends and "politics".

 

In this case, DirectX's continued dominance is contingent on getting a "fast, low-level API" out there fairly soon and doing so with the broadest support possible. Otherwise it will be undercut by OpenGL (or Mantle if it were to be standardised).

 

But hey, check the facts, look at the stats, make up your own mind. There is plenty of data out there right now, and will be even more once GDC happens.

So what it all boils down to is if MS is serious about reacting to the competition and taking steps to give developers more of what they want. GDC should be a huge indicator of that.

With all the changing going on at MS at the leadership level, the restructuring, and the recent cases of MS willing to make serious changes in response to feedback, maybe we might see them change their tune when it comes to this as well.

[Athernar]

So what it all boils down to is if MS is serious about reacting to the competition and taking steps to give developers more of what they want. GDC should be a huge indicator of that.

With all the changing going on at MS at the leadership level, the restructuring, and the recent cases of MS willing to make serious changes in response to feedback, maybe we might see them change their tune when it comes to this as well.

 

Pretty much. If they're smart and target Windows 7 while marketing DirectX 12 as a "fresh start" - they will probably continue to hold on to DirectX's "de facto API" crown. However if they perpetuate the same old "MSFT rulz t3h all!!11" arrogance that certain forum posters here echo, they'll create the ideal conditions for OpenGL/etc to challenge DirectX's dominance.

 

The stakes are pretty high as if they lose that crown they will never get it back, so I imagine they're probably aware of the threat. But at the end of the day you can never know for sure.

[neoadorable]

Wow, this thread took off...seems like this is a popular topic for some reason. Look, anyone that glances at the specs for PS4/X1 can tell those two can easily do 1080p and above. We're just seeing the results of human nature. Developers are human, ergo they are risk and effort minimizers for the most part. They want to be creative, they may even love their jobs, but they won't go nuts for more dynamic lighting or to give us twice the pixels or whatever. All you have to do is play Dead Rising 3 to see this. Clearly a 2009-2010 game (even has a certain lady as the US president, to show how anarchronistic it is) that had denser textures hastily slapped on it over the last year since MS told Capcom Vancouver they want this on X1 only. The result is an ugly, broken game with terrible texture streaming issues (albeit great gameplay). This is not an indication of what the host device can do, not by a long shot. It's merely an indication of what was done on it by these developers.

 

Stop bickering. All of this will pass, by 2015 both consoles will support 1440p in mainline games, i don't mean in light stuff like Don't Starve or Peggle 2. And as a "PC gamer" (like that even means anything, PC isn't even really a platform) that has spent quite a lot of money on his machine over the last couple of years, i agree with theyarecomingforyou: PC is the poster child for diminishing returns. You think a $1500 build gives you three times the real world game performance of an X1? Dream on. Most developers act like they never heard of DX11 and anything beyond 3GB system memory. Who are we to look up to? DICE? Masters of the broken game. Yeah, real master race right there.

 

And PS4 is more powerful than X1, by a small but noticeable margin. What of it? Both are great. I don't need Digital Foundry to tell me PS4 looks sharper, even the OS/UI looks a lot clearer than X1. But i enjoy them both and expect lots of great things from the two.

[BajiRav]

The Windows UI has no bearing on the matter at all.

 

But hey, go right ahead with such lines of thinking. The more inter-version restrictions placed on DirectX just makes OpenGL more attractive to developers.

are you saying that Windows UI has no dependency on DirectX (Vista onwards)?

[Houtei]

I think pc users should pray directx 12 is really in xbox one already.  If it is not than all your going to see for the next 5 years is crysis 4 and maybe a metro or battliefield in directx12 lol.  Basically games that essentially are built as tech demos first.

[HawkMan]

I think pc users should pray directx 12 is really in xbox one already.  If it is not than all your going to see for the next 5 years is crysis 4 and maybe a metro or battliefield in directx12 lol.  Basically games that essentially are built as tech demos first.

 

ummm... what, your post makes no sense. 

[Melfster]

I think pc users should pray directx 12 is really in xbox one already.  If it is not than all your going to see for the next 5 years is crysis 4 and maybe a metro or battliefield in directx12 lol.  Basically games that essentially are built as tech demos first.

Don't forget unreal 4 engine on PC which will run better on the PC then anything else. This generation will be very different then the last simple because the architecture of the Xbox one and PS4 are so similar to the PC. PC should see a massive benefit along with the fact that if rumors are true direct X 12 is closer to the metal.

[Houtei]

ummm... what, your post makes no sense. 

What about it?  Its 100% guarantee that if a console supports directx12 fully the pc will see all kinds of support for it that would not be there otherwise. Mainly because of money. Not that it wont be supported companies just dont waste money on pc exclusive features that often.

[HawkMan]

but what does that have to do with it already being on the xbox ? it's not already there, but it's coming. 

 

and as I said several time in this thread, the xbox one getting DX12 will mean that DX12 unlike DX 10 and 11 will be widely adopted. and will help sell windows 8+ as well.

[Athernar]

are you saying that Windows UI has no dependency on DirectX (Vista onwards)?

 

No, I'm saying the Windows UI is irrelevant since it's already built upon a specific revision of DirectX and thusly linked against the libs for that version.

 

Adding a new set and/or revision of APIs isn't going to interfere with that, or change the version of DirectX that DWM uses. Proven by the Vista platform update which added D3D11, but did not update DWM to D3D10 that 7 uses.

[George P Global Moderator]

No, I'm saying the Windows UI is irrelevant since it's already built upon a specific revision of DirectX and thusly linked against the libs for that version.

 

Adding a new set and/or revision of APIs isn't going to interfere with that, or change the version of DirectX that DWM uses. Proven by the Vista platform update which added D3D11, but did not update DWM to D3D10 that 7 uses.

 

I could be wrong but Vista didn't update the DWM because they didn't update the WDDM version either.   Those two go hand in hand when DirectX is used, WDDM works with the DWM.  Windows Vista lacks this and still uses the old way, like software rendering of GDI/GDI+.    One thing that hasn't changed for the DWM is it's hardware requirements, you can still use it in Windows 7 or Windows 8 with an old DX9 GPU through the feature levels that DX10 started using, though you'll still lack things until you upgrade to a newer GPU.

 

So, saying it's linked to a specific version is true, to an extent, each new version of Windows that brings a new WDDM and DXIG with it adds support for new features you do not get on older hardware specifically for the DWM.

[Athernar]

I could be wrong but Vista didn't update the DWM because they didn't update the WDDM version either.   Those two go hand in hand when DirectX is used, WDDM works with the DWM.  Windows Vista lacks this and still uses the old way, like software rendering of GDI/GDI+.    One thing that hasn't changed for the DWM is it's hardware requirements, you can still use it in Windows 7 or Windows 8 with an old DX9 GPU through the feature levels that DX10 started using, though you'll still lack things until you upgrade to a newer GPU.

 

So, saying it's linked to a specific version is true, to an extent, each new version of Windows that brings a new WDDM and DXIG with it adds support for new features you do not get on older hardware specifically for the DWM.

 

Right. You explained it in greater detail but the jist is "Adding new iterations of DirectX does not impact DWM".

 

Thanks for snipping the nonsense by the way.

[George P Global Moderator]

Back on topic, this to me just shows that DX12 can come to the XB1, the only question here is how much of the new features can it use if not all.  We know Windows 9 will get it for sure, Windows 8.1 to is probably a safe bet.  Windows 7 is the only one up in the air, they could pull another vista type platform update, that's something that's an option.    Still, if Windows 7 is left out, with the changes we hear about coming to Windows 9, I see less and less of a issue to not upgrade from 7.

[neoadorable]

When is Windows 9 supposed to come out? October this year? Will it be a free upgrade for Windows 8.1 users? Sorry, haven't been keeping up with news on this.

 

And Malfster is right, we may not like to hear it, but consoles have basically saved "PC gaming", though i'm tired of all these categorizations, consoles have always been stripped down PCs/home computers, the delineation isn't as clear as the fanatics would have you believe. Anyway, it's the relatively secure and predictable income sources from closed platforms like consoles and to a lesser degree mobile now that are subsidizing PC development. Directly or indirectly, since consoles and mobile recruit a lot of new gamers, and those guys then want to try stuff on bigger specs, so they build a PC etc. DX12 will surely play into this, and i reckon MS will co-promote it heavily on X1. You can also count on AMD doing something with Mantle on consoles, most likely PS4 or even Wii U.

[JonnyLH]

Multi-layered / stacked silicon is nothing new. Your PC's motherboard for example - have been multi-layered for years.

Exactly. Although if its true on the X1, there's something in there what we don't know about. I just wondered if anyone who knew silicon could say if it was clearly stacked or not.

but what does that have to do with it already being on the xbox ? it's not already there, but it's coming. 

 

and as I said several time in this thread, the xbox one getting DX12 will mean that DX12 unlike DX 10 and 11 will be widely adopted. and will help sell windows 8+ as well.

The silicon would of had to be designed around 12 for it to support 12. So in essence, it needs to 'already be there' for it to properly support it. I'd be highly, highly surprised if the X1 didn't natively support 12.

[McKay]

Back on topic, this to me just shows that DX12 can come to the XB1, the only question here is how much of the new features can it use if not all.  We know Windows 9 will get it for sure, Windows 8.1 to is probably a safe bet.  Windows 7 is the only one up in the air, they could pull another vista type platform update, that's something that's an option.    Still, if Windows 7 is left out, with the changes we hear about coming to Windows 9, I see less and less of a issue to not upgrade from 7.

 

If Windows 7 was left out of DX11.1 and 11.2 I doubt it'll get DX12. One more incentive for Microsoft to try and get people to move away from it. Im hoping DX will bring about at least an improvement. Thinking about it many XO games aren't that far behind the PS4 games in terms of resolution. Where some XO games are 720, the PS4 will often only be 900, where some XO games are 900, the PS4 will be 1080 (Minus oddities like Call of Duty and Metal Gear Solid). Maybe it'll bring about enough of an improvement to bump it up to the same res. Then we can go back to squabbling about textures like last gen.

[George P Global Moderator]

If Windows 7 was left out of DX11.1 and 11.2 I doubt it'll get DX12. One more incentive for Microsoft to try and get people to move away from it. Im hoping DX will bring about at least an improvement. Thinking about it many XO games aren't that far behind the PS4 games in terms of resolution. Where some XO games are 720, the PS4 will often only be 900, where some XO games are 900, the PS4 will be 1080 (Minus oddities like Call of Duty and Metal Gear Solid). Maybe it'll bring about enough of an improvement to bump it up to the same res. Then we can go back to squabbling about textures like last gen.

 

I don't know if it will get it in some big update or not, so it's up in the air.  One thing I can say is that, unless everything that's been talked about for 9 is wrong, I see no reason for users not to upgrade to it.  Once that hurdle is crossed and the resistance to upgrade to 9 from 7 like some have with 8 is passed then if 7 doesn't get DX12 it'll be less of an issue.

 

I expect another good deal for 9, $15 for digital and $30 or $40 for the full DVD like they did with 8.

[JonnyLH]

Back on topic, this to me just shows that DX12 can come to the XB1, the only question here is how much of the new features can it use if not all.  We know Windows 9 will get it for sure, Windows 8.1 to is probably a safe bet.  Windows 7 is the only one up in the air, they could pull another vista type platform update, that's something that's an option.    Still, if Windows 7 is left out, with the changes we hear about coming to Windows 9, I see less and less of a issue to not upgrade from 7.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, to think the X1 wasn't developed primary as a DX12 device is insane considering the masses of evidence which point towards that. It should get everything.

[Athernar]

I don't know if it will get it in some big update or not, so it's up in the air.  One thing I can say is that, unless everything that's been talked about for 9 is wrong, I see no reason for users not to upgrade to it.  Once that hurdle is crossed and the resistance to upgrade to 9 from 7 like some have with 8 is passed then if 7 doesn't get DX12 it'll be less of an issue.

 

I expect another good deal for 9, $15 for digital and $30 or $40 for the full DVD like they did with 8.

 

Far too long of a timeline for that. You'd have to wait for not only Windows 9 to be released, but then another year+ for it to gain significant market share, probably more as there is far less of a reason to upgrade from 7 than there was from XP.

 

Developers aren't going to wait that long just for DirectX to catch up to what other APIs are doing today.

[George P Global Moderator]

Far too long of a timeline for that. You'd have to wait for not only Windows 9 to be released, but then another year+ for it to gain significant market share, probably more as there is far less of a reason to upgrade from 7 than there was from XP.

 

Developers aren't going to wait that long just for DirectX to catch up to what other APIs are doing today.

 

But, it's not looking like it'll release with Windows 9 first, not if the XB1 stuff is an indication.  They could release it for XB1 and Windows 8.1, maybe 7 a bit later, and then with Windows 9 spring 2015.  If it does go to the XB1 in either case then developers will use it regardless, get a handle on it and then the PC will benefit either way.  

 

If 7 doesn't get DX12 developers can still use it and just switch to 11_1 level for Windows 7, which would be worst case but it's better than nothing.   Till GDC comes and we know more then we're just guessing here.   The only thing we're 100% sure of is that Windows 9 will have it, that doesn't dismiss others from though.

[Athernar]

But, it's not looking like it'll release with Windows 9 first, not if the XB1 stuff is an indication.  They could release it for XB1 and Windows 8.1, maybe 7 a bit later, and then with Windows 9 spring 2015.  If it does go to the XB1 in either case then developers will use it regardless, get a handle on it and then the PC will benefit either way.  

 

If 7 doesn't get DX12 developers can still use it and just switch to 11_1 level for Windows 7, which would be worst case but it's better than nothing.   Till GDC comes and we know more then we're just guessing here.   The only thing we're 100% sure of is that Windows 9 will have it, that doesn't dismiss others from though.

 

They could still use it, sure. But why have two renderers for different Windows versions, one which will incur significant overhead issues - when you could kill two birds with one stone and just use OpenGL. (Or Mantle if it were to be standardised)

 

Especially if you want to double-dip into the engine business, using an OpenGL codepath is going to make Mobile, GNU/Linux and OS X ports far easier. (Granted, Mobile is still largely GLES rather than full GL, but it's getting there)