official PS4 Virtual Reality (Project Morpheus)

[compl3x]

 

 

As far as wires are concerned, I really wouldn't mind honestly. I've got a mix of wired and wireless devices and it's not really a big deal for me. Both sides have their perks. I'd easily sacrifice having a wired VR set if it means I could have a good wired VR headset. :p

 

 

 

 

All of those cables hanging off of your head look pretty uncomfortable.

[blerk]

 

All of those cables hanging off of your head look pretty uncomfortable.

 

I'm sure that the production version will only have one cable. And the cable really isn't something you think about, it pops out of the backside of the device and just runs down your back (or side). A cable like this is no problem at all. :)

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

DF Spec Analysis: Project Morpheus
 

[trooper11]

Very interesting analysis from DF, particularly when it comes to performance demands.

 

The fact that Sony was driving home the point of having high frame rates made me wonder if the ps4 could deliver that consistently at 1080p.  As the DF article points out, 30fps is a disaster for VR and 60 is still not great.  So Sony is hoping that by cutting out effects that might not be needed for a VR game, developers can hit the magic numbers to make the experience enjoyable.  It certainly makes you wonder if developers will be willing to basically create two versions of a game, one when using the VR headset, and one when not to reflect the performance demands.  Or maybe it turns out that you start to just see games made specifically for VR and that is it. 

 

Of course, developers could take another page from the pc and simply force the game to switch effects on or off depending on the detected display.  Or maybe just go all the way and offer the end user access to graphics settings.  I kind of doubt they would go that far though.

[Crisp]

Rift looks like better quality to me.

[HawkMan]

Very interesting analysis from DF, particularly when it comes to performance demands.

 

The fact that Sony was driving home the point of having high frame rates made me wonder if the ps4 could deliver that consistently at 1080p.  As the DF article points out, 30fps is a disaster for VR and 60 is still not great.  So Sony is hoping that by cutting out effects that might not be needed for a VR game, developers can hit the magic numbers to make the experience enjoyable.  It certainly makes you wonder if developers will be willing to basically create two versions of a game, one when using the VR headset, and one when not to reflect the performance demands.  Or maybe it turns out that you start to just see games made specifically for VR and that is it. 

 

Of course, developers could take another page from the pc and simply force the game to switch effects on or off depending on the detected display.  Or maybe just go all the way and offer the end user access to graphics settings.  I kind of doubt they would go that far though.

 

Actually with a VR helmet with a screen for each eye, 30fps would be fine. depending on how the effect is done this would effectively be 30 or 60 fps though. 30 fps with the methods they use for 3D on the current gen hardware where it's rendered once and they use effects to make two frames from one somehow, using less resources. 60fps if each eye gets a fully rendered scene from a separate camera. 

 

The problem that makes 60 and particularly 30 fps problematic for regular 3D is the active glasses.  since then it's the same screen showing both left and right, with the glasses flickering to blind your eyes, this causes noticeable flickering.just like good old TV's you need over 100 hz for flicker free, even then there's a difference since the glasses completely blacks out, while a tube tv fades out. 

 

Either way, VR glasses/helmets don't have this problem, and 30fps will be the same there as on a regular 2D screen. granted 60 will give a smoother experience which will be more pleasing to your brain. But that's the same with resolution. and the problem is that these will appear as 100-150 inch screen for you. with with a projector that's 130-150 inches at home, I can tell yo, full HD has noticeable pixels at that size. VR will only be truly immersive at 4k. 

[trooper11]

Rift looks like better quality to me.

 

 

Well I would think that Rift would win simply because it runs on a pc, where it can be fed a high frame rate/ high resolution image using high end hardware.  I suppose that is why they made the comment about consoles being just too limited to offer performance needed to make it work smoothly.

 

 

 

Actually with a VR helmet with a screen for each eye, 30fps would be fine. depending on how the effect is done this would effectively be 30 or 60 fps though. 30 fps with the methods they use for 3D on the current gen hardware where it's rendered once and they use effects to make two frames from one somehow, using less resources. 60fps if each eye gets a fully rendered scene from a separate camera. 

 

The problem that makes 60 and particularly 30 fps problematic for regular 3D is the active glasses.  since then it's the same screen showing both left and right, with the glasses flickering to blind your eyes, this causes noticeable flickering.just like good old TV's you need over 100 hz for flicker free, even then there's a difference since the glasses completely blacks out, while a tube tv fades out. 

 

Either way, VR glasses/helmets don't have this problem, and 30fps will be the same there as on a regular 2D screen. granted 60 will give a smoother experience which will be more pleasing to your brain. But that's the same with resolution. and the problem is that these will appear as 100-150 inch screen for you. with with a projector that's 130-150 inches at home, I can tell yo, full HD has noticeable pixels at that size. VR will only be truly immersive at 4k. 

 

 

Interesting, but it sounds like from DF's impressions that even 60fps is not enough to eliminate ghosting that pulls you out of the VR experience.  I agree that resolution seems to be equally important for VR, which makes me wonder even more how far that can be pushed using a console.

 

I guess its one of those platforms that really needs to work nearly flawlessly at the start in order to succeed.  If its not up to par and the experience is obviously degraded, people quickly move on. 

[D. S. Veteran]

Oh, Virtual Boy. But in color. :shifty:

 

Don't really care much for it. I like Move, it hit the spot for me. But I don't see myself liking this very much for the same reason I don't like 3D googles. I'd rather invest in a better 120Hz panel UHDTV for my games.

[trooper11]

Oh, Virtual Boy. But in color. :shifty:

 

Don't really care much for it. I like Move, it hit the spot for me. But I don't see myself liking this very much for the same reason I don't like 3D googles. I'd rather invest in a better 120Hz panel UHDTV for my games.

 

 

True, that's the risk these companies run when trying to predict what the new fad will be.  They want to be out front to reap all of the rewards before it either fades away or becomes so mainstream that there is no longer a premium value. 

 

The funny thing is that usually add-ons like this are more likely to come farther into the life cycle of a platform with the hope that it will re-energize popular for the entire platform in the process. But here we have Sony pushing to get this out before the 2nd year anniversary of its console. Maybe they see much more potential to do it now. Wouldn't shock me to see MS follow suit considering they have been working on such a thing for years.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Project Morpheus: Sony talks advantages of fixed hardware, VR refresh rates

 

Project Morpheus and Oculus Rift were the hot topics at GDC 2014 this week, with the former in development on a fixed platform, and the latter developed for a system which becomes more powerful each year. It would seem Oculus Rift would have the advantage in the VR sector, but according to Sony R&D senior software engineer Anton Mikhailov, that?s not the case at all.

 

Speaking with Eurogamer at GDC, Mikhailov said while fixed systems such as PlayStation 4 aren?t revised every year, there?s still an advantage to the hardware.

 

?We?re in this for the long haul first of all. One thing people forget is what they?ve seen from PS4 so far have been the launch titles ? if you look at the difference in quality between PS3 launch and PS3 end of lifecycle, the quality difference is massive,? said Mikhailov.

 

?The advantage of fixed hardware is, while it doesn?t revise every year, developers continuously find new tricks to employ because it is a fixed platform. There?s a duality there. What you?re seeing currently is a pretty compelling VR experience, and these are tech demos that haven?t been optimized by top games studios. I think we?re in a good place.

 

?The Castle and The Deep, those are running on PS4. Eve Valkyrie and Thief are running on PC. They?re special builds for Morpheus, but I think you can get a sense of what?s possible with the PS4 with The Deep and The Castle, both of which are running at 60fps ? and actually higher than 1080p in some cases.?

 

Games with high refresh rates, as Mikhailov noted above with The Castle and The Deep, are important for VR, and he doesn?t see issues preventing higher frames per second.

 

When Eurogamer questioned Mikhailov on the Thief demo for Project Morpheus, the site asked how a game which ?struggles to reach 30fps on PS4? fares on the VR headset.

 

?The build we have for Thief is running 60fps, but it?s a PC build so it?s not really a comparison,? he said. But The Deep and Castle are both running at 60, and there?s other games on PS4 that are graphically intense that are running at 60. Really 30 or 60 on PS4 is more an aesthetic choice than a technological choice. Of course you can squeeze in more graphics at 30, there?s no doubt, you have double the frame time.

 

?The reality is that when you?re rendering VR, a lot of the details that traditionally get done in games like post-effects, motion blur ? they?re not needed. Things like a lot of the lens effects, a lot of the distortions people do, they?re quite expensive to do in post. You don?t need those in VR, because you?re trying to make a more believable world. So a lot of what people do in current games are camera artifact effects ? vignetting, film grain noise ? so you save a lot of processing power there first of all.

 

?There?s also another belief that people think it takes twice the power to render stereo ? that?s not true because your physics, your AI, everything runs once when you?re rendering stereo, and a lot of the graphics even only run once. For example, shadow computations can be re-used from eye to eye. So it?s really not a 2x jump going from mono to stereo.

 

?I think it?s quite feasible to run 60 in stereo for Morpheus on PS4.?

 

Project Morpheus is still in the development stages, and Sony hasn?t announced when development kits will be available, but ?it?s fairly soon.?

 

http://www.vg247.com/2014/03/22/project-morpheus-sony-talks-advantages-of-fixed-hardware-vr-refresh-rates/

[trooper11]

 

 

http://www.vg247.com/2014/03/22/project-morpheus-sony-talks-advantages-of-fixed-hardware-vr-refresh-rates/

 

 

 

They seem to be claiming that there will be some games running higher than 1080p at 60 fps based on the demos they showed off.  That's a strong claim.

 

This also brings up what we had talked about before, Sony is banking on the fact that a developer can cut graphical effects that are not needed while in VR and hit that magic 1080p/60 mark for any game.  We will see if it turns out that way.

[HawkMan]

They seem to be claiming that there will be some games running higher than 1080p at 60 fps based on the demos they showed off.  That's a strong claim.

 

This also brings up what we had talked about before, Sony is banking on the fact that a developer can cut graphical effects that are not needed while in VR and hit that magic 1080p/60 mark for any game.  We will see if it turns out that way.

It's a dubious claim. it's not technically incorrect and not technically correct.

 

like how some of the Halo games on the 360 technically rendered under 720p, but also technically rendered over this. 

 

It's further complicated by the fact that the Morpheus has two 1080 screens, except... it doesn't. They're technically 1080 screens cause that's their vertical res.... BUT.... they have half horizontal res....

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

So Media Molecule pretty much saying they're going to make something, as well as Just Add Water

 

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Project CARS? meet Project Morpheus
 

[HawkMan]

I hope they are better at adding support and mapping for a VR headset than they are at adding support for simple steering wheel considering all the pain G25 users went through to make it work properly :)

Good news though. Sim games like racers, but primarily combat flight sims is where VR headsets has the most use. Now hopefully this revives the dead combat flight sim genre. Oh janes and DiD you left us so alone... I wish we could get a modern F22 TAW.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Morpheus a ?Really Bad Idea for Sony,? but PS4 Will Be a ?Wild Success? According to Michael Pachter

 

by Giuseppe Nelva on March 24, 2014 6:55 PM

 

Today we had the chance to have a long and very interesting conversation with Wedbush Securities analyst Michael Pachter, and we heard his opinion about quite a few topics. Of course we couldn?t avoid asking about Sony?s Project Morpheus, and our crystal ball holder extraordinaire seemed not to be very enthusiastic about the commercial value of the idea.

 

I think it?s a bad idea for multiple participants to chase it, and I think it?s a really bad idea for Sony. I have no problem with the Oculus Rift, that they?re trying it, because they?re a startup and that?s a very small market and if they dominate it that?s great, but if it?s a small market and there are multiple players, it?s gonna be hard for anybody to make money.

And I don?t think it?s gonna be a big market. It sounds interesting, but I don?t think there will be enough content to justify making the capital investment to create the headset. I think it?s chicken and egg. If there?s no content you?re not gonna buy a virtual reality headset, and if you don?t buy a virtual reality headset, there won?t be any content, because no one will make a dedicated game for a very small audience.

The Oculus Rift guys are making some games themselves, and they hired some pretty impressive people. Sony certainly is capable of doing the same, and if you wanna think about Sony?s success here, remember all the big 3D games and how those did. Nobody cares. So I think it?s just a super super small market.

 

Pachter continued by explaining that gamers have demonstrated not to be very interested in peripherals with the exception of Kinect, so they?re probably not going to buy Morpheus en masse:

 

I think the Oculus guys are gonna be very happy with a million sales. If they get a million sales, they?re gonna get a ton of money. A million sales is a huge success for Oculus Rift. It?s just a hiccup for Sony.

 

I think people believe that Sony validated the concept by offering something of their own. The Oculus Rift guys, I don?t think they?re looking to sell ten million units. I think that if they sell a million they?ll create some more content, and then the next iteration sells two, the next iteration sells four? I think they have a very patient, long-term plan. A million of this for Sony? they?re better off spending that money on marketing for PS4.

We also asked him about Sony?s profitability in general, and while he was very honest in admitting that he doesn?t know much about Sony?s non-gaming businesses, he believes the PS4 will be extremely successful:

 

 

I don?t know a lot about Sony?s other businesses so I couldn?t tell you how their TV division is doing or their movie division, I think that PlayStation is going to be a wild success, and I think the PlayStation division is gonna be very profitable, buy they might lose all that money with TV shows.

It?s like talking about theme parks profits in the context of Dysney. If the Marvel movies don?t work, or if Star Wars doesn?t work, Dysney isn?t going to be as profitable if the theme park business improves by ten percent. I can?t comment on all of Sony?s businesses, because I really jsut don?t know.

 

While Pachter definitely isn?t a believer, it?ll be interesting to see if the ?wild success? of the PS4 will manage to pull gamers in with Morpheus. Hopefully it will, as the concept is definitely interesting, but lack of success from such a big player as Sony could probably put virtual reality as a mass market back into the pipe dreams closet. As usual, we?ll have to wait and see what will happen in the next couple years.

 

 

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/03/24/morpheus-a-really-bad-idea-for-sony-but-ps4-will-be-a-wild-success-according-to-michael-pachter/

[HawkMan]

Oh crap panther says PS4 will be a wild success... Well now it's official. PS4 is soon going to both have a major RRoD disaster across all PS4, up repairable, so everything has to be replaced while simulation insult have their whole online system hacked causing a chain reaction resulting in the bankruptcy of all of Sony and the end of Playstation...

Nah, this is one of those things Pachter probably got right. Not because he's good at his job. But because it's not a prediction and because a blind monkey could give the same claim at this point :)

[Mr. Gibs]

Pachter

Confirming information that a 5 year old can come up with and prove.

Claiming information is true that Einstein himself couldn't even prove.

[neoadorable]

Didn't he say like four years ago that there won't be another console generation? Now the PS4 will suddenly be a wild success? Pachter must be German for lucky, I envy this dude getting paid big money for what he does

[GotBored]

He predicts the PS4 will be a wild-success after it already is dominating the sales charts, he predicts Titanfall 2 would not be a Microsoft exclusive after EA announce titanfall 2 would not be a Microsoft exclusive.

 

So if I have the internet can I also earn top dollar as an analyst just relying information off the net and saying I predicted it?

 

As for the VR headset, he does have a point about it needing a install base so developers actually develop content for it and that's going to be hard but Sony do have a lot of first party developers that I'm sure will utilize it.

[dead.cell]

Ugh, I hate the comparisons of Oculus and the like to 3D. I know I don't speak for everyone, but I DON'T KNOW ANYONE THAT WANTED 3D!

 

How can 3D be a big hype only to die down if there was no hype to begin with? I feel like the big media pushers tried to drive 3D as the "next big thing", not demand of the consumers...

 

VR has had demand for a long time. The issue has always been with the lacking technology to do it right, not to mention the costs. For many, it's just been a pipe dream. Hell, it still might be a pipe dream, but at least it's within grasp, something we couldn't say not too long ago.

 

Now, I'm not saying Morpheus will be the answer, revolutionary, or whatever, but hey, I got to give them credit for wanting to do it, just like I give Microsoft credit for their efforts on Kinect, even if I don't personally care for it.

 

Of course, if VR catches up, the Kinect could end up on my wishlist... Funny how that goes.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

It's not a bad idea, it's what the industry is experimenting with and after the FB buyout has a big injection of hype/interest coming its way as news breaks to the general population. If you don't try to invent/adopt early and something is a home run you're left with your pants down and your competitors running away with the "install base".

 

Quite honestly they have to take a punt at it.... If not now it would end up being later and then you've got the issue I've just outlined above. I think in recent times Sony have been fed up of being last to the table constantly, with MS initially pipping them on console launch dates and cheaper pricing (360), more featured online/OS systems (Live) and more developer friendly environments from the get go (PS3 multiplat issues). They've been aggressively trying to launch first at everything these days and get the numbers in their favour early on - PS4 launch date/amount of countries, launching at the lowest price first, launching PS+ style game giveaways first, getting in indies pockets first, "better" development environment to favour multiplats this gen, and here going for VR publicly first (yes I'm sure MS have internal developments just now).

[+Eternal Tempest MVC]

Hasn't Sony been messing around with VR / 3D for some time with it's R&D (and other projects) and not necessarily exclusive originally developed just for the PS4, they decided to make one for the PS4?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Hasn't Sony been messing around with VR / 3D for some time with it's R&D (and other projects) and not necessarily exclusive originally developed just for the PS4, they decided to make one for the PS4?

 

The initial reveal highlighted since 2010/2011 I believe

 

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Just to let everyone know you can now watch the presentation here (was only liveblogging when it was live)