Will You Replace Programs for Apps When Updating to Windows 10?

[HawkMan]

So you're not aware people avoid desktop apps for performance reasons if they require .NET or Java?

 

Perhaps people without a clue, at least as far as .net goes. as for java, the only extra resource that would affect any "performance" is the extra ~50MB used by the JIT runtime. . 

Nope, I use my computer as a multi-window multi-function beast.  Can't be stuck with tablet interfaces on everything.  

 

and again, modern has nothing to do with tablet interface, and unless you have been living under a rock and haven't seen anything of windows 10. they're windowed and you can have as many of them all over as you want. 

[+Eternal Tempest MVC]

I've seen very few apps that make me want to replace with a desktop - in keyboard / mouse environment.

If this was on a tablet, different story.

[SledgeNZ]

UXGaurav, on 07 Apr 2015 - 15:09, said:

 

Anyway, there is no way to know for the end user which language a Metro app is developed in, is there?

 

And it is none of the end users concern.

 

Quite easy to find out. Outside of games and auto generated apps from websites 70% of apps are built with .Net\Xaml.

 

Microsoft started out with all their Win8 apps as being showcases for javascript (win.js) and html. They've backtracked and a lot are now managed .Net\Xaml or native (Targetted WinRT to arm\x86\x64) as much more performant.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

I'm struggling here... there is a different between can and will.

 

My opinion, is that modern applications can and will become as functional (if not more) than today's 'desktop programs'.

What I read from your statement is that you think they can't and therefore won't become as functional as today's 'desktop programs'.

 

I just don't understand the rationale behind the 'can't'.  Do you care to share?

I am sorry if I am asking you to rehash statements that you've already made, but I wouldn't be asking if I wasn't genuinely interested

 

I'm not sure if I've used the word, can't, as if they never could. However, currently (as in present day) modern ui applications can't match their desktop equivalent feature to feature.

 

windows 10 has something called adaptive ux. what this means is, the app can load a UI based on the device capabilities. therefore, if a desktop type device is detected with no touchscreen, the app can load the exact same UI layout as in the image you provided. The exact same app can then provide a touch friendly UI if its run from a tablet.Microsoft has already said they will be providing more controls that work well on different device types. And for other cases where these controls are still insufficient, there is always custom controls.

  

That will be intriguing without a doubt. It isn't here yet though...but looking forward to seeing how that works out.

umm that's what I said to start with. what are you on ?

 

Actually, it's more like comparing a calculator to Excel. they both do similar things, but one does a lot more. 

 

YEs, you could put that in a modern app if you wanted to, but the thing is modern teaches you to only have the tools you want/need visible at a time. not to have the whole toolbox out and open all the time. it's no efficient or good design no matter what UI design language you choose to use.

For the sake of arguing, handbrake is nothing more than an advanced encoder. Encoding is the only thing these two programs have in common...and one does it better...but can not edit videos. That is why I made the comparison.

To your second part, that is a subjective argument. What isn't, in is present iteration, is that modern ui can't have all the features that it's desktop counterpart have. Which is why your original example is, more our less, a companion application to the desktop version. Nice to have on the go...but the desktop gets the advanced work done.

[+longgonebn Subscriber²]

Well, for me the only apps that I use that aren't Chrome Extensions/Apps is Steam, Teamviewer, Creative Cloud.

 

There are a few others that I use less often, like VLC, Flux, CCleaner. I don't see many of these turning into Apps. I don't really care either way though.

 

What I am moving forward with is a way to not have to install anything. That is why most of my time is spent inside of a browser like Chrome.

[HawkMan]

To your second part, that is a subjective argument. What isn't, in is present iteration, is that modern ui can't have all the features that it's desktop counterpart have. Which is why your original example is, more our less, a companion application to the desktop version. Nice to have on the go...but the desktop gets the advanced work done.

 

Stop making claims that are BS.

 

yes they can, do they, no, but they certainly can. 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Stop making claims that are BS.

 

yes they can, do they, no, but they certainly can.

You say they can. Where are they? We've had these apps for a almost three years now. Where are they...now...currently?

[HawkMan]

You say they can. Where are they? We've had these apps for a almost three years now. Where are they...now...currently?

 

Not made, again, because people haven't made them doesn't make it impossible. 

 

if you had used the powerdirector app, instead of just looking at screenshots you would have seen it is entirely possible, and they can make far more "complicated" UI's than that. 

 

why don't they? well mostly because the entire market, even for desktop apps, is shifting away from the old style complicated everything is visible and windows are layered on top in a messy way type of UI's into more modern clean designs, where you get what you want when you want and need it, instead of having to hunt for stuff. 3DSMAX and photoshop are examples of old style extremely complicated UI software that is slowly gravitating to more modern and efficient GUI's PS slightly slower but if you pay attention to the changes they have added with every new version the direction is clear. 

 

And let's face it, Photoshop is the result of how old computer systems worked and a tower that has been added to for decades, and they are now gradually trying to rebuild the tower from the ground up as in it's current state it's becoming unmanageable. With todays knowledge of how massive it would be, and knowledge of GUI usability and guidelines, it would never be designed that way again. and this is true for many of not all the old apps from that era. They are only usable because people are so used to it. I have the same issue with 3DSMAX, I'm used to the old way it worked, it's complicated, stuff is hidden and require a unnecessary amount of clicks and navigation to do simple stuff. But I still often tend to use the old ways instead of the new GUI that's far easier and faster to work with.

 

Do you honestly think the desktop version if more powerful simply because it has a more complicated GUI ? that's a fallacy, the modern version can basically do the same stuff as the desktop version, and the desktop version is up to version 13!, the modern app is the equivalent of version 1 or 2 in age and developement, and it's come far further that the desktop version was at the time. 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Which doesn't dispute the current situation. Modern ui applications can not compete feature to feature with their desktop counterpart...at this moment in time. Maybe they will in the future...but right now desktop programs are superior to their modern ui equivalents.

[HawkMan]

Which doesn't dispute the current situation. Modern ui applications can not compete feature to feature with their desktop counterpart...at this moment in time. Maybe they will in the future...but right now desktop programs are superior to their modern ui equivalents.

 

That's not what you said.

you said modern apps CAN'T be feature complete or be as advanced as desktop apps. 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

That's not what you said.

you said modern apps CAN'T be feature complete or be as advanced as desktop apps. 

 

Well, maybe we can revisit this whenever they can.  Currently...they can't unless you can prove otherwise.  Even the calculator has less features than its w32 counterpart.

[spaceelf]

You guys are repeatedly arguing semantics. 

 

IIRC WinRT APIs have features win32 APIs don't.  win32 APIs have features WinRT ones don't.

 

So neither can have all the features the others have unless the programmers code it in themselves.

 

As far as complexity they certainly can, whether they do or not.  Its your usage of 'can't' he's arguing about for that very reason.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

 

I'm not sure if I've used the word, can't, as if they never could. However, currently (as in present day) modern ui applications can't match their desktop equivalent feature to feature.

 

 

I'm not going to comment on the fact you said 'can't' in the very next statement. Oops.

 

If there isn't an example then you can potentially say that you don't believe they will.  However, if there is any future possibility that one day a modern application could replace a more traditional application, well, then they 'can'.  There could be a number of reasons why there isn't an example - but is there any part of the API spec, the user interface guidelines etc. that you have seen that suggest that it is quite simply not possible?

[Psion7]

I have two issues with modern apps. Allow me to use two official Microsoft apps as examples

 

Calculator still takes 1-2 seconds to load whereas the current Win32 application loads instantly.

 

Weather has builtin ads. In an operating system default app. Sorry that is not acceptable to me.

 

And don't give me crap like Windows is free now. I am talking about Windows 8, which I paid for, has ads in the Weather app too. And OS X is free, and not just for those who upgrade in the first year, yet has no ads in any built in software.

[PGHammer]

And what defines "look and feel" in a "mobile" app?  That it supports touch?

 

Then how would you define notebooks, laptops, and desktops that support touch?  Desktops that support touch originally came about with 7 (not 8) - in fact, their introduction had exactly nothing to do with 8; instead, it had everything to do with kiosks, ATMs, POS terminals, etc.  (By the way, do you use an ATM or POS terminal at all?)

 

Also, how would you classify Office 2013?  That is a whole productivity SUITE that supports touch, Modern Design Language, etc.

 

Would you use an ATM or POS terminal with a mouse or a trackpad?

 

(There's no "/s" tag anywhere, because those are not sarcastic questions - not any of them.)

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

I would define notebooks, laptops and desktops that support touch as desktops, laptops and notebooks. 
One people disable the trackpad or plug in a usb mouse, it then becomes a tablet device - Including desktops.
Thats because the moment you use your fingers only and not a mouse or graphic pen or the like, your accuracy diminishes to such a level that what is essentially 100% accuracy with the pointing device goes down to 50% accuracy at best. Thats why on a desktop 30 inch monitor that uses touch only, you wouldn't be able to use the precision of photoshop on it, but a dumbed down version like Paint would be great. 
 

[PGHammer]

Word has been a ModernUI application since 2013.  Same with Excel.  PowerPoint, Access, etc.  (In other words, one hundred percent of Office 2013.)

If you haven't noticed (and I didn't until you defined what a ModernUI application is), then the Office team did their job correctly.  (However, by and large, the Office developers are MIcrosoft's all-stars when it comes to application and UI development, as opposed to any of the various teams elsewhere within Microsoft - and yes, I'm including the Windows and XBOX teams.)

 

To be honest, I think the REAL objection to Modern (as both design language AND UI) is that it is not biased by design - heck, an even more obvious case is comparing Word for touch and full-blown Word to each other, or comparing Word for touch to Notepad.  We have had a biased UI/UX since 199x in Windows - getting past that is still a work in progress.  The "getting past" part is being driven by what drove the start of the bias in the first place - user hardware.  Touch is becoming more prevalent - it's not even CLOSE to being just for tablets any more.  As the cost of implementation (in terms of hardware) decreases, it is going to become more prevalent - that is something that none of us can do anything about.

[PGHammer]

Sounds like Eclipse (which is an Android emulator aimed at developers) - however, it also runs within Visual Studio (2013 and later); like Office, it is a ModernDesignLanguage-driven suite/IDE.  Maybe not YET; however, don't even THINK about using the word "impossible".

[Jim K Global Moderator]

 

I'm not going to comment on the fact you said 'can't' in the very next statement. Oops.

 

If there isn't an example then you can potentially say that you don't believe they will.  However, if there is any future possibility that one day a modern application could replace a more traditional application, well, then they 'can'.  There could be a number of reasons why there isn't an example - but is there any part of the API spec, the user interface guidelines etc. that you have seen that suggest that it is quite simply not possible?

 

Not really an oops.  Right now Modern UI applications can not compete with their w32 equivalents.  I also do not foresee it happening anytime soon either.  

 

Justification:  Why would software makers spend time on desktop equivalent Modern UI applications when that user base is relatively low.  Why spend a lot of time on developing Modern UI applications when that same user base can run w32 programs (which has a far superior user base).  

 

Take Director 13 as an example which has a companion Modern UI application.  Why would Cyberlink abandon or reduce its w32 development to focus on Modern UI which only makes up 14% of the desktop platform while w32 is on 94%  (and includes the 14%)?  The reason they (Cyberlink in this example) have Modern UI application is to target those on the mobile platforms by offering them "on the go" tools...it isn't a replacement for the more powerful and feature rich desktop program.  

 

The only thing that will help Modern UI is the adoption of Windows 10 and improvements to the bland, pastel and reduced feature set that currently is Modern UI.  Personally, I still find it hard that developers will abandon w32 and continue to treat Modern applications as what they kind of are...mobile.

 

Percentages by Net Applications

 

And what defines "look and feel" in a "mobile" app?  That it supports touch?

 

Then how would you define notebooks, laptops, and desktops that support touch?  Desktops that support touch originally came about with 7 (not 8) - in fact, their introduction had exactly nothing to do with 8; instead, it had everything to do with kiosks, ATMs, POS terminals, etc.  (By the way, do you use an ATM or POS terminal at all?)

 

Also, how would you classify Office 2013?  That is a whole productivity SUITE that supports touch, Modern Design Language, etc.

 

Would you use an ATM or POS terminal with a mouse or a trackpad?

 

(There's no "/s" tag anywhere, because those are not sarcastic questions - not any of them.)

 

That is an extremely poor example...considering those devices have only one function and limited (custom) information on display.

 

The office is a good example.  On desktop, mouse.  Office has proper touch support though and it would be useful on a SP with a mouse.  I will also side with mice on computers though...mostly because I don't want fingerprints all over the screen. 

 

 

Word has been a ModernUI application since 2013.  Same with Excel.  PowerPoint, Access, etc.  (In other words, one hundred percent of Office 2013.)

 

 

Office 2013 is very much a desktop application suite.  

[+Fahim S. MVC]

Not really an oops. Right now Modern UI applications can not compete with their w32 equivalents. I also do not foresee it happening anytime soon either.

Justification: Why would software makers spend time on desktop equivalent Modern UI applications when that user base is relatively low. Why spend a lot of time on developing Modern UI applications when that same user base can run w32 programs (which has a far superior user base).

The question I asked wasn't about right now. The question I asked was about ever. You either think that they can or the can't - its a framework capability question.

Do you think the framework is such that developers can deliver fully functional application on it or not? If not, what about the framework specifically makes it impossible?

[Anibal P]

Every single person voting No is the reason why things in computing get stagnant and insecure, like XP, you all need to stop being scared of change, yes that's all it is, fear of change, and learn to be adaptinve and use the best tool for the job at the moment

[Jim K Global Moderator]

The question I asked wasn't about right now. The question I asked was about ever. You either think that they can or the can't - its a framework capability question.

Do you think the framework is such that developers can deliver fully functional application on it or not? If not, what about the framework specifically makes it impossible?

 

/sigh.  I'm talking about right now or even into the future.  Show me a present Modern UI application, like 3D Max / Photoshop / etc., that has all of the features that the w32 software has.  As I mentioned before, even the Modern UI calculator has less features (and loads slower)...and it's just a calculator.

 

Every single person voting No is the reason why things in computing get stagnant and insecure, like XP, you all need to stop being scared of change, yes that's all it is, fear of change, and learn to be adaptinve and use the best tool for the job at the moment

 

Really has nothing to do with  "change".  More or less about slower program loading times, less features and a bland/pastel appearance.  Change is good when products are better.  Change just for the sake of change is terrible.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

/sigh. I'm talking about right now or even into the future. Show me a present Modern UI application, like 3D Max / Photoshop / etc., that has all of the features that the w32 software has. As I mentioned before, even the Modern UI calculator has less features (and loads slower)...and it's just a calculator.

Sigh all you like. You are just avoiding my question.

Due to the fact that you wont give me straight answer to the question I am as asking, i will _agian_ paraphrase what it sounds like you are saying.

You appear to be suggesting that you think the framework is flawed. Can you show us where precisely the framework is flawed and what you would specifically do to improve those specific areas?

Surely if you are making that statement, you have a technical or HCI background on which to make the statement.

[Anibal P]

@jjkusaf like already started, Office 2013 is all WinRT or metro or whatever it is your all are arbitrarily hating on today

[PGHammer]

They have only one OBVIOUS function - and even that isn't always true.

 

Unless there is no port for USB, there is nothing preventing a kiosk (or ATM, or POS terminal) from being equipped with a pointing device - of any sort.

 

The "fingerprints on the screen" issue applies just as much to tablets and smartphones as it does to any other touch-capable hardware - a related issue, in fact, involves crumbs and food particles on keyboards and pointing devices.  (Speaking of which, how often do you clean your keyboard and/or pointing device?)

 

If anything, it's EASIER to clean a display than it is to clean a keyboard or pointing device - not a lot of cracks OR crevices in a screen; keyboards, on the other hand, have several - and don't get me started on multi-button pointing devices.

 

Both fall into "general maintenance" - and keeping the display clean is something that needs doing anyway - even if touch is not part of the hardware feature set.  (Therefore, adding touch support really doesn't increase the general-maintenance load any.)

 

I really don't get people in IT continuing to assume that something is "impossible" - and especially in this field.  IT historically has been in the "no longer impossible" business since its inception.

 

Yet we start getting complacent - knowing full well the consequences of doing so - our chosen field is littered with their corpses.