Star Citizen Drama

[HawkMan]

Godus is as likely to be completed or not as Star Citizen. 

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Chris Roberts updated his response to include a letter from Ortwin Freyermuth in which he threatens legal action. He's a co-founder of Cloud Imperium Games and a lawyer.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Godus is as likely to be completed or not as Star Citizen. 

Considering they'd move most of the development team at 22 Cans onto another project there's virtually no chance that Godus will ever be completed, whereas Star Citizen is being actively developed and the team is expanding. You're not being objective. Could it fail? Absolutely, but Godus has already failed.

Chris Roberts updated his response to include a letter from Ortwin Freyermuth in which he threatens legal action. He's a co-founder of Cloud Imperium Games and a lawyer.

And rightly so. I don't have any problem with legitimate articles raising concerns about the development of the game but it is absolutely unacceptable to print libellous statements without any corroborating evidence and without any comment from the accused, like the racist accusations directed at Sandi Gardiner. CIG has an obligation to protect its employees from abuse and I'm glad they're taking action. Further doubts have been raised against the article after The Escapist claimed that a source provided a photo of their employee card as evidence when in fact CIG doesn't issue employee cards. Star Citizen has attracted plenty of critical articles but The Escapist went above and beyond when they made it personal.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

[...]

And rightly so. I don't have any problem with legitimate articles raising concerns about the development of the game but it is absolutely unacceptable to print libellous statements without any corroborating evidence and without any comment from the accused, like the racist accusations directed at Sandi Gardiner. CIG has an obligation to protect its employees from abuse and I'm glad they're taking action. Further doubts have been raised against the article after The Escapist claimed that a source provided a photo of their employee card as evidence when in fact CIG doesn't issue employee cards. Star Citizen has attracted plenty of critical articles but The Escapist went above and beyond when they made it personal.

I just want the truth to come out. I read somewhere that the sources went to other gaming news sites and they refused to tell their "story". TheEscapist is the only major gaming news site to write a story about it. If their sources are bogus, then I hope they crash and burn. I hope CIG gets compensated generously and that it sets a precedent for video gaming journalism.

If this ends badly for TheEscapist, then Lizzy Finnegan can kiss her career goodbye. Talk about a lack of journalistic integrity.

[FunkyMike]

Considering they'd move most of the development team at 22 Cans onto another project there's virtually no chance that Godus will ever be completed, whereas Star Citizen is being actively developed and the team is expanding. You're not being objective. Could it fail? Absolutely, but Godus has already failed.

And rightly so. I don't have any problem with legitimate articles raising concerns about the development of the game but it is absolutely unacceptable to print libellous statements without any corroborating evidence and without any comment from the accused, like the racist accusations directed at Sandi Gardiner. CIG has an obligation to protect its employees from abuse and I'm glad they're taking action. Further doubts have been raised against the article after The Escapist claimed that a source provided a photo of their employee card as evidence when in fact CIG doesn't issue employee cards. Star Citizen has attracted plenty of critical articles but The Escapist went above and beyond when they made it personal.

What are the chances that someone just used one of those metal CIG card that were handed out to early backers  to make it look like an ID?!

lol even google image search agrees with me

Admiral of the rear .. ; )

 

[theyarecomingforyou]

I just want the truth to come out. I read somewhere that the sources went to other gaming news sites and they refused to tell their "story". TheEscapist is the only major gaming news site to write a story about it. If their sources are bogus, then I hope they crash and burn. I hope CIG gets compensated generously and that it sets a precedent for video gaming journalism.

Exactly. If there are legitimate issues with the development of the game then I want to know about them but we can't have journalists citing anonymous sources and publishing outrageous claims without any supporting evidence. That which is stated without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. If any legitimate points were made they were utterly undermined by the complete lack of journalistic integrity. It seems that CIG has a very strong legal case and I believe legal action is justified given the nature of the allegations, which were clearly libellous as published - if there was corroborating evidence it should have been provided in the article. Such accusations—if untrue—would be personally devastating. Sandi's brief appearance in Reverse The Verse was unusual and she was not herself - I dread to think the impact this has had on her and for Chris Roberts to issue such a response it's clear this is being taken very seriously.

CIG does not use legal action lightly. It didn't take any action against those who published details from the leak earlier this year, nor has it to my knowledge issued takedown requests for copyright infringement for all the YouTube videos using the game's soundtrack. This threat of legal action—and it is just as threat, as they're seeking to avoid it if possible—shows the severity of the matter. I don't think for a moment it's about compensation.

What are the chances that someone just used one of those metal CIG card that were handed out to early backers  to make it look like an ID?!

lol even google image search agrees with me

Admiral of the rear .. ; )

It wouldn't surprise me if that were the case, as the claim doesn't make sense. How can she have a photo of a CIG employee ID if they do not exist? There are a lot of people out to hurt the project and Derek Smart is the highest profile of them, an individual with a history of trolling and abusive behaviour.

[+Asmodai MVC]

I'm one of the Kickstarter backers and have absolutely no idea why you're making such an arbitrary distinction, except for the fact it matches Derek Smart's campaign against the game. Everybody who has backed the game is in the same position. Look, we get it - the game has been delayed. However, it has also increased in scope and will surpass the original vision. Most games projects on Kickstarter have been delayed - Wasteland 2 (from October 2013 to September 2014), Broken Age (from October 2012 to April 2015), Godus (probably will never be completed), etc. Surprisingly enough games are difficult to make and Star Citizen is a much more ambitious project than any of those others. Delays were expected - Chris Roberts even stated back in 2012 that delays were likely.

Are there concerns about the game and its development? Absolutely, but The Escapist article is a pathetic excuse for journalism, with allegations printed without any evidence to support them or comment sought from the accused. The entire campaign against the game is being spearheaded by Derek Smart whose own games are guilty of much greater delays, cut features and bugs. He is simply using it as a platform to promote his own game and bolster his own ego. He is the Donald Trump of video game developers.

All an audit achieves is to give people like Derek Smart ammunition against the game, to pick apart every decision and use it to attack the game. Backers knew the risks going in and, despite the delay, the game looks extremely promising - it looks like it will deliver everything and more that was promised. I don't need to know how much was spent on accommodation, on salaries, on voice actors, events or marketing - I just want a decent game. I would only support an audit if it was limited to just a 'Yes, this project is financially sound' or 'No, this project is unsustainable'. Anything else would just fuel Derek Smart's vicious campaign against the game and make it more likely to fail, which isn't something any of the backers want.

 

"it has also increased in scope and will surpass the original vision" - This is called feature creep and has been the death of many, many games in development, crowd funded or not.  In fact if very nearly killed Chris Roberts last project, Freelancer, if it weren't for the publisher, Microsoft, coming in and removing Chris Roberts and redeveloping the game with more realistic features.  Furthermore what if you don't want the increased scope?  Sure you may want it, I may even want it, but is it really so hard to imagine that there exist backers who don't want all the extra features that have been tacked on and certainly don't want to wait YEARS more than the original estimate to get them?

As for kickstarters being delayed, I've backed over 100 games on kickstarter, I'm well aware they are often delayed.  Most aren't delayed for over a year though but sure some exist that are.  I'm not aware of any others though that put in their Terms of Service that they'd do an audit and offer refunds if it ran over 12 months.  I have no idea why RSI did that and in hindsight it seems like a pretty dumb thing to do but they DID do it (unlike those other delayed kickstarters) and so they should honor it.

I don't know who is telling the truth, that's why I titled this thread "...Drama"  I don't regularly read The Escapist and I'm not familiar with the article's author.  So maybe The Escapist is a horrible, untrustworthy magazine, if that's the case then I hope RSI does sue them (heck I'd like to see someone sue someone so the truth can come out under oath in court either way) but I'm not going to just blindly believe every word out out Chris Roberts mouth either.  I do KNOW the original ToS said audit and refunds after 12 months and so I DO think they should honor that.  Again, I personally am still hoping the game comes out so I wouldn't want a refund myself (at least not at this point) but it's not so hard for me to believe that someone might not buy into the increased scope and would rather just have their money back since the game has gone way beyond what was promised when they backed it.  My hope would be that an audit would show that Derek Smart is full of it.  That they have way more than $8 million dollars left to make the game that what they have left is plenty to pay the salaries of their employees, rent/leases on their offices, etc for the year or more that they need to finish the game.  I'd love nothing more than an audit that showed nothing has been spent on making movies, buying houses, funding vacations, or paying him and his wife seven figure salaries.

[HawkMan]

I just want the truth to come out. I read somewhere that the sources went to other gaming news sites and they refused to tell their "story". TheEscapist is the only major gaming news site to write a story about it. If their sources are bogus, then I hope they crash and burn. I hope CIG gets compensated generously and that it sets a precedent for video gaming journalism.

If this ends badly for TheEscapist, then Lizzy Finnegan can kiss her career goodbye. Talk about a lack of journalistic integrity.

They had multiple sources with corroborating stories and evidence. and CIG got and DID respond. 

We don't need critical gaming media to be shut down, we need more of it and less pandering to the game developers and bought and paid for articles. 

[theyarecomingforyou]

"it has also increased in scope and will surpass the original vision" - This is called feature creep and has been the death of many, many games in development, crowd funded or not.  In fact if very nearly killed Chris Roberts last project, Freelancer, if it weren't for the publisher, Microsoft, coming in and removing Chris Roberts and redeveloping the game with more realistic features.  Furthermore what if you don't want the increased scope?  Sure you may want it, I may even want it, but is it really so hard to imagine that there exist backers who don't want all the extra features that have been tacked on and certainly don't want to wait YEARS more than the original estimate to get them?

The fans backed the expanded scope of the game. Even the original Kickstarter had stretch goals and it was very clear from the outset that an increased budget would mean a bigger, better game. No backer is going to get a game exactly how they want - CIG has to make decisions for the benefit of the entire community as it will never please everyone. Most backers are happy with the expanded scope and quality of the game.

As for kickstarters being delayed, I've backed over 100 games on kickstarter, I'm well aware they are often delayed.  Most aren't delayed for over a year though but sure some exist that are.

I listed plenty of high profile examples that were. Further, no game of this scope has ever been achieved through crowdfunding - it's hardly fair comparing it to tiny indie projects.

I'm not aware of any others though that put in their Terms of Service that they'd do an audit and offer refunds if it ran over 12 months.  I have no idea why RSI did that and in hindsight it seems like a pretty dumb thing to do but they DID do it (unlike those other delayed kickstarters) and so they should honor it.

Did you even read the Terms of Service in question?

RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.

It doesn't say that refunds would be granted after 12 months, only that they would not be made until after that date. It also doesn't stipulate that the estimated delivery date can't be changed. Further, because all game packages are bundled with ships and those ships are flyable in game now the 'unearned portion' is not defined. That's without even going into the questionable legality over the status of ToS. Even if CIG refused refunds then by the time a lawsuit is brought to completion the money would be long gone on development expenses, making it a moot point. As for the audit, that was only promised if the game couldn't be delivered at all (i.e. if it collapsed):

In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on its website to fully explain the use of the deposits for the Game Cost and the Pledge Item Cost.

You're just regurgitating Derek Smart's irrational accusations without any critical thought.

They had multiple sources with corroborating stories and evidence. and CIG got and DID respond. 

We don't need critical gaming media to be shut down, we need more of it and less pandering to the game developers and bought and paid for articles. 

They claim to have multiple sources and evidence yet they haven't provided anything to support that claim. Many of the claims made are questionable or demonstrably false. This isn't about shutting down critical gaming media, it's about demanding journalistic integrity. Many other websites passed on the story because the evidence wasn't credible. Plenty of websites have posted critical articles and opinions about the game but this one went much further than that, publishing libellous claims without any credible evidence. The article in question is a reminder of how amateurish gaming journalism is.

[+Asmodai MVC]

 

The fans backed the expanded scope of the game. Even the original Kickstarter had stretch goals and it was very clear from the outset that an increased budget would mean a bigger, better game. No backer is going to get a game exactly how they want - CIG has to make decisions for the benefit of the entire community as it will never please everyone. Most backers are happy with the expanded scope and quality of the game.

 

Not EVERY backer agrees with the expanded scope.  Again you can't run a Kickstarter for product A, get 100 backers, then crowd fun on your website and get 1000 backers and turn around and have them vote to turn Product A to product B and just absolve yourself of responsibility to those who want product A.  The kickstarter stretch goals were part of the campaign, any stretch goal announced/reached after the campaign was closed and the backers charged should not receive one kickstarter backer dollar in or be the reason for a delay in kickstarter backers getting the product they backed.  Having stretch goals during the campaign doesn't give you the right to continuously delay what the backers did pledge for by continuously adding more features they didn't.  It has nothing to do with what backers want, it has to do with what they were told they were backing at the time their money was taken.  Even if/when the game does ship they may not like it, some people just may not find it fun, that's a risk of kickstarter.  Again I'm not arguing most backers aren't happy I have no idea but maybe they are.  That doesn't negate their responsibility to those who aren't happy with the increased scope though.  You can't just outvote someone whose money you took.

 It doesn't say that refunds would be granted after 12 months, only that they would not be made until after that date. It also doesn't stipulate that the estimated delivery date can't be changed. Further, because all game packages are bundled with ships and those ships are flyable in game now the 'unearned portion' is not defined. That's without even going into the questionable legality over the status of ToS. Even if CIG refused refunds then by the time a lawsuit is brought to completion the money would be long gone on development expenses, making it a moot point. As for the audit, that was only promised if the game couldn't be delivered at all (i.e. if it collapsed):

 

Those ships are not flyable in game now.  I can't believe you'd even make such an absurd claim.  Those ships are flyable in a basic tech-demo, not anything resembling the game that was promised, backers didn't back a tech demo.  I agree though that the ToS has questionable legality but I think it's pretty sad state when defenders of Chris Roberts have to point out that it may not be legally binding that he honor his comments.  That's why I focus on the kickstarter though because the kickstarter IS legally binding and they can't get out of if by publishing on their website that they don't have to refund the money if they spent it.  If you backed it on kickstarter you don't have to agree with the RSI ToS at all, you don't ever have to have visited RSI's site at all.  The ToS is only binding to those who bought through their website and thus had to agree with it at checkout (if it's binding to anyone.)

You're just regurgitating Derek Smart's irrational accusations without any critical thought.

 

I find this statement very amusing.  I'm saying I don't know, we can't know one way or another if something is amiss.  There are reports that it is and there are reports that it isn't.  I think an audit would clear things up and since it was mentioned by RSI themselves (legally binding or not) I think it would be a good idea for them to do it.  I am NOT saying I KNOW Derek Smart or the sources of The Escapist or the author or anyone is right.  There is no way for me or YOU to know that.  YOU however seem absolutely positive that they are wrong, something you can't possibly know.  YOU seem absolutely positive that everything Chris Roberts says is right.  You're just regurgitating Chris Roberts without any critical thought.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by Asmodai

[+Asmodai MVC]

Chris Roberts updated his response to include a letter from Ortwin Freyermuth in which he threatens legal action. He's a co-founder of Cloud Imperium Games and a lawyer.

The Escapist has responded:

The Escapist, notwithstanding Cloud Imperium Games' notice and posting, stands by its coverage of Star Citizen and intends to continue to investigate the developing story. Since publishing our original stories, we have been contacted by, and are currently interviewing, additional sources corroborating a variety of the reported allegations. Additionally, if Mr. Roberts' offer for The Escapist to "meet the developers making the game and see how we're building one of the most ambitious PC games first hand" remains open, we take the opportunity to accept such invitation so as to hopefully provide the public with sufficient information and opportunity to vet such sources' allegations and claims for themselves. We have also communicated the foregoing directly to Cloud Imperium Games.

 

So it looks like Cloud Imperium Games is going to file suit.  It will be good to see what people say under oath under penalty of perjury, etc. and get this whole mess cleared up.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Not EVERY backer agrees with the expanded scope.  Again you can't run a Kickstarter for product A, get 100 backers, then crowd fun on your website and get 1000 backers and turn around and have them vote to turn Product A to product B and just absolve yourself of responsibility to those who want product A.

The game has nearly one million backers - they'll never all agree on every decision, that's why trust was placed in Chris Roberts to make the game. The game hasn't changed into a different product, it has simply increased in quality and scope. Adding an extra room to a house and improving the interior doesn't make it a totally different house.

The kickstarter stretch goals were part of the campaign, any stretch goal announced/reached after the campaign was closed and the backers charged should not receive one kickstarter backer dollar in or be the reason for a delay in kickstarter backers getting the product they backed.  Having stretch goals during the campaign doesn't give you the right to continuously delay what the backers did pledge for by continuously adding more features they didn't.  It has nothing to do with what backers want, it has to do with what they were told they were backing at the time their money was taken.

People didn't back a fully realised product, they backed a concept. The stretch goals haven't been what has delayed the project, as most of them are late stage and many have already been fulfilled. The move to 64-bit precision required for multi-crew was one of the biggest delays, as was the netcode - both were part of the original Kickstarter pitch. For all we know the game could have taken as long to develop without the additional funding.

Those ships are not flyable in game now.  I can't believe you'd even make such an absurd claim.  Those ships are flyable in a basic tech-demo, not anything resembling the game that was promised, backers didn't back a tech demo.  I agree though that the ToS has questionable legality but I think it's pretty sad state when defenders of Chris Roberts have to point out that it may not be legally binding that he honor his comments.  That's why I focus on the kickstarter though because the kickstarter IS legally binding and they can't get out of if by publishing on their website that they don't have to refund the money if they spent it.  If you backed it on kickstarter you don't have to agree with the RSI ToS at all, you don't ever have to have visited RSI's site at all.  The ToS is only binding to those who bought through their website and thus had to agree with it at checkout (if it's binding to anyone.)

Most of the ships in the original pitch are flyable now (along with many, many others) and the Constellation is due soon, possibly this month. As for the value, I'm simply pointing out that the value of the 'unearned portion of the deposit' is undefined. As for the ToS, it didn't state that people would be allowed a refund after a 12 month delay but rather than they wouldn't be entitled to one before that.

I find this statement very amusing.  I'm saying I don't know, we can't know one way or another if something is amiss.  There are reports that it is and there are reports that it isn't.  I think an audit would clear things up and since it was mentioned by RSI themselves (legally binding or not) I think it would be a good idea for them to do it.  I am NOT saying I KNOW Derek Smart or the sources of The Escapist or the author or anyone is right.  There is no way for me or YOU to know that.  YOU however seem absolutely positive that they are wrong, something you can't possibly know.  YOU seem absolutely positive that everything Chris Roberts says is right.  You're just regurgitating Chris Roberts without any critical thought.

An audit would only give ammunition to Derek Smart and those wanting to hurt the game, making it less likely the game would ever be completed. It's not in the interests of backers. Further, as I pointed out the audit was only promised if the project failed - that's just one of Derek Smart's talking points. Accusing me of believing that everything Chris Roberts says is right is just projection. I am plenty critical of the project, from the inability to meet deadlines to the dearth of playable content.

 

The Escapist has responded:

 

So it looks like Cloud Imperium Games is going to file suit.  It will be good to see what people say under oath under penalty of perjury, etc. and get this whole mess cleared up.

To me it seems rather silly for them to stand by the article and it will be interesting to see CIG's response, as I don't think they had any intention of actually filing a lawsuit - I think that was just a threat to resolve the matter. CIG will have to be extremely careful in its response, as backers will not want to see money spent on a lawsuit if there is little chance of victory. I suspect they'll back down or focus on something very specific that they have a high likelihood of succeeding with. You can't have websites like The Escapist defaming the character of CIG and its employees without consequence, with the attacks on Sandi Gardiner being unacceptable.

Unfortunately this mess is exactly what Derek Smart wanted. He has succeeded in his trolling.

[+Asmodai MVC]

The game has nearly one million backers - they'll never all agree on every decision, that's why trust was placed in Chris Roberts to make the game. The game hasn't changed into a different product, it has simply increased in quality and scope. Adding an extra room to a house and improving the interior doesn't make it a totally different house.

 

Once again, no one is saying anyone has to agree on every decision. You DO have to give the people who paid you what you told them you were buying at the time you took their money though.  You can't change what they're buying after you took their money, even if they do constitute a minority of your overall sales.  Furthermore if you buy a house, that's a set floor plan.  If you come back and the builder has changed the floor plan by adding rooms you didn't ask for so your house isn't done it IS a totally different house.  Heck if you agree to buy a red car and the dealer tries to give you a blue one, even if they're functionally identical you don't have to take the blue one and they either need to give you the red one you asked for or give you your money back.

People didn't back a fully realised product, they backed a concept. The stretch goals haven't been what has delayed the project, as most of them are late stage and many have already been fulfilled. The move to 64-bit precision required for multi-crew was one of the biggest delays, as was the netcode - both were part of the original Kickstarter pitch. For all we know the game could have taken as long to develop without the additional funding.

 

I can't even believe you'd make the claim that the stretch goals haven't been what has delayed the project.  I don't know how any objective person could possibly come to that conclusion.

 

    Most of the ships in the original pitch are flyable now (along with many, many others) and the Constellation is due soon, possibly this month. As for the value, I'm simply pointing out that the value of the 'unearned portion of the deposit' is undefined. As for the ToS, it didn't state that people would be allowed a refund after a 12 month delay but rather than they wouldn't be entitled to one before that.

 

NO ship is flyable in the game as pitched.  They're flyable in a little tech demo.  The tech demo is NOT what the backers backed.  That's like selling someone a house and then coming back with a  lego-size model of the house and saying see, we've made your house.  As for the value even you have admitted that the ToS are legally suspect.  Again that's why I'm focusing on the Kickstarter backers and Kickstarter doesn't allow an out because you wrote some legally suspect verbage in a ToS on your website that a kickstarter backer never has to go to, see, read, or agree to.

    To me it seems rather silly for them to stand by the article and it will be interesting to see CIG's response, as I don't think they had any intention of actually filing a lawsuit - I think that was just a threat to resolve the matter. CIG will have to be extremely careful in its response, as backers will not want to see money spent on a lawsuit if there is little chance of victory. I suspect they'll back down or focus on something very specific that they have a high likelihood of succeeding with. You can't have websites like The Escapist defaming the character of CIG and its employees without consequence, with the attacks on Sandi Gardiner being unacceptable.

Of course it seem rather silly for them to stand by the article to you because you completely lack critical thought on the issue and have decided that you know that Chris Roberts claims are true and theirs are false.   If you can bring yourself to admit there is a possibility that what they wrote is true then they SHOULD stand by the article.  I don't know if it's true or not, because unlike you I am not blindly following one side or the other.  IF it's true and none of the sources were Derek Smart and the sources were indeed CURRENT and former people from within the company they absolutely should stand by their article.  ESPECIALLY if even MORE sources (from within the company) are coming forward now to support the claims as the response to the lawsuit threat seems to indicate.  Again though I'm not saying they are true, I don't know, and neither should you if you weren't so blinded by your irrational support for Chris Roberts.  On the other hand I totally agree that if they were duped and the sources aren't real or worse they completely made them up then it absolutely should spell the end of the authors career and the complete destruction of the magazine's credibility (.  Again, I'm not saying I know the article is true but I don't know it's false either.  There is NO WAY either you or I KNOW what the truth is yet you're talking Chris Roberts claims as gospel.

Making idle threats you don't intend to follow through on only HURTS your credibility though, it makes you look like a bully with something to hide.  This along with the "well the ToS may not be legally binding" argument doesn't exactly make a good impression to someone capable of critical thought.  As for "defaming the character" again, I totally agree.  There is no way either you or I could possibly know if the claims are true or not though.  If they ARE true then it SHOULD come out that such things were done.  If they are NOT true then again I totally agree The Escapist should face consequences.  There is no way either you or I know if the claims are true or not so again your automatic assumption that they are not just demonstrates your own lack of critical thought.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Once again, no one is saying anyone has to agree on every decision. You DO have to give the people who paid you what you told them you were buying at the time you took their money though.  You can't change what they're buying after you took their money, even if they do constitute a minority of your overall sales.

The Kickstarter pitch was a vision, it wasn't a completed concept. The game was always intended to evolve with the community, which is exactly what it has done.

I can't even believe you'd make the claim that the stretch goals haven't been what has delayed the project.  I don't know how any objective person could possibly come to that conclusion.

Star Marine has been developed at a separate studio, so hasn't delayed the core game. There isn't even one star system, so the additional star systems haven't delayed the game. Many of the additional ships have already been released (e.g. the Mustang, etc). The orchestral score has already been completed. Mocap / facecap has already been developed and the shoot completed. A celebrity cast has already been chosen and filmed. The sound studios have already been built and used. Arena Commander has already been released. When you actually look at the stretch goals they're not what has delayed the game, it's the increased fidelity that has and that's a result of the extra funding.

NO ship is flyable in the game as pitched.  They're flyable in a little tech demo.  The tech demo is NOT what the backers backed.  That's like selling someone a house and then coming back with a  lego-size model of the house and saying see, we've made your house.  As for the value even you have admitted that the ToS are legally suspect.  Again that's why I'm focusing on the Kickstarter backers and Kickstarter doesn't allow an out because you wrote some legally suspect verbage in a ToS on your website that a kickstarter backer never has to go to, see, read, or agree to.

The Kickstarter doesn't offer ANY protections, so it offers less than the ToS on the RSI website. Again, why are you obsessing over such a small percentage of the backers? It's bizarre.

Of course it seem rather silly for them to stand by the article to you because you completely lack critical thought on the issue and have decided that you know that Chris Roberts claims are true and theirs are false.

If you're just going to make this personal I'm done responding to you.

[HawkMan]

Kickstarter doesn't actually(technically) allow you to have people donate to one project and then give them another. though. So whether the project evolved or not. they're technically in breach of kickstarters TOS. and a lot of the people who donated on kickstarter just wanted a simple classic space combat game, they didn't want all this other crap. Chris should have had a project manager to run this show and reign him in, and make sure he did that project first and released it, THEN he started working on all these other projects on top. Instead of doing 50 things at once,reminds me of people who are fixing up their new old house and instead of doing one room at a time they start one room, then in the middle they start the next and the next and the next until all the rooms are half done or torn down and they're not getting anywhere because they don't see any progress used up all the money and have no motivation. 

See the thing with all Chris previous projects is that, while he had a creative vision, he had people above him to control him and tell him to hold back and this thing needs to be done. without that control he spins out of control.  Even on his movies he was either just one of several producers or just an executive producer(basically means they just borrow your name and you MAY get to watch a pre-screen)

[spaceelf]

without that control he spins out of control.

Are you referencing an actual event or just theorizing here?  I have not heard of an actual instance where this happened.

Frankly, I think this entire debate is people who are full of crap.  The project isn't what some people wanted, the project is what some people want, blah blah blah it'll keep going in circles forever.  I never approved of the funding methods in their entirety, but I bought the game near the Kickstarter times (if not during, though from their site directly nonetheless) and I'm way more interested in what they ARE doing than some 'simple space game' that pretty much describes everything boring about gaming these days.

As long as it eventually gets finished and we can judge it on merits, I'm good.  All this arguing accomplishes nothing.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Kickstarter doesn't actually(technically) allow you to have people donate to one project and then give them another.

And that's not what's happened here. The project is what was pledged. Chris Roberts set out a vision and the extra funding better allowed him to achieve that.

Let's just wait and see. If the game fails then all the critics were right and everybody loses; if the game is great then the gamers win and the critics were wrong. In just a few days it will be CitizenCon and we'll have a much better idea of how the game is shaping up. For me a delay is irrelevant - it's the end game I care about.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

Are you referencing an actual event or just theorizing here?  I have not heard of an actual instance where this happened.

Frankly, I think this entire debate is people who are full of crap.  The project isn't what some people wanted, the project is what some people want, blah blah blah it'll keep going in circles forever.  I never approved of the funding methods in their entirety, but I bought the game near the Kickstarter times (if not during, though from their site directly nonetheless) and I'm way more interested in what they ARE doing than some 'simple space game' that pretty much describes everything boring about gaming these days.

As long as it eventually gets finished and we can judge it on merits, I'm good.  All this arguing accomplishes nothing.

Well said. I'm hopeful because I choose to be. It's the game I've wanted for years but I'm willing to accept the reality of it failing. The only option I have is to wait and see how it pans out. 

[+Asmodai MVC]

The Kickstarter pitch was a vision, it wasn't a completed concept. The game was always intended to evolve with the community, which is exactly what it has done.

The Kickstarter doesn't offer ANY protections, so it offers less than the ToS on the RSI website.

This is all just completely incorrect.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Kickstarter has a legally binding ToS that every project submitter must agree to in order post a project at all, RSI had to agree to it in order to post their Star Citizen project on the site.  There is also a ToS that every backer must agree to in order to submit a pledge.  One of the major reasons for backing crowd funding campaigns through Kickstarter is specifically because it DOES offer you more legal protections as a backer than just giving money directly to a company.

If you're just going to make this personal I'm done responding to you.

 

This must be a joke right?  What am I making personal?  YOU accused me of being a mouthpiece for Derek Smart (repeatedly, want me to grab the quotes?), a point that is obviously not true since I'm not saying I KNOW he, the Escapist, or anyone else is right, I'm saying we don't know either way.  So I pointed out that you in fact are serving as a mouthpiece for Chris Roberts because you ARE assuming everything he says it right with no way of possibly knowing that.  I didn't bring up how you were just parroting Chris Roberts until you accused me of doing so for Derek Smart.  Heck I've repeatedly called the man a troll in this thread myself.  So if that constitutes making it personal maybe you shouldn't have done it.  Especially since you can't back up your claim, at no point did I say I knew Derek or the Escapist were right.  I titled this thread "...drama" for a reason.  Most of your comments on the other hand are based entirely on the assumption that Chris Roberts is right, which you can't possibly know.
 

Likewise the comments on "critical thought" were in direct response to your "You're just regurgitating Derek Smart's irrational accusations without any critical thought." statement.  I'm once again pointing out that while I am NOT saying I know Derek Smarts points or those of The Escapist are true (there is no way either of us can know that) your responses again are based entirely off the assumption that Chris Roberts statements are correct.  Since you have no way of KNOWING that for sure it is in fact you who lack critical thought, pot meet kettle.  Again if claiming someones statements lack critical thought constitutes making this personal then maybe you shouldn't have done it to me.

As for being done responding to me, that's GREAT!  As far as I can tell you've added NOTHING of value to this entire thread so if you stop posting that's a plus.  I wouldn't presume to tell someone else to stop posting, people are free to share their opinions no matter if I agree with them or not of course but if you're offering I gladly accept your offer.  Since all of the points you have tried to make are either incorrect, unsupported by you, or just parroting what Chris Roberts says as if it's fact there's no loss, I already try to ensure Chris Robert's responses to accusations are included.

[+Asmodai MVC]

Are you referencing an actual event or just theorizing here?  I have not heard of an actual instance where this happened.

Might want to read up on the Freelancer game then.  That was his last game project before going to Hollywood and it only exists today because MS (the publisher) bought the studio from him, removed him, changed the scope of the game, and then released what we have today as Freelancer.  So Star Citizen is very much Freelancer 2.0 only no one is likely to buy the studio and fix it because the game has already been sold and the money spent.

Also the Wing Commander movie failed for similar reasons.  From a Reddit AMA with Chris Roberts himself (that quote should be enough to google if you don't believe me, reddit is blocked at work here):

I needed a producer that could do more than just do a good deal. I needed someone to help me on the set, to tell me, "hey, Chris, I know you want to do these 10 things, but we only have money to do 5 things really well. So let's pick what they are and knock them out of the park and cut the others."

[HawkMan]

Are you referencing an actual event or just theorizing here?  I have not heard of an actual instance where this happened.

Frankly, I think this entire debate is people who are full of crap.  The project isn't what some people wanted, the project is what some people want, blah blah blah it'll keep going in circles forever.  I never approved of the funding methods in their entirety, but I bought the game near the Kickstarter times (if not during, though from their site directly nonetheless) and I'm way more interested in what they ARE doing than some 'simple space game' that pretty much describes everything boring about gaming these days.

As long as it eventually gets finished and we can judge it on merits, I'm good.  All this arguing accomplishes nothing.

 

Look at his history. the games he made where he was kept under control. the game he made with the freedom he has now (freelancer) that failed and had to be escued by others making a game out of a thousand half finished pieces and dreams. 

[HawkMan]

 

Might want to read up on the Freelancer game then.  That was his last game project before going to Hollywood and it only exists today because MS (the publisher) bought the studio from him, removed him, changed the scope of the game, and then released what we have today as Freelancer.  So Star Citizen is very much Freelancer 2.0 only no one is likely to buy the studio and fix it because the game has already been sold and the money spent.

Also the Wing Commander movie failed for similar reasons.  From a Reddit AMA with Chris Roberts himself (that quote should be enough to google if you don't believe me, reddit is blocked at work here):

The wing commander movie also had NOTHING to do with wing commander the game or universe. effin submarine pings... seriously... you'd think he didn't play a part in making the original games.... 

[theyarecomingforyou]

Look at his history. the games he made where he was kept under control. the game he made with the freedom he has now (freelancer) that failed and had to be escued by others making a game out of a thousand half finished pieces and dreams. 

Firstly, Freelancer was a commercial and critical success - calling it a failure is hardly fair, despite the well known issues with its development. Secondly, that doesn't invalidate all of Chris Roberts' achievements and successes. Do you think he didn't learn from the experience? At the end of the day people have decided to trust him to make a title on his own terms, without any publisher interference. If it fails it fails but this article is not evidence of its failure, it's evidence of poor journalism and unsubstantiated accusations. Star Marine and the Baby PU are just around the corner and will better inform us as to how the game is progressing, as will the content revealed at CitizenCon. Rushing to write-off the project now is premature.

[HawkMan]

Firstly, Freelancer was a commercial and critical success - calling it a failure is hardly fair, 

 

 

And I didn't call the game a failure. it was afterall rescued ad pulled together from the scraps Christ left when he ran out of money and support.  Had it not been bought by MS and put together by a project manager who cansee the whole picture and put it together and decide what needs to be dropped, it wouldn't have existed. 

And no I don't think he learnt from the experience, he did much of the same mistakes in hollywood and even if you ignore this drama.  and assume thievery is peach and good with development, he's still doing the same thing. The game at this point has a ridiculous budget. many times larger than should be necessary to finish it. yeah, it's huge and it's ambitious, but nowhere near where it should require the kind of budget they've have scraped together and supposedly used up. 

[Zidane]

The Kickstarter pitch was a vision, it wasn't a completed concept. The game was always intended to evolve with the community, which is exactly what it has done.

Star Marine has been developed at a separate studio, so hasn't delayed the core game. There isn't even one star system, so the additional star systems haven't delayed the game. Many of the additional ships have already been released (e.g. the Mustang, etc). The orchestral score has already been completed. Mocap / facecap has already been developed and the shoot completed. A celebrity cast has already been chosen and filmed. The sound studios have already been built and used. Arena Commander has already been released. When you actually look at the stretch goals they're not what has delayed the game, it's the increased fidelity that has and that's a result of the extra funding.

The Kickstarter doesn't offer ANY protections, so it offers less than the ToS on the RSI website. Again, why are you obsessing over such a small percentage of the backers? It's bizarre.

If you're just going to make this personal I'm done responding to you.

I really respect your posts theyarecomingforyou but that last line is extremely hypocritical. I've read every post on this thread so far and on numerous occasions you attempted to serve your points by drawing similarties between Derek and Asmodai.

One such as "You're just regurgitating Derek Smart's irrational accusations without any critical thought." that you just said up above. I took a snip just in-case it vanishes mysteriously.