Was the Win 8 font rendering issue fixed on Windows 10?

[hyde+]

In reference to the blurry text problem in Office 2013 applications running on Windows 8 and 8.1 as described here and here, I was wondering if the issues was addressed in Win 10 or if it still has that  "faded" look that makes it much harder read the text in Windows 8 running Office 2013?

[TAZMINATOR]

  On 03/08/2015 at 15:44, hyde+ said:

In reference to the blurry text problem in Office 2013 applications running on Windows 8 and 8.1 as described here and here, I was wondering if the issues was addressed in Win 10 or if it still has that  "faded" look that makes it much harder read the text in Windows 8 running Office 2013?

I don't have any problem on mine... remember, we all don't have same system and graphic cards...   depends what graphic card you have...  you can try and see.. If not happy, then you can do either update the graphic card if available or roll back to Windows 8.1.. 

It's up to you. Since Windows 10 is free anyway as long as you choose the upgrade option.

[hyde+]

Thanks, it was mainly an issue on high resolution laptop screens and not specifically due to graphics card issue.
If you read the link I included above,

  Quote

No amount of adjustment with Clear Type tuner helps much.
I have tried all the fixes recommended like ticking "use Software rendering instead of GPU rendering" in IE10 and in Options in Office 2013.
It makes absolutely no difference.

I installed Windows 8 on completely different hardware to check if it was a graphics card issue. The poor font rendering was still there.

I am currently dual booting Windows 7 and 8 on the same PC. Fonts in Windows 7 remain perfectly clear. In windows 8 they are so bad, the OS is basically unusable.

And also here:

  Quote

he cause for Office, Modern UI and IE10 to look so bad is that they use a new graphics rendering API offered in Windows 8 (and with updates on Windows 7, too). 

The new font rendering engine offered by this new API simply doesn't have Clear Type implemented. So unless Microsoft patches this new API to support Clear Type, no program using this API will ever be able to do so.

The reason why Firefox (and Chrome, to an extend) are able to use Clear Type is because they still rely on the old Windows font-rendering API.

 

This is a bad decision by Microsoft, but their reasoning behind that (from what i think) is also quite clear: It is based on the assumption that their future will be in the tablet market. Since ClearType only works in one direction (horizontally, that is), it is totally useless if you rotate the tablet. The other thing is animation: if you animate a Clear Type anti-aliased font, its boundaries will start to flicker. And since Modern UI is a lot about animations and transitions, this would offer a bad experience. 

 

Last thing is the much higher ppi (pixels per inch) offered by tablet screens (>200ppi) in respect to computer monitors (mostly <=120ppi), where grayscale-anti aliasing is totally sufficient for crisp fonts.

And the worst thing: the Surface has a display with only 148ppi! So fonts look crappy on their reference design tablet. 

 

The bad thing is: no one can help you with the font rendering problem. You're on your own, as a consumer. For me that meant to downgrade back to Office 2010, ignoring Modern UI and all apps completely and ditching IE 10 (but hey, that's a no-brainer, isn't it?).

[TAZMINATOR]

I got that but like I said, you can always roll back to Windows 8.1 if you aren't happy with the problem on Windows 10... 

Otherwise just wipe and install Windows 7...  It's really up to you.

I don't have any problems with Windows 8.1 and 10 since I got them installed.

[Pam14160]

  On 03/08/2015 at 16:59, TAZMINATOR said:

I got that but like I said, you can always roll back to Windows 8.1 if you aren't happy with the problem on Windows 10... 

Otherwise just wipe and install Windows 7...  It's really up to you.

I don't have any problems with Windows 8.1 and 10 since I got them installed.

. . .Ditto. . .

[Noir Angel]

I've noticed no difference in the font rendering in Windows 10. I'm not sure if Chrome has been updated or if W10 has updated the way it handles font, but I think font in Chrome looks better in W10 than it did in 8.1. I can't say I've noticed any difference in Office either.

[adrynalyne]

I see a few issues on my Spectre.  Ironically, it ends up being Device Manager that I see it the most.

 

If I change my scaling back to the default 200%, it helps, but then everything is huge.

 

This is not lowered quality for the forum, it actually looks this blurry.

[LizardRumsfeld]

  On 03/08/2015 at 17:03, Javik said:

I've noticed no difference in the font rendering in Windows 10. I'm not sure if Chrome has been updated or if W10 has updated the way it handles font, but I think font in Chrome looks better in W10 than it did in 8.1. I can't say I've noticed any difference in Office either.

Chrome uses DirectWrite sub-pixel RGB (modern Cleartype) rendering regardless of whatever version of Windows you're on, which is why you don't notice anything different. Office 2013 and up use grayscale font rendering, as do Modern/Universal apps (including Edge) and much of Windows 10's new GUI elements, which produce the chunky/rough look with smaller text sizes.

RGB sub-pixel rendering was basically Cleartype's main innovation and heralded as such when it arrived, it was designed to basically combat the issue of poor legibility that Windows 8/Office 2013 re-introduced.

[Noir Angel]

Did they recently change that? because I'm sure font looks better in Chrome since I switched to Windows 10

[shockz]

Firefox does this for me. Standard DPI. Intel graphics.

[Atlantico]

  On 03/08/2015 at 15:44, hyde+ said:

In reference to the blurry text problem in Office 2013 applications running on Windows 8 and 8.1 as described here and here, I was wondering if the issues was addressed in Win 10 or if it still has that  "faded" look that makes it much harder read the text in Windows 8 running Office 2013?

No, the text rendering is as "amazing" in Windows 10 as it was before in Windows 8.1 

And it depends a lot on the app used too. Here is the same thing as rendered by Edge, then Chrome, then Firefox:

(note the difference in how they render e.g. the first line "10 posts in this topic", where Edge is just atrociously bad)

[hyde+]

There are two different issues.  I just want to clarify. My main concern is with Office 2013, not other applications.

 

One is "Blurry Font" issue directly related to DPI on high resolution screens, regardless of the application/software that is running.
The other is the MS Office text problem, where text looks really faded and somewhat "thinner" compared to other menus. For example in outlook you can clearly see the difference in text of context menu vs context menu in other windows applications which uses native context menu (right click).

This is just a basic example, there is a lot more, including items and text within outlooks like email list for one.

Now the difference in your screen may not be as drastic but what I see below is a huge difference in readability:

MS Office:

  vs 

 

Now imagine reading hundreds of emails with fonts faded like above instead of being truely black even though text and font is selected as Size 10 at Black.

 

[Atlantico]

I get what you mean, I guess my point was that there is still no uniform and good way text is rendered in Windows 10, so Office looks like that, Chrome looks like something else, Edge looks like something else entirely etc etc. 

[+DonC Subscriber²]

  On 03/08/2015 at 17:16, LizardRumsfeld said:

RGB sub-pixel rendering was basically Cleartype's main innovation and heralded as such when it arrived, it was designed to basically combat the issue of poor legibility that Windows 8/Office 2013 re-introduced.

You could always invest in a higher resolution monitor if anti-aliasing isn't for you. No matter what technique AA uses, some definition is always lost. I switch between Windows 7 and Windows 8 daily and I simply don't see this "poor legibility."

[Atlantico]

  On 03/08/2015 at 21:04, DonC said:

You could always invest in a higher resolution monitor if anti-aliasing isn't for you. No matter what technique AA uses, some definition is always lost. I switch between Windows 7 and Windows 8 daily and I simply don't see this "poor legibility."

That is (unfortunately) completely wrong. On 2560x1440 monitor AA is required for fonts just as much as it is on a 640x480 ... even more so, in fact because everything is going to be a bit jaggy on low res monitors. So counter-intuitively high res monitors need AA more than low res.

[0sit0]

  On 03/08/2015 at 18:06, hyde+ said:

There are two different issues.  I just want to clarify. My main concern is with Office 2013, not other applications.

 

One is "Blurry Font" issue directly related to DPI on high resolution screens, regardless of the application/software that is running.
The other is the MS Office text problem, where text looks really faded and somewhat "thinner" compared to other menus. For example in outlook you can clearly see the difference in text of context menu vs context menu in other windows applications which uses native context menu (right click).

This is just a basic example, there is a lot more, including items and text within outlooks like email list for one.

Now the difference in your screen may not be as drastic but what I see below is a huge difference in readability:

MS Office:

  vs 

 

Now imagine reading hundreds of emails with fonts faded like above instead of being truely black even though text and font is selected as Size 10 at Black.

 

These are two completely different fonts... they won't look the same no matter what... and probably different color too (#000 vs #555 for example) it has nothing to do with Windows. 

[hyde+]

  On 03/08/2015 at 21:04, DonC said:

You could always invest in a higher resolution monitor if anti-aliasing isn't for you. No matter what technique AA uses, some definition is always lost. I switch between Windows 7 and Windows 8 daily and I simply don't see this "poor legibility."

How am I supposed to do that on a laptop or tablet (I am using Laptop with 1920x1080 on 14" and my coworker uses 2k resolution on his X1 Carbon) we both have similar results, yet my other coworker running same 2013 on Win 7 has much better readability. Do you use Office 2013 on both devices, my first post above was specifically for Office 2013 and I am not alone, so there is obviously an issue with the way Office 2013 is programmed and it doesn't properly display fonts.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

  On 04/08/2015 at 00:12, Atlantico said:

That is (unfortunately) completely wrong. On 2560x1440 monitor AA is required for fonts just as much as it is on a 640x480 ... even more so, in fact because everything is going to be a bit jaggy on low res monitors. So counter-intuitively high res monitors need AA more than low res.

That's not really true, while you still need AA on high density screens (Unless we're talking like 400ppi+), schemes like ClearType become kinda pointless (Greyscale uses whole pixels for AA, while ClearType only uses 1/3rd of a pixel or so, the pixels are so small on high resolution screens that it's hard to tell the different between 1/3rd of a pixel and a whole pixel)

  On 03/08/2015 at 17:15, adrynalyne said:

I see a few issues on my Spectre.  Ironically, it ends up being Device Manager that I see it the most.

 

If I change my scaling back to the default 200%, it helps, but then everything is huge.

 

This is not lowered quality for the forum, it actually looks this blurry.

Yep, completely normal and unavoidable for users, it's up to the application developer to fix it (And MMC is one of the few apps in Windows that hasn't been updated to fix it, not odd considering it hasn't been updated since 2000 anyway)

It's a trade off, do you make the window contents blurry but present them at the right size, or make them pixel perfect but then have odd scaling and cut off text everywhere? Every OS has picked the former.

[trag3dy]

  On 03/08/2015 at 17:15, adrynalyne said:

I see a few issues on my Spectre.  Ironically, it ends up being Device Manager that I see it the most.

 

If I change my scaling back to the default 200%, it helps, but then everything is huge.

 

This is not lowered quality for the forum, it actually looks this blurry.

 

Something else is off in this picture. Did you change your DPI settings because not only is my text not blurry like that but the window and text are easily twice as big as mine too, without having re-sized the window.

[neo1911]

I have this issue but I dare not complain on this forum or else I would be hounded by fanbois saying I am doing wrong.

But it's clear to me that blurriness on certain apps when DPI is set to 125% is a bug (or a feature) of Windows 10.

No problem.

Fix it using this tool. Windows 10 DPI fix

Run it as an admin and set it to use Windows 8.1 style DPI rendering. At-least it solved all my issues with DPI.

[adrynalyne]

  On 04/08/2015 at 03:29, trag3dy said:

Something else is off in this picture. Did you change your DPI settings because not only is my text not blurry like that but the window and text are easily twice as big as mine too, without having re-sized the window.

Nope. Just changed scaling to 150%.

It is more clear at 200%, but then things are larger than I care for.  My guess is you run at 200%, which is default with 13 inch @ 1440p.

[Gorilambo]

Edge, Internet Explorer and all Modern Apps may have their font blurriness changed through the Clear Type wizard, just like this:

 

DEFAULT:

 

 

TWEAKED:

(Sorry, the screenshot's quality isn't veeeery good, but you can get the picture )

Edited August 4, 2015 by Mamoru-san

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

  On 04/08/2015 at 03:59, d5aqoëp said:

I have this issue but I dare not complain on this forum or else I would be hounded by fanbois saying I am doing wrong.

But it's clear to me that blurriness on certain apps when DPI is set to 125% is a bug (or a feature) of Windows 10.

No problem.

Fix it using this tool. Windows 10 DPI fix

Run it as an admin and set it to use Windows 8.1 style DPI rendering. At-least it solved all my issues with DPI.

The only change I can think of is the level when DPI scaling in the DWM kicked in, previously they allowed for a slight increase in DPI to be handled by applications that couldn't handle it (Which might be the 125% thing you're talking about), if they got rid of it, it's because it didn't work for most apps.

  On 04/08/2015 at 04:02, adrynalyne said:

Nope. Just changed scaling to 150%.

It is more clear at 200%, but then things are larger than I care for.  My guess is you run at 200%, which is default with 13 inch @ 1440p.

Yeah, at integer scales (100%, 200%, 300%, etc.) the DWM uses nearest neighbor scaling (Because not only is it super simple, it also provides better graphical quality because everything still ends up on pixel boundaries), at other scales it has to use bilinear scaling, and that's what gives the "bad" results (There's nothing MS can do about that though, short of pushing devs really heavily to fix their programs)

[neo1911]

  On 04/08/2015 at 06:30, The_Decryptor said:

The only change I can think of is the level when DPI scaling in the DWM kicked in, previously they allowed for a slight increase in DPI to be handled by applications that couldn't handle it (Which might be the 125% thing you're talking about), if they got rid of it, it's because it didn't work for most apps.

Yeah, at integer scales (100%, 200%, 300%, etc.) the DWM uses nearest neighbor scaling (Because not only is it super simple, it also provides better graphical quality because everything still ends up on pixel boundaries), at other scales it has to use bilinear scaling, and that's what gives the "bad" results (There's nothing MS can do about that though, short of pushing devs really heavily to fix their programs)

But Microsoft's own programs or parts of Windows show this DPI scaling problems. So who is going to push them?

day by day, I am getting sick of these small things Microsoft has changed in Windows 10 which has actually made things worse.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

None of Microsoft's new programs have these issues (There's a reason they're pushing XAML based UIs so heavily), it's only old legacy code that has these flaws (And half the time it's just a plain oversight, high PPI displays are still quite rare in the PC desktop world, issues get missed) There's a fair bit of code that's implemented in libraries and dynamically executed, because they don't go through the normal application codepaths they miss out on DPI scaling unless they explicitly request it (And then that can cause other issues, since the code is loaded into other apps, so Microsoft recommend against doing it)

Same reason Microsoft is pushing apps to use Direct2D and DirectWrite, they're resolution independent by default and provide good results regardless of the screen density (Which is why when Mozilla originally implemented DirectWrite people hated it, because it didn't have the flaws they were used to from GDI that held back resolution independence), those complaints can often force devs to hold back.