PC either shutting itself down or does not wake from sleep...

[AndyD]

8 minutes ago, DevTech said:

1. what is new PSU

 

2. Make sure "auto restart on bluescreen" is disabled in system settings

 

3. Update mobo BIOS and try to confirm the mobo knows how to deliver power to the 1080

 

4. All that being said the most likely cause all along would be bad power state management in a device driver which is the typical cause for crashes that never happen when you are using the computer.

 

- One debug technique is to temp disable all possible power saving and suspend states although 100 % coverage of that is probably not possible.

 

- Look for anything "old" or not common in the way of a device via PCi or USB.

 

- Avoid generic Windows drivers from Microsoft wherever possible

 

 

1) EVGA 750 P2

2) It's not a blue screen...there is no memory dump.  Either the system shuts down while in sleep or it locks up

3) BIOS is the latest - from 2014.  What do you mean by delivering power to the 1080?

4) I can't imagine the motherboard being the reason since it was fine for two years before I switched out the RAM and added the 1080.  Not sure what other device driver it can be.

 

In terms of PCI - I only have the 1080 and a USB card.  The latter I added way after these issues started to occur.

 

I don't usually ever use Windows drivers though I may be using the chipset ones.  Last time I reinstalled everything was back in March

[DevTech]

- Also, as a temp debug measure, slow your system RAM timing way down. Run 20% or so less than stock.

 

- Then slow CPU by 10%. Make sure all automatic Turbo crap in BIOS is OFF.

 

- Then make sure voltage is default values with NO multipliers, NO Turbo etc.

 

- At some point it might make sense to pull the CPU chip and carefully inspect the socket pins under magnification.

 

- And make sure no gap developed in chip to cooler.

 

 

[LaP]

I have not read the whole thing and sorry if what i'll write has already been addressed. I read you are using XMP? Don't forget by using XMP you might be overclocking your front bus. It can lead to instability even if the cpu temp are nice. Anyway was the case the last time i built a computer (10 years ago). If it's not already done i would try to turn XMP off.

[AndyD]

1 minute ago, DevTech said:

- Also, as a temp debug measure, slow your system RAM timing way down. Run 20% or so less than stock.

 

- Then slow CPU by 10%. Make sure all automatic Turbo crap in BIOS is OFF.

 

- Then make sure voltage is default values with NO multipliers, NO Turbo etc.

 

- At some point it might make sense to pull the CPU chip and carefully inspect the socket pins under magnification.

 

- And make sure no gap developed in chip to cooler.

 

 

CPU should be fine - I actually replaced the heatsink with a new one the same time I switched out the PSU since the Noctua heatsink I was using was blocking RAM slots

[DevTech]

1 minute ago, LaP said:

I have not read the whole thing and sorry if what i'll write is already addressed. I read you are using XMP? Don't forget by using XMP you might be overclocking your front bus. It can lead to instability even if the cpu temp are nice. Anyway was the case the last time i built a computer (10 years ago). If it's not already done i would try to turn XMP off.

yes. RAM should be slowed right down until problem is debugged.

[AndyD]

2 minutes ago, LaP said:

I have not read the whole thing and sorry if what i'll write has already been addressed. I read you are using XMP? Don't forget by using XMP you might be overclocking your front bus. It can lead to instability even if the cpu temp are nice. Anyway was the case the last time i built a computer (10 years ago). If it's not already done i would try to turn XMP off.

I never used XMP till I was having issues setting the RAM up in BIOS for the timings / voltage it's rated for.  At the time, I read that XMP would be the better option.  Honestly, I don't care or want any overclocking.  

 

Just now, DevTech said:

yes. RAM should be slowed right down until problem is debugged.

Do you mean change MHZ?  I believe it's running currently at 1333MHZ because of XMP.  Should I set this to manual?

 

[DevTech]

1 minute ago, AndyD said:

CPU should be fine - I actually replaced the heatsink with a new one the same time I switched out the PSU since the Noctua heatsink I was using was blocking RAM slots

You are actually making my point. Don't assume anything. For example new heatsing could be slightly concave or convex leading to "hot spots" and a finicky CPU pin could have been disturbed by the change etc.

 

Just now, AndyD said:

I never used XMP till I was having issues setting the RAM up in BIOS for the timings / voltage it's rated for.  At the time, I read that XMP would be the better option.  Honestly, I don't care or want any overclocking.  

 

Do you mean change MHZ?  I believe it's running currently at 1333MHZ because of XMP.  Should I set this to manual?

 

Yes. Every main setting in BIOS should be Manual.

 

Run the RAM at 1066 or 1200 etc for a while.

 

Increase the voltage one notch on the RAM

 

[AndyD]

Just now, DevTech said:

You are actually making my point. Don't assume anything. For example new heatsing could be slightly concave or convex leading to "hot spots" and a finicky CPU pin could have been disturbed by the change etc.

 

My point was really that I've been having these issues since August regardless of what I've done.

 

1)  I've reinstalled Windows twice

2)  Switched out PSU

3)  Switched out Heatsink (not because of this issue)

 

And yet, I'm still running into the same problem.  What I never tried was switching out the RAM for something else.

[DevTech]

1 minute ago, AndyD said:

My point was really that I've been having these issues since August regardless of what I've done.

 

1)  I've reinstalled Windows twice

2)  Switched out PSU

3)  Switched out Heatsink (not because of this issue)

 

And yet, I'm still running into the same problem.  What I never tried was switching out the RAM for something else.

That is simply not being logical.

 

1. waste of time

 

2. waste of time not needed

 

3. source of possible issues and should be double-checked

[AndyD]

Why do you think the heatsink is the problem if that's a change I made last week and I've been having these issues since last August?   Like before the switch, my PC will shut down or crash while in sleep mode.

 

I don't have any temp issues whatsoever before or after the heatsink switch.   The CPU is idling at 29C at the moment.

 

The PSU I didn't think was the problem but I did it based on suggestions from others.  I guess I'll have a PSU for another build if I ever need it

[DevTech]

11 minutes ago, AndyD said:

1) EVGA 750 P2

2) It's not a blue screen...there is no memory dump.  Either the system shuts down while in sleep or it locks up

3) BIOS is the latest - from 2014.  What do you mean by delivering power to the 1080?

4) I can't imagine the motherboard being the reason since it was fine for two years before I switched out the RAM and added the 1080.  Not sure what other device driver it can be.

 

In terms of PCI - I only have the 1080 and a USB card.  The latter I added way after these issues started to occur.

 

I don't usually ever use Windows drivers though I may be using the chipset ones.  Last time I reinstalled everything was back in March

1. Fine power supply but so was original.

 

2. Just confirm auto restart is off, otherwise you will never know if it was a bluescreen or not. Sneaky thing Microsoft did there a few years back.

 

3. Modern GPU cards do a power balancing act between draw from the mobo bus and the external power connector to the card. Both draw significant wattage. New cards on old mobos can be problematic for this reason but I don't ATM suspect that as a source of any issues.

 

4. OMG. You have made low level hware changes that can affect unknown crap. For example device drivers share interrupts and plugging in new hware can cause that share chain to change and if one device does not play well with others  you get glitches specially when the bad playground behavior is on the power management code and super hard to debug.

 

You are simply making way too many assumptions about the state of your system. Your mental model is flawed. Almost by definition the problem is something you have overlooked.

 

[DevTech]

6 minutes ago, AndyD said:

Why do you think the heatsink is the problem if that's a change I made last week and I've been having these issues since last August?   Like before the switch, my PC will shut down or crash while in sleep mode.

 

I don't have any temp issues whatsoever before or after the heatsink switch.   The CPU is idling at 29C at the moment.

 

The PSU I didn't think was the problem but I did it based on suggestions from others.  I guess I'll have a PSU for another build if I ever need it

I don't think the heatsink is a problem.

 

It is simply an area you have disturbed and is worthy of some attention since a bad or intermittent contact with a single unlucky CPU pin can cause exactly the issue you have which is why I listed it.

[DevTech]

I have methodically listed a lot of items to check since I'm not there.

 

To provide context, here is my current guess on the likely cause (not in any order):

 

1. BIOS setting

 

2. Bad device or device driver.

 

3. Incompatibility between mobo and 1080

 

4. Wonky RAM timings. (repeat of #1 really)

 

What I'd like to do is get the crash data somehow which has a 50/50 chance of identifying a driver or component although often these are Red Herrings.

 

[AndyD]

11 minutes ago, DevTech said:

1. Fine power supply but so was original.

 

2. Just confirm auto restart is off, otherwise you will never know if it was a bluescreen or not. Sneaky thing Microsoft did there a few years back.

 

3. Modern GPU cards do a power balancing act between draw from the mobo bus and the external power connector to the card. Both draw significant wattage. New cards on old mobos can be problematic for this reason but I don't ATM suspect that as a source of any issues.

 

4. OMG. You have made low level hware changes that can affect unknown crap. For example device drivers share interrupts and plugging in new hware can cause that share chain to change and if one device does not play well with others  you get glitches specially when the bad playground behavior is on the power management code and super hard to debug.

 

You are simply making way too many assumptions about the state of your system. Your mental model is flawed. Almost by definition the problem is something you have overlooked.

 

In regards to...

 

#2 - it was enabled.  I disabled it but wouldn't there be a memory dump if there was a bsod?   When this happens, the system is either shut down or the power light is on but the system is no longer responsive / screens are black

 

#4 - I'm not new to PC builds - I've been building PCs for myself and others since Windows 95.  I understand that power management in general can be problematic but before I switched out the RAM and switched out the 970 for a 1080, I had 0 issues with the system for over 2 years.  It spent most of the time in sleep because it was my HTPC that I only used occasionally.

 

9 minutes ago, DevTech said:

I don't think the heatsink is a problem.

 

It is simply an area you have disturbed and is worthy of some attention since a bad or intermittent contact with a single unlucky CPU pin can cause exactly the issue you have which is why I listed it.

I understand but I have to reiterate that this problem has existed for over 8 months now and I only changed out the heatsink last week along with the PSU.  Otherwise, I made no changes to the system besides the RAM and 1080 when I built the current system out of the HTPC I had.   It was then when these problems started to occur.  

[DevTech]

2 minutes ago, AndyD said:

In regards to...

 

#2 - it was enabled.  I disabled it but wouldn't there be a memory dump if there was a bsod?   When this happens, the system is either shut down or the power light is on but the system is no longer responsive / screens are black

 

#4 - I'm not new to PC builds - I've been building PCs for myself and others since Windows 95.  I understand that power management in general can be problematic but before I switched out the RAM and switched out the 970 for a 1080, I had 0 issues with the system for over 2 years.  It spent most of the time in sleep because it was my HTPC that I used occasionally.

 

I understand but I have to reiterate that this problem has existed for over 8 months now and I only changed out the heatsink last week along with the PSU.  Otherwise, I made no changes to the system besides the RAM and 1080 when I built the current system out of the HTPC I had.   It was then when these problems started to occur.  

#2 confirm dump size set to "mini-dump"

 

#4 again you just support my point. You made changes. The system behaves differently. We just don't know yet if cause and effect or red herring.

 

#heatsink - you mentioned it which triggered my recall that CPU pin issues can cause this problem. You moved stuff around. Physically caused force vectors to be applied to the hardware etc. Just being complete.

 

If you can grasp the approach I am taking of assuming very little, it works. Your problem can get solved. These are the worst problems to debug and consume time. I often avoid replying to threads on power management issues. I may sound rude and abrupt - it is just meant to reduce typing and stay on focus.

[DevTech]

You might have introduced other devices when changing from a HTPC to a Desktop PC:

 

- keyboard

- mouse

- webcam

- memory card

- USB drives

- USB misc sticks etc

- etc

 

any of which have potential for power state issues.

 

[goretsky Supervisor]

Hello,

 

Any issues with the AC power circuit the computer is plugged into?

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

[AndyD]

On 5/25/2017 at 1:13 PM, DevTech said:

You might have introduced other devices when changing from a HTPC to a Desktop PC:

 

- keyboard

- mouse

- webcam

- memory card

- USB drives

- USB misc sticks etc

- etc

 

any of which have potential for power state issues.

 

I checked the heatsink and surrounding area.  That seems to be fine.

 

And sure, I added a keyboard and mouse to that PC.  Since then, I've added...

 

a USB card for Oculus

a new keyboard

an extra SSD

 

But the sleep issue started immediately after the conversion to my desktop PC where I added the video card and switched out the RAM.  I did put it in a new case as well.

 

I thought I might have fixed the issue by...

 

Disabling fast startup

And falling back to my motherboard's drivers for management engine since I read online that people were having shutdown issues with newer versions.  I was having shut down issues as well

 

But after two days of sleeping, it failed to wake again

 

On 5/26/2017 at 2:38 AM, goretsky said:

Hello,

 

Any issues with the AC power circuit the computer is plugged into?

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

You mean plug directly into wall instead of power strip?  I could try that.  If you mean the wall output, should be fine.

[AndyD]

Thought  I'd update on this - after a year of not using sleep, a few months ago I set it to sleep again.

 

So much time wasted - it was either a Windows problem or some driver.  I have not had any crashes / shutdowns during sleep in several months as I did last year.  No hardware has changed besides the PSU I bought to replace the one I had which didn't solve the problem then.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

6 hours ago, AndyD said:

Thought  I'd update on this - after a year of not using sleep, a few months ago I set it to sleep again.

 

So much time wasted - it was either a Windows problem or some driver.  I have not had any crashes / shutdowns during sleep in several months as I did last year.  No hardware has changed besides the PSU I bought to replace the one I had which didn't solve the problem then.

my guess is the graphics driver you had installed at the time was at fault; not the first time i've seen them mess with / break sleep states

[JustGeorge]

On 1/9/2017 at 7:29 AM, AndyD said:

So I haven't had an issue since Dec 26th.  Before that it was at least every other day and sometimes more than once a day.   I'm quite perplexed.

 

1)  I did check the cabling but the same day it happened again

 

2)  For whatever reason, I decided to switch the PSU cable I was using to the one that actually came with the power supply.   That was after #1

 

3)  I've updated Nvidia drivers and windows updates since then

 

Could #2 really be the reason?  Or maybe something was fixed in #3?   Not sure if I'm jinxing myself but hopefully I won't have this issue again.  I was very close to purchasing another PSU since Seasonic would not allow an advanced replacement.  Not sure if any companies do but next time I buy a PSU I will check to see if any do.

Never mix power cables from different PSUs. They're not all wired the same. You would think something like that would be standard, but they ain't.

[AndyD]

4 hours ago, slamfire92 said:

Never mix power cables from different PSUs. They're not all wired the same. You would think something like that would be standard, but they ain't.

Got it - never had any issues in many years but shouldn't take the risk

 

5 hours ago, Brandon H said:

my guess is the graphics driver you had installed at the time was at fault; not the first time i've seen them mess with / break sleep states

Hard to say.  This went on for months but that doesn't mean it wasn't due to Nvidia

[JustGeorge]

8 minutes ago, AndyD said:

Got it - never had any issues in many years but shouldn't take the risk

 

 

Info came straight from Gamers Nexus, btw. They know they're ****

 

I may have missed it, but did you check the event log for clues?