Advice on a graphics card video editing and work

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

2 minutes ago, stevember said:

Being a member of this site for 17 years, I stopped posting a few years ago because of this kind of attitude. I appreciate you helping, and I have given you the respect in answering your questions. But respect goes both ways. Please don’t presume that I know nothing about computers. And as the thread when on I was right. I pointed out where the problem wasn’t to save time.

 

 

Umm, if someone knows about computers, they will give FULL spacs, i5 6400 3.1Ghz, not just an i5...

 

But, since you showed us that CPU-Z information, that helped us.

[stevember]

14 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

 

 

Umm, if someone knows about computers, they will give FULL spacs, i5 6400 3.1Ghz, not just an i5...

 

But, since you showed us that CPU-Z information, that helped us.

I will bear that in mind.  The reason I didn't, is because no matter which i5 it wouldn't have made that much difference. 

 

However, I do appreciate your help.  Thank you.

[DevTech]

On 2018-03-14 at 9:31 AM, stevember said:

I will bear that in mind.  The reason I didn't, is because no matter which i5 it wouldn't have made that much difference. 

 

However, I do appreciate your help.  Thank you.

This thread has been very messed up.

 

If you search back a bit in this forum there was a very long and involved thread on video editing.

 

You need to separate out your tasks and them map them onto the hardware affected to see where money is best spent.

 

1. There is nothing special about an i7 over an i5 any more if there ever was that would hit you in the gut if clock speed is the same.

 

2. Photoshop wants lots of RAM and them more RAM and will create a custom swap file if does not have enough. Photoshop hates your paltry 16 gig of RAM.

 

3. Your 950 Pro is fantastic but too small. So watch carefully what gets offloaded to your 5400 rpm Reds because they are crap for task loads. They are designed to store static data, not process it. If you can't process everything on the 950 Pro, then you need more "Pro" or else a WD Black 6 TB:

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822235281

 

4. Premier wants CPU and RAM and will use GPU to accelerate encoding only with recent versions and with the right hardware which they specify in detail on the Adobe website and the right config settings.

 

5. Your Redraw time and your Encode time are two completely separate issues.

 

5.A) Redraw - this one might need more back and forth info to figure out. You have a large pixel surface, but it is just 2D so it smells more like RAM staggering than CPU or GPU but it could be all of them together. If the Redraw is like a Pause, then it is probably RAM swapping to disk. If it is just bit by bit slow, then it is CPU most likely.

 

5.B) Encode. Premier has a long tradition of better support for NVIDIA for encoding. You also need a current version of Premier. Some older versions worked but needed a lot of config settings. Also:

 

5.B.1) On screen GPU acceleration is a relatively new Premier capability that again is really only debugged in the latest version.

 

5.B.2) off line GPU acceleration has been around for a while and accepts a wider variation in hardware. It is easy to confuse the two types of acceleration and see them as the same problem.

 

5.B) Both accelerations have been benchmarked by specialist sites and I linked to them in the giant video editing discussion. Giiven the stupid pricing of GPU cards right now, some creativity might be needed to evaluate the cost performance of various cards but a SLI config of two 1050 might be faster and more affordable than a single 1080 but one of us can look up the actual data at some point. Never guess!

 

6. Provide details on the size and resolution of what you are editing. If you are editing 4K, you have completely unusable hardware for that or at least too many pain points in daily use. One trick is to edit all files in a lower resolution and then Premier can repeat all the edits in 4K for the final encode of the video file. You definitely want a super-duper GPU properly configured for that.

 

 

 

 

[DevTech]

On 2018-03-14 at 9:31 AM, stevember said:

I will bear that in mind.  The reason I didn't, is because no matter which i5 it wouldn't have made that much difference. 

 

However, I do appreciate your help.  Thank you.

FWIW although the discussion could have been much more "low key" there is a huge difference in i5 performance from the first generation to the current generation. I would not want a first gen i5 for anything.

 

But for i7, a 2600K 2nd generation is still a great performer, i5 2400 jumped a lot but was still quite a bit weaker and little by little the gap narrowed each generation so there is no point in spending significant money for i7 over i5 if clock speed and number of cores is the same.

[stevember]

6 hours ago, DevTech said:

This thread has been very messed up.

 

If you search back a bit in this forum there was a very long and involved thread on video editing.

 

You need to separate out your tasks and them map them onto the hardware affected to see where money is best spent.

 

1. There is nothing special about an i7 over an i5 any more if there ever was that would hit you in the gut if clock speed is the same.

 

2. Photoshop wants lots of RAM and them more RAM and will create a custom swap file if does not have enough. Photoshop hates your paltry 16 gig of RAM.

 

3. Your 950 Pro is fantastic but too small. So watch carefully what gets offloaded to your 5400 rpm Reds because they are crap for task loads. They are designed to store static data, not process it. If you can't process everything on the 950 Pro, then you need more "Pro" or else a WD Black 6 TB:

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822235281

 

4. Premier wants CPU and RAM and will use GPU to accelerate encoding only with recent versions and with the right hardware which they specify in detail on the Adobe website and the right config settings.

 

5. Your Redraw time and your Encode time are two completely separate issues.

 

5.A) Redraw - this one might need more back and forth info to figure out. You have a large pixel surface, but it is just 2D so it smells more like RAM staggering than CPU or GPU but it could be all of them together. If the Redraw is like a Pause, then it is probably RAM swapping to disk. If it is just bit by bit slow, then it is CPU most likely.

 

5.B) Encode. Premier has a long tradition of better support for NVIDIA for encoding. You also need a current version of Premier. Some older versions worked but needed a lot of config settings. Also:

 

5.B.1) On screen GPU acceleration is a relatively new Premier capability that again is really only debugged in the latest version.

 

5.B.2) off line GPU acceleration has been around for a while and accepts a wider variation in hardware. It is easy to confuse the two types of acceleration and see them as the same problem.

 

5.B) Both accelerations have been benchmarked by specialist sites and I linked to them in the giant video editing discussion. Giiven the stupid pricing of GPU cards right now, some creativity might be needed to evaluate the cost performance of various cards but a SLI config of two 1050 might be faster and more affordable than a single 1080 but one of us can look up the actual data at some point. Never guess!

 

6. Provide details on the size and resolution of what you are editing. If you are editing 4K, you have completely unusable hardware for that or at least too many pain points in daily use. One trick is to edit all files in a lower resolution and then Premier can repeat all the edits in 4K for the final encode of the video file. You definitely want a super-duper GPU properly configured for that.

 

 

 

 

Thank you, for the in-depth reply.  Really appreciated.

 

I do believe the i7 6 cores, 12 threads and 12 MB cache 8700 K will be an improvement over my i5 4 cores, 4 threads and 6 MB cache.  Yes, I see now there is a huge difference between the older i5 and the newest.  I was unaware quite how much difference there is.

 

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-8700K-vs-Intel-Core-i5-6500/3937vs3513

 

I'm aware that's quite generic, however looking at the difference of the multicore processing that is where the encoding happens.  And with the prices of GPU cards, I do think this would be cost effectively the best first step.

 

What do you think?

 

Regarding Adobe photoshop, really I shouldn't have mentioned it as 99% of the work really involves cropping and resizing the saving closing.  I'm not a photoshop Guru.  Maybe the odd action, but it is rare.  Even my paltry 16 GB of RAM is okay, although we can always do with more RAM even when it says there is some free.

 

I will take on board your advice regarding the hard drive.  The 950 pro is the system drive.  I use a 850 EVO 512 GB SSD drive as the current project drive.  So all my workings are done on that.  Your suggestion would save me moving projects before and after.

 

I will check out the Adobe website, thank you.

 

I do use the latest Adobe products, via a subscription.  (Always handy to have a student in the family)

 

I don't think it is the system pausing, it is more the interface drawing.  Instead of bang it is present, you see it slowly building up.

 

Thank you for the information regarding redraw, I did not know RAM would affect that.  Are you talking about the VRAM?

 

Regarding Nvidia, I believe you're right I have been ignorant to my love of AMD/ATI for fire too long.  It is about time in the graphics work grew up :-) just never owned an Nvidia card.  It is time I did.

 

5.B I would be interested in looking at the results, obviously not from a game perspective are purely editing in Adobe and exporting.  If that's possible?

 

6.  Editing, is all HD not looking at editing 4k yet.  Mainly for youtube, via Canon 70 D.  Online courses, which are then put through handbrake because I host them on S3 Amazon.

 

Again, I appreciate your detailed reply.

 

[DevTech]

4 hours ago, stevember said:

Thank you, for the in-depth reply.  Really appreciated.

 

I do believe the i7 6 cores, 12 threads and 12 MB cache 8700 K will be an improvement over my i5 4 cores, 4 threads and 6 MB cache.  Yes, I see now there is a huge difference between the older i5 and the newest.  I was unaware quite how much difference there is.

 

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-8700K-vs-Intel-Core-i5-6500/3937vs3513

 

I'm aware that's quite generic, however looking at the difference of the multicore processing that is where the encoding happens.  And with the prices of GPU cards, I do think this would be cost effectively the best first step.

 

What do you think?

 

Regarding Adobe photoshop, really I shouldn't have mentioned it as 99% of the work really involves cropping and resizing the saving closing.  I'm not a photoshop Guru.  Maybe the odd action, but it is rare.  Even my paltry 16 GB of RAM is okay, although we can always do with more RAM even when it says there is some free.

 

I will take on board your advice regarding the hard drive.  The 950 pro is the system drive.  I use a 850 EVO 512 GB SSD drive as the current project drive.  So all my workings are done on that.  Your suggestion would save me moving projects before and after.

 

I will check out the Adobe website, thank you.

 

I do use the latest Adobe products, via a subscription.  (Always handy to have a student in the family)

 

I don't think it is the system pausing, it is more the interface drawing.  Instead of bang it is present, you see it slowly building up.

 

Thank you for the information regarding redraw, I did not know RAM would affect that.  Are you talking about the VRAM?

 

Regarding Nvidia, I believe you're right I have been ignorant to my love of AMD/ATI for fire too long.  It is about time in the graphics work grew up :-) just never owned an Nvidia card.  It is time I did.

 

5.B I would be interested in looking at the results, obviously not from a game perspective are purely editing in Adobe and exporting.  If that's possible?

 

6.  Editing, is all HD not looking at editing 4k yet.  Mainly for youtube, via Canon 70 D.  Online courses, which are then put through handbrake because I host them on S3 Amazon.

 

Again, I appreciate your detailed reply.

 

The right GPU will encode video a lot faster than a 8700K. But the 8700K speeds up everything. So if that is in your budget, it is the sensible first step to get the 8700K.

 

The 8700K uses DDR4 for which the sensible starter is 2 16 gig DIMMs giving 32 gig and allowing 2 more for eventual 64 gig.

 

While GPU prices are high, a used GPU from ebay such as a GTX 780 is probably not affected by the Bitcoin mess and provides a stopgap for a while.

 

VRAM normally is used for holding Textures which would have no effect on Video Editing. Even if you use a 3D tool like Maya etc, to create video titles etc the VRAM requirements will be nominal.

 

Adobe started out supporting NVIDIA only for GPU encoding but now support both. For me, NVIDIA is a no brainer but to be fair Adobe claims support for current AMD cards.

 

I will scroll back in the forums here to find the previous discussion (and heated arguments) and post the link later.

 

For Video editing the disk sub-system requires careful consideration. With spinning hard drives the best config was to stream of one physical drive and write to another physical drive. SInce SSD has close to zero access time comared to a hard drive it is possible to use a single SSD for both input and output with a whole bunch of caveats. In practice it often still makes sense to config 2 SSDs such as you have done. However you have done it backwards.

 

SSDs die without warning when they hit their write limit. With a current non-enterprise consumer SSD drive, it is almost impossible for a name brand SSD to hit write limits before the computer is obsolete for typical consumer workloads. The exception here is professional workloads such as editing graphics, compiling code, and yeah, video editing. These professional taks can creat a very write intensive environment which is a huge weakness of SSDs.

 

Current Samsung SSDs using 3D NAND Flash have remarkable write longevity but it doesn't hurt to configure things just right. The "Pro" models are designed for write loads and the EVO models are designed for typical consumer "read-mostly" loads. So for video editing, reading from a EVO and writing to a Pro would make the most sense.

 

If you are going to get a 8700K then that will mean a new motherboard and you can select one with two (or more)  M.2 NVMe sockets. Keep you 950 Pro as a system drive and get a 960 Pro 1 TB or 2 TB as your Video Editing drive. A 960 Pro should be able to read and write projects on the same drive due to insane performance both in serial transfer rate but very importantly high IOPS and high Queue Depth. 

 

 

[stevember]

4 minutes ago, DevTech said:

The right GPU will encode video a lot faster than a 8700K. But the 8700K speeds up everything. So if that is in your budget, it is the sensible first step to get the 8700K.

 

The 8700K uses DDR4 for which the sensible starter is 2 16 gig DIMMs giving 32 gig and allowing 2 more for eventual 64 gig.

 

While GPU prices are high, a used GPU from ebay such as a GTX 780 is probably not affected by the Bitcoin mess and provides a stopgap for a while.

 

VRAM normally is used for holding Textures which would have no effect on Video Editing. Even if you use a 3D tool like Maya etc, to create video titles etc the VRAM requirements will be nominal.

 

Adobe started out supporting NVIDIA only for GPU encoding but now support both. For me, NVIDIA is a no brainer but to be fair Adobe claims support for current AMD cards.

 

I will scroll back in the forums here to find the previous discussion (and heated arguments) and post the link later.

 

For Video editing the disk sub-system requires careful consideration. With spinning hard drives the best config was to stream of one physical drive and write to another physical drive. SInce SSD has close to zero access time comared to a hard drive it is possible to use a single SSD for both input and output with a whole bunch of caveats. In practice it often still makes sense to config 2 SSDs such as you have done. However you have done it backwards.

 

SSDs die without warning when they hit their write limit. With a current non-enterprise consumer SSD drive, it is almost impossible for a name brand SSD to hit write limits before the computer is obsolete for typical consumer workloads. The exception here is professional workloads such as editing graphics, compiling code, and yeah, video editing. These professional taks can creat a very write intensive environment which is a huge weakness of SSDs.

 

Current Samsung SSDs using 3D NAND Flash have remarkable write longevity but it doesn't hurt to configure things just right. The "Pro" models are designed for write loads and the EVO models are designed for typical consumer "read-mostly" loads. So for video editing, reading from a EVO and writing to a Pro would make the most sense.

 

If you are going to get a 8700K then that will mean a new motherboard and you can select one with two (or more)  M.2 NVMe sockets. Keep you 950 Pro as a system drive and get a 960 Pro 1 TB or 2 TB as your Video Editing drive. A 960 Pro should be able to read and write projects on the same drive due to insane performance both in serial transfer rate but very importantly high IOPS and high Queue Depth. 

 

 

Yes I could do with everything a little faster to be honest.

 

I already have DDR 4, is not the quickest but it will have to stay for the moment.

 

I will keep an eye out for a GTX 780.  There's probably going to be a load of bitcoin newbies spending their cash, and never harvesting one.  Even with the other crypto currencies there are available.

Regarding the VRAM I understand what you are saying.  Although using the wrong language I was meaning the DDR on the graphics card.  I'm getting old!

 

Interesting what you say though.  I did not know that.

 

I'm going to go with what you're saying about Nvidia.  I'm quite excited about making a change.

 

Yeah the heated arguments, it wasn't really.  I did want to address the jumping down someone's throat was unnecessary.  However he did help and I appreciate it.  We all have a chimp in our subconscious mind.

That makes sense regarding the SSD's.

 

Everything I do on the SSD drive is pretty much temporary, it is always a copy of the raw video as I'm aware of the limitations and the sudden death.  I owned a few OCZ drives so I'm really aware of a dying SSD.

Thank you for the reading and writing advice.

 

The motherboard I've got is fine, it will take 8700 K.

 

I will wait until the 960 pro reducing cost a little, but that makes perfect sense.

 

So the first thing I would do is get my hands on an 8700 K.

 

Then consider doubling my RAM.

 

While keeping an eye out for a nice GTX 780.

 

Really appreciate your in-depth replies, it really helps.

[DevTech]

49 minutes ago, stevember said:

Yes I could do with everything a little faster to be honest.

 

I already have DDR 4, is not the quickest but it will have to stay for the moment.

 

I will keep an eye out for a GTX 780.  There's probably going to be a load of bitcoin newbies spending their cash, and never harvesting one.  Even with the other crypto currencies there are available.

Regarding the VRAM I understand what you are saying.  Although using the wrong language I was meaning the DDR on the graphics card.  I'm getting old!

 

Interesting what you say though.  I did not know that.

 

I'm going to go with what you're saying about Nvidia.  I'm quite excited about making a change.

 

Yeah the heated arguments, it wasn't really.  I did want to address the jumping down someone's throat was unnecessary.  However he did help and I appreciate it.  We all have a chimp in our subconscious mind.

That makes sense regarding the SSD's.

 

Everything I do on the SSD drive is pretty much temporary, it is always a copy of the raw video as I'm aware of the limitations and the sudden death.  I owned a few OCZ drives so I'm really aware of a dying SSD.

Thank you for the reading and writing advice.

 

The motherboard I've got is fine, it will take 8700 K.

 

I will wait until the 960 pro reducing cost a little, but that makes perfect sense.

 

So the first thing I would do is get my hands on an 8700 K.

 

Then consider doubling my RAM.

 

While keeping an eye out for a nice GTX 780.

 

Really appreciate your in-depth replies, it really helps.

Oh no, that's not heated arguments. That was a tempest in a teapot. No, I meant this thread which went nuts and was edited by mods twice and yet all of that produced a lot of useful discussion!

 

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1341802-new-rig-build-2500-maybe-little-bit-more/

 

The computer was supposed to be for 4K Video Editing but it turned out later in the thread, that 4K was not a "hard" objective. Anyways read the thread and my links to ppbm8 are on the 4th page.

 

I made this list to help find "value" in older GPUs:

 

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1353564-list-of-value-gpu-candidates/

 

It might help you in a quest to find the most powerful GPU that has NOT been eyeballed by the Bitcoin crazies...