Chances of being a software engineer?

[sc302 Veteran]

1 hour ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

I just remembered recently talked to my advisor and I took trig last semester actually and about to start taking calc, but that still won't land me a job at Google apparently now would it?

If google is the only thing in your sights at the moment, no it won't....Your attitude will get you killed.  It takes about a year before you hear anything once you have been accepted.  The interview process is a good part psychological to see if you fit in which takes 6months to a year to complete , with potential months not knowing if you made it to the next stage.

 

This is a good read of the hiring process.  #3 is kind of grueling with technical and philosophical questions that have no answer, which tests your mental and to see if you break in any way.

https://www.themuse.com/advice/get-a-gig-at-google-an-inside-look-at-the-hiring-process

 

here is another, more specific to your field.  You have to be able to code and troubleshoot on a whiteboard.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-interview-process-like-at-Google-What-are-the-people-like

 

[neufuse Veteran]

12 hours ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

so i basically can never get a job at google or anything now as well?

 

if you want a software engineering job at google, you are going to at minimum need a masters degree in computer science... even PhD's have a hard time getting good jobs there in that field..

 

I'm the lead software engineer for a company and believe me, we require a lot of skill and personaility

[sc302 Veteran]

6 minutes ago, neufuse said:

if you want a software engineering job at google, you are going to at minimum need a masters degree in computer science... even PhD's have a hard time getting good jobs there in that field

I wouldn't say that it is a necessity, but you really really really have to know your stuff to the point of being able to design and troubleshoot your own coding language.   A Google job is competing with the smartest people on the planet for a Google paycheck.  As I said, you have to be the best of the best (even that isn't always good enough), they get their pick of the best genes in the gene pool.

 

Google makes everything in house, if there is an app or a OS requirement, they won't pay outside firms like Microsoft (standard OS) or Cisco (network operating system for switches) to support them.  They are self sustaining.

[neufuse Veteran]

2 minutes ago, sc302 said:

I wouldn't say that it is a necessity, but you really really really have to know your stuff to the point of being able to design and troubleshoot your own coding language.   A Google job is competing with the smartest people on the planet for a Google paycheck.  As I said, you have to be the best of the best (even that isn't always good enough), they get their pick of the best genes in the gene pool.

yeah, not a necessity, but to get in the door at google you better have a masters, it's very competitive and there are tons of PhD's and masters candidates applying you wont stand out as well without one

[sc302 Veteran]

24 minutes ago, neufuse said:

yeah, not a necessity, but to get in the door at google you better have a masters, it's very competitive and there are tons of PhD's and masters candidates applying you wont stand out as well without one

If you write a good book and have many lectures on your coding, you probably have a shot without the PhD or Masters.  They just might seek you out, supposedly it has happened before (reliable source stated so, I never actually saw it in writing)

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

29 minutes ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

I just remembered recently talked to my advisor and I took trig last semester actually and about to start taking calc, but that still won't land me a job at Google apparently now would it?

Its not just the math. My comment was more about you being a bit late to the game. While the average age at Google is 29, that doesn't mean you get a degree at 28 years and apply to Google. Here is a link to a New York Times article from a few years back on how to get a job at Google. It's a couple of years old but still relevant. The long and short of it is in this section:

 

"For every job, though, the No. 1 thing we look for is general cognitive ability, and it’s not I.Q. It’s learning ability. It’s the ability to process on the fly. It’s the ability to pull together disparate bits of information. We assess that using structured behavioral interviews that we validate to make sure they’re predictive."

 

Is that describing you?  From your posts thus far it doesn't seem like it. Why are you so bent on Google?  Why not Apple or Amazon? Google is a good company to work for and it looks great on a resume but what are your goals there? What are your goals period. You keep avoiding that one.

 

I'm not trying to kill your 'dream' but rather trying to be more realistic. You have some irrational thinking that there is only Google. Can you get a job there? Yes, but the chances are statistically about zero. Not zero, just really near zero. Not because of any past expunged anything, but because you are one of a million others that want to work there and Google doesn't have a million job openings.  The level of people you will be competing with is phenomenal and those other candidates are not asking about their future on an internet forum. They are doing things, making things and building their brand. They're driven, determined.  Are you?  

 

You still haven't said just what a software engineer means to you. What do you think that means and why is Google the only place you can do that?

 

[adrynalyne]

2 hours ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

Well I haven't applied to any software jobs as I'm still in college. Secondly, People on Reddit basically told me that I have no chance whatsoever so idk what to believe. Thirdly I have no work experience  maybe because I have a record.

This has to be a troll thread. It HAS to be. You don’t want answers. 

[RolloofTheNorm]

5 hours ago, adrynalyne said:

This has to be a troll thread. It HAS to be. You don’t want answers. 

You can believe that all you want, but I basically came here to ask if I can be a software engineer or not. I'm not trying to or have intentions of landing a job at Google once I graduate. I do want to work for Google and plan on applying there someday. Until then all I wanted to know was whether I can be a software engineer in general no matter how big or small the company is, but as always I'm getting mixed answers.

[+JHBrown Subscriber¹]

11 minutes ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

You can believe that all you want, but I basically came here to ask if I can be a software engineer or not. 

This thread is still going I see... @RolloofTheNormyou can be anything you want to be with hard work, and dedication. You really don’t need to keep asking anyone here, or on Reddit. Pedal to the metal, work on your craft, you’ll mature through the process, and land that dream job. 

[shockz]

41 minutes ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

You can believe that all you want, but I basically came here to ask if I can be a software engineer or not. I'm not trying to or have intentions of landing a job at Google once I graduate. I do want to work for Google and plan on applying there someday. Until then all I wanted to know was whether I can be a software engineer in general no matter how big or small the company is, but as always I'm getting mixed answers.

You’re going to get mixed answers until you go out and apply. There’s nothing stopping you from becoming a software engineer. You have a clean background, you have an interest in it and assume are taking relevant courses. Start looking into internships and summer programs to establish connections/network. You’re 23 and have plenty of time move in that direction. Good luck.

[sc302 Veteran]

51 minutes ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

You can believe that all you want, but I basically came here to ask if I can be a software engineer or not. I'm not trying to or have intentions of landing a job at Google once I graduate. I do want to work for Google and plan on applying there someday. Until then all I wanted to know was whether I can be a software engineer in general no matter how big or small the company is, but as always I'm getting mixed answers.

There is no mixed answers...everyone is saying you can do it.  The only one I see saying you can't is you.  You are reading into things that do not exist in this tread or any other thread you have created (googling your user id shows the same question answered on multiple forums and boards with the same results, you can be a software engineer).  Getting into Google is going to be difficult, any large well known global company is going to be difficult due to the shear mass applying to them.  That being said, there are plenty of other companies out there that require software engineers....you need to apply and be positive.

 

I will say it again.....The only thing stopping you from becoming what you want to become is you.  Your prior convictions are not stopping you, your school or lack of school is not stopping you, your ability to read and apply yourself and have a positive outlook is stopping you.  Once you get out of your own way, you will be able to move forward.  You do not need anyone's approval to be able to move forward, that is on you.

[exotoxic]

Front line infantry.

[DevTech]

18 minutes ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

You can believe that all you want, but I basically came here to ask if I can be a software engineer or not. I'm not trying to or have intentions of landing a job at Google once I graduate. I do want to work for Google and plan on applying there someday. Until then all I wanted to know was whether I can be a software engineer in general no matter how big or small the company is, but as always I'm getting mixed answers.

 

2 minutes ago, JHBrown said:

This thread is still going I see... @RolloofTheNormyou can be anything you want to be with hard work, and dedication. You really don’t need to keep asking anyone here, or on Reddit. Pedal to the metal, work on your craft, you’ll mature through the process, and land that dream job. 

@JHBrown IMO your answer is as perfect as possible with the information available.

 

@RolloofTheNormit would be wise to consider that many good people here see your postings as some sort of trolling and give some thought to why you might make that impression in a forum where many very knowledgeable people have responded to you.

 

Your future cannot be predicted by you or anyone else. Like a Board of Directors at a company, you have to look at your marketplace, come up with a strategy and then make an ongoing series of executive decisions to make your plan work. Then adjust it as required by the experience and results you get.

 

You are very fortunate to be considering a career in a field that still judges actual ability to be more important than paper qualifications but that varies across a broad range and narrow minded companies exist in this field like any other, just a bit less than others.

 

The often overlooked downside is that the vast hours in front of a screen having a relationship with silicon digital entities that you create instead of being with human beings is an unusual talent that many people simply can't tolerate or enjoy, and then move to thriving in that environment. This is something you need to figure out before anything else. The best way to figure this out, the only way actually is to do lots of it. If you want to proceed, the next few years of your life should be centered around GitHub.com where there is a vast sea of real working source code for you to download, examine, study and run.

 

Open, a GitHub account and fork projects and compile and run them and then fix bugs and contribute back and make you own projects and give those to the world and just live inside code until you either swim in that world or else find out it is not your thing. Never go anywhere without your laptop and stop and make code everywhere all the time until it is as natural as breathing. Once you are in that headspace, specific companies like Google won't matter. Your own fascination with whatever technologies captivate your interest such as AI or UI or Web Design or IOT or Mobile or Game Design etc will drive your choices.

 

The fastest way to get to this point of enlightenment is to start doing it NOW.

 

 

[DevTech]

6 hours ago, adrynalyne said:

This has to be a troll thread. It HAS to be. You don’t want answers. 

He appears to be exhibiting a kind of anxiety that doesn't seem troll-like, but of course text typed into forums on the internet will tend to ambiguity...

 

It smells more like classic "Teachers Union Disease" where years of soul destroying school has trained people that the only way they can learn and chart a career path is through Teacher Driven Learning. That kind of system leads to false goals like "I want to work at Google and like the Teacher's Union, the masters at Google will tell me what I need to do next"

 

After years of deadening the human brain, it is hard to start with wonder, curiosity, and fascination with the incredible universe we exist in and a desire to jump in and explore like a hungry Raptor, the amazing sea of knowledge. Then he can latch onto the jewels that he discovers, the most interesting to him areas to investigate. 

 

"Google" is a stupid goal. "I want to help extend the Google Deepmind project" or "I want to help make the Google Kubernetes orchestration system that deploys to billions of servers" etc is more of an actual goal. He can't articulate that because he has been given dull minded inspiration from a very dull minded set of "educators"

 

[Shiranui]

If you really want a job at Google, just create the "next big thing" yourself and wait for them to buy you out.

You can negotiate a job as part of the deal.

[DevTech]

1 minute ago, Shiranui said:

If you really want a job at Google, just create the "next big thing" yourself and wait for them to buy you out.

You can negotiate a job as part of the deal.

In so many ways this is such a better approach than studying for their insanely stupid interview process (which hurts Google as much as the applicant and leads Google straight into the trap of mono-culture mediocrity.)

 

[astropheed Veteran]

As a software engineer I can tell you two things:

1) Your history, in this circumstance, doesn't matter.

2) Your attitude matters, and it's currently abysmal.

 

You will not be a software engineer of any noticeable merit with this self-deprecating on-my-own personality. It's a team game and you must learn from others and accept their opinions, as it can be and often is better than yours. Software engineering is a constant learning field, and you are exhibiting no characteristics of learning anything. Tons of people have told you that there are no issues, and you reply to all of them with "Yes there are". It sounds like you've accepted your own answer and it's about time to stop asking redundant questions you don't plan on processing the answers of. If it continues at this same pace I'll just lock this thread. If you're willing to learn something going forward then I'll leave it be. Up to you.

[Shiranui]

RolloofTheNorm, looking back at you posts, it seems to be that your biggest barrier to entry is, in addition to your attitude, your apparent total lack of initiative.

 

[DevTech]

45 minutes ago, astropheed said:

If it continues at this same pace I'll just lock this thread. If you're willing to learn something going forward then I'll leave it be. Up to you.

I like to permit myself the idea that all the time that all of us take to provide information in these forums creates information that eventually gets indexed by Google and could in theory help a hopeful student 2 years from now even if the current OP still has difficulty understanding the structure of human civilization.

 

So I am always disturbed when threads that still have potential to make a record of of information or act as a trigger for an idea or two, suddenly get locked for reasons that may fall in some gray zone outside the realm of utter necessity.

 

Issues have been discussed here that still benefit the Neowin Community and the Internet Community at large such as the Mythological Status of Hiring at Google, The Value of Formal Education in computing and Bewilderment in Defining Goals etc

 

 

 

[DevTech]

40 minutes ago, Shiranui said:

RolloofTheNorm, looking back at you posts, it seems to be that your biggest barrier to entry is, in addition to your attitude, your apparent total lack of initiative.

 

In addition to an unknown personal history, the OP is obviously implanted as yet another cog in vast machine of an uncaring educational system that tends to discourage ideas of Self Directed Education and it just so happens that software is a career that can't work without extensive skills in Self Directed Education.

 

Clearly the OP lacks the important specific skill of Knowing What You Don't Know and the specific process to fill that gap so he has resorted to asking in various places and hoping he can use a polling based aggregation methodology to gain an actionable sliver of "The Truth" probably based on a horrible model of "both sides have a valid viewpoint" promoted as "informative journalism" by newspapers and TV.

 

We could be more compassionate about "initiative" when we realize that lack of initiative is a collateral damage by-product of a factory-like education system where the most "valuable" (to the system) early education skill taught to kids is how to stand in orderly lines outside a classroom.

 

If the OP truley finds a passion within himself for software development, he has a long journey of self-awareness and also "civilization awareness" ahead of him and many people particularly with parents who did not attend university, don't have the family support structure to provide context, explanation and coaching.

 

[The_D0lph1n]

Wow, what a thread. I don't think the OP is a troll, mainly because I've met or heard of people who have similar anxieties about life. And I want to give some suggestions to help the OP find their way. So here it goes @RolloofTheNorm.

 

I'm 24, and I am a software engineer. As a software engineer, I don't think it's a useful question to ask if you have a chance of being a software engineer. Yes, you have a chance of being a software engineer; everyone has a chance of being a software engineer. There you go, the validation that you seek. But asking about chances isn't useful, because it makes it seem as if life is determined by the roll of the dice. Now there's definitely "luck" involved in who you meet, the connections that you make, the unexpected events that can change a life, so on and so forth, but much of it comes down to how much you put into making your dream career a reality. Since you like to think in terms of chance, consider that what you do will affect how good your chances are.

 

So I'm going to use your method of thinking and reason about how you can become a software engineer. This is a thought exercise, and not an exact formula on how to become a software engineer. Let's pretend that everybody starts off with, say, a 0.00001% chance of being a software engineer, because everyone as a child lacks the skills and knowledge to be a software engineer. But as we go through primary school and learn how to read, how to write, and how to reason, we increase our chance to maybe 5%. Now you're going to a college and learning, presumably, skills and knowledge that are relevant to software engineering. That raises your chances, maybe to 30%, because you have skills and knowledge that are needed for software engineering that others don't have. But you want to increase it further. Finding an internship helps build work experience and teaches you new skills, so a technical summer internship might raise your chance to 50%. Then another summer internship the next year might raise it to 70%. Ok, how do I raise it even further? As others have already stated, having a portfolio of independent work really helps. You go to GitHub.com, find some projects, read up on some programming tutorials, and create a fork of the project. Putting that on the resume could boost your chances to 95%, maybe even more if that project is good, because having a portfolio of independent work demonstrates that you are self-driven and interested in doing software engineering for more than just the money. Now, after having done all of that work, you have a really good chance of being a software engineer!

 

You don't need to do all of the stuff I listed above, because I didn't fork GitHub projects and I still got a good job in software engineering that I enjoy. But I went to college for electrical engineering (focusing in computer architecture) and did multiple summer internships. Even if you're still in school, apply for internships. If you're not willing to apply for an internship, how can you be willing to apply for a software engineering job? After my first year of college, I did an unpaid summer internship at an IT company, mostly removing viruses from people's laptops and fixing people's Outlook mailboxes. The next year, I did another unpaid summer internship doing Java programming for biology research. Before that internship, I never knew that computational biology existed, but doing that internship opened up new fields for me. So the next year, I got a paid internship developing a Java GUI for a molecule simulation program. And when it came time for me to look for a job, my interviewers were impressed that I had spent my college summers working on tech and software. And these internships don't have to be exactly relevant to the jobs you seek; my current job involves writing assembly code for specialized co-processors, a far cry from the Java GUIs that I wrote during my internships. But it's the experience that counts. Internships allow you to say to a prospective employer, "Look, I am willing to work hard and learn new skills."

 

And that brings us to another point: employers, particularly for young applicants fresh out of college, are looking for a good attitude and a willingness to learn. When I joined my current employer, I had to learn hundreds of new things that college never taught me, and there are thousands of things I have yet to learn. Many of my coworkers have spent decades in the industry, and they don't expect me to know every last detail about a programming language or protocol. But they do expect me to be willing to learn and tackle new challenges. That's where attitude comes into play; people don't want to work with someone who gives up at the slightest hint of difficulty, or is constantly negative.

 

So to give more practical suggestions, does your school have an IT department? Or a library? Both of those offer tech services to the school and they usually allow students to intern or work part-time. Create a LinkedIn or Indeed.com account and start looking for internships in your area. And when looking for internships, don't be afraid to apply to one where you don't fit every single one of the qualifications. The listed qualifications are simply the ideal qualifications and companies are fine if you're missing a few, as long as you meet the core requirements. I definitely didn't fit all of the qualifications for my job (things like familiarity with the PCI-Express protocol), but I met the core requirements. Again, going back to the previous paragraph, companies will have to teach you stuff anyways, so they're looking for the willingness to learn the listed things more so than knowing all about them right off the bat.

 

And regarding your concern about math, the type of math that you use depends on the field that you want to go into. If you want to do computer graphics, you need linear algebra, calculus, and advanced geometry. But if you're doing system programming, knowing your Boolean algebra, logic, and hexadecimal numbers is usually enough. That it depends on the field you're interested in brings me to my next point.

 

Ultimately, what do you want to do? Not who you want to work for, but what do you want to do as a software engineer? Do you want to work in computer graphics, devising new rendering algorithms for better visuals? Do you want to develop databases to allow people to organize information faster? Do you want to develop new communication apps to allow people to talk to friends and family who are far away? Do you want to develop videogames and provide entertainment? You don't need to start with some noble goal. I didn't become interested in computers because I wanted to do assembly programming on specialized co-processors. I first became interested because I wanted to play a game called Supreme Commander and the family laptop (an old HP Pavilion with an Athlon 64) was too weak for the job. I was 12 then, and didn't understand why my attempts to launch the game resulted in a screen that said "Your computer does not meet the minimum system requirements", so I went on the Internet and read about processors, RAM, and video cards and learned the terminology and eventually the technology. Find something that interests you first, research it, and you will find new things that you may want to explore. If you're passionate about using software engineering to do something, then becoming a software engineer comes naturally. To take your example of Google, Google doesn't hire a software engineer just because they want to work at Google. Google wants to do things like search, AI, and cloud computing. And they will hire software engineers who are interested in and want to work on search, AI, and cloud computing.

 

And don't be so set on Google, though you said in your last post that you're looking into smaller companies too. That's good, and smaller companies can often have a better work culture than the giant corporations do. Plus you can still make good money from those smaller companies. There are a lot of companies out there, and they are all looking for good talent, and willing to pay for it.

 

To close it all off, I haven't said anything that the other posters in the thread haven't already brought up. You're asking the wrong question; it's not about chance. Companies don't hire people by flipping a coin. They look for attitude and ability. And you can take steps to improve both. But if you're dead set on thinking about "chances", then I'll say this: if you're intent on browsing Reddit and Neowin asking about your chances and moping about a past offense that doesn't even appear on your record, then your chance is nearly 0. If you instead find an interest that you can explore on your own, learn about, and work on; work hard on your studies at college; and actively pursue internships (no matter how small or unrelated they seem to be), then you have a very good chance of becoming a software engineer.

[Shiranui]

2 hours ago, DevTech said:

... it just so happens that software is a career that can't work without extensive skills in Self Directed Education.

 

Clearly the OP lacks the important specific skill of Knowing What You Don't Know and the specific process to fill that gap so he has resorted to asking in various places and hoping he can use a polling based aggregation methodology to gain an actionable sliver of "The Truth" ...

Exactly! 

[FloatingFatMan]

On 6/27/2018 at 12:15 AM, RolloofTheNorm said:

You can believe that all you want, but I basically came here to ask if I can be a software engineer or not. I'm not trying to or have intentions of landing a job at Google once I graduate. I do want to work for Google and plan on applying there someday. Until then all I wanted to know was whether I can be a software engineer in general no matter how big or small the company is, but as always I'm getting mixed answers.

Steps to becoming a software engineer.

 

1.  Learn a language.

2.  Find a problem that needs a solution.

3.  Write the solution, without using other people's code (frameworks like Angular are OK).

 

Once you can do all of the above, you're a software engineer.  If you can't, find something else and move on.

[RolloofTheNorm]

I’ll just make this post quick since this thread is dead. Ever since I made this thread months ago I’ve started practicing C# not too long ago and also decided that I want to go specialize in scientific computing or data science once I start my CS degree. I also don’t view google as the end all be all anymore and in all honesty have a couple of other companies in mind. 

[adrynalyne]

25 minutes ago, RolloofTheNorm said:

I’ll just make this post quick since this thread is dead. Ever since I made this thread months ago I’ve started practicing C# not too long ago and also decided that I want to go specialize in scientific computing or data science once I start my CS degree. I also don’t view google as the end all be all anymore and in all honesty have a couple of other companies in mind. 

You’ve taken the first steps. Good job!