SpaceX Super Heavy and Starship updates

[wakjak]

hypocrisy knows no bounds, much like their favorites can do NO wrong.

[DocM]

On 25/04/2023 at 17:05, primortal said:

Tweet aside..  You criticize an unfavorable Tweet about why the launch failed that's from a photographer then post a favorable Tweet from a choreographer 🤔

 

More important is Yemi A.D. is Yemi Akinyemi Dele - a Czech performer, correspondent and artist  who is also a crew member of the dearMoon circumlunar Starship flight. He and several others, including Tim Dodd (Everyday Astronaut), joined the crew last December. He'd visited Starbase and was quoting employees he had encountered.

Are you a future Starship astronaut? Have you been to Starbase? 

Didn't think so.

[+Edouard Subscriber²]

On 26/04/2023 at 09:40, DocM said:

 

More important is Yemi A.D. is Yemi Akinyemi Dele - a Czech performer, correspondent and artist  who is also a crew member of the dearMoon circumlunar Starship flight. He and several others, including Tim Dodd (Everyday Astronaut), joined the crew last December. He'd visited Starbase and was quoting employees he had encountered.

Are you a future Starship astronaut? Have you been to Starbase? 

Didn't think so.

I feel sad for you.

[DocM]

On 25/04/2023 at 17:58, wakjak said:

hypocrisy knows no bounds, much like their favorites can do NO wrong.

 

Read my reply to primemortal, then at least try to keep up.

[IsItPluggedIn]

On 26/04/2023 at 07:05, primortal said:

Tweet aside..  You criticize an unfavorable Tweet about why the launch failed that's from a photographer then post a favorable Tweet from a choreographer 🤔

 

 

From the outside, as somebody who now dislikes Musk because of all the crazy. I find fake/misleading news worse, as the hate towards Musk increases the fakes/misleading articles about him and his companies increase exponentially.

The first tweet was misleading by implying that the FAA has a large issue with what happened and this is not standard process. Any time anything goes not as planned during a launch the FAA will ask for an investigation. So while the tweet is "true" it is highly misleading.

The tweet from Yemi is a light hearted post about what is coming next that makes him feel good. Yes it does not provide much, if any context to the previous commentary. But due to his position is somewhat related to the actual thread title.

 

Back on track, many of the issues look like they have either already been fixed or will be fixed before the next launch. The damage caused to the launch pad and surrounding facilities and the investigation is most likely going to be the determining factor on the timing of the next launch.

 

Noted Issues:

Launch Pad - TBC - Rebuild with flame diverter and water system

Hydraulics - Done - Hydraulics replaced with Electric Vector Control

Engines - Done - New engine design to resolve reliability issues + pad issues noted above

Separation issues - Unknown

 

It looks like the booster didnt make it to its required altitude for separation, im not sure if it actually tried to separate before it totally failed. It looks like it was still trying to get to the required altitude but lost vector control due to the hydraulics issue and started to tumble. The first stage engines looked to still be firing when it failed indicating that it wasn't trying to separate at they should shut down before separation.

[DocM]

On 25/04/2023 at 20:14, IsItPluggedIn said:

From the outside, as somebody who now dislikes Musk because of all the crazy. I find fake/misleading news worse, as the hate towards Musk increases the fakes/misleading articles about him and his companies increase exponentially.

 

Exactly. Herd mentalities are  annoying & not helpful.

 

On 25/04/2023 at 20:14, IsItPluggedIn said:

Noted Issues:

Launch Pad - TBC - Rebuild with flame diverter and water system

 

There is a second launch table at a KSC SpaceX factory. There are unconfirmed rumors that if the Starbase table is unrepairable the one at KSC could be barged to Starbase. 

 

On 25/04/2023 at 20:14, IsItPluggedIn said:

Hydraulics - Done - Hydraulics replaced with Electric Vector Control

Engines - Done - New engine design to resolve reliability issues + pad issues noted above

 

Yep. There have been very long Raptor 2 test fires, and tests of the electric TVC system, at McGregor.  

 

On 25/04/2023 at 20:14, IsItPluggedIn said:

Separation issues - Unknown

 

The early part of the tumble was a separation maneuver. This is similar to the slow tumble a Falcon 9 upper stage does to cause Starlink  satellites to passively separate & deploy.

 

On 25/04/2023 at 20:14, IsItPluggedIn said:

It looks like the booster didnt make it to its required altitude for separation, im not sure if it actually tried to separate before it totally failed. It looks like it was still trying to get to the required altitude but lost vector control due to the hydraulics issue and started to tumble. The first stage engines looked to still be firing when it failed indicating that it wasn't trying to separate at they should shut down before separation.

 

The separation maneuver turned into a full tumble as the booster lost enough engines that it could not steer. There's also talk the separation software has issues. That's when the autonomous flight safety system's linear charges sliced holes in the common dome between the LOX and CH4 tanks & the adjoining rings in both Booster and Ship.

 

[+Warwagon MVC]

I feel like this site is very Anti-Musk.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 25/04/2023 at 09:50, anthdci said:

I don't understand why people have to come down on one side or another, was it a complete success? No, they didn't get it to orbit and do two controlled splashdowns. Was it a complete failure? No they got the rocket clear of the pad and didn't do a full RUD taking out all of stage 0. It's a partial success, getting past Max Q is a big win, blowing a huge hole under the pad and massive dints in the fuel farm is a big negative.

They will learn from this, they now know for sure that they need something to deal with the thrust, and the launch mount will need more shielding. The confirmed the hydronic vector control system wasn't reliable so their switch to electronic for booster 9 was right. I suspect internally they know why the raptors that went out did stop firing (or never started). They know the ship lost some tiles. That's just what's obvious to me a casual spectator, they will have far more to look into that they wouldn't have known had it not been from this flight.

Learn? Suuure. Just so you know.  NASA and the Russians figured out that you need flame diverters and water deluge systems to protect the launch pad AND rocket way back in the 1950's... Using slide rules... Musk? Naaaaah... He knows better, right? Right?

 

[FloatingFatMan]

On 26/04/2023 at 00:40, DocM said:

 

More important is Yemi A.D. is Yemi Akinyemi Dele - a Czech performer, correspondent and artist  who is also a crew member of the dearMoon circumlunar Starship flight. He and several others, including Tim Dodd (Everyday Astronaut), joined the crew last December. He'd visited Starbase and was quoting employees he had encountered.

Are you a future Starship astronaut? Have you been to Starbase? 

Didn't think so.

That's not being an astronaut... That's a passenger. He has no more competence to judge than I do on open heart surgery.

[DocM]

On 26/04/2023 at 00:58, FloatingFatMan said:

That's not being an astronaut... That's a passenger. He has no more competence to judge than I do on open heart surgery.

 

He is fully competent to quote SpaceXers and what they said. Stating why he was there provided the context. 

[DocM]

On 26/04/2023 at 00:54, FloatingFatMan said:

Learn? Suuure. Just so you know.  NASA and the Russians figured out that you need flame diverters and water deluge systems to protect the launch pad AND rocket way back in the 1950's... Using slide rules... Musk? Naaaaah... He knows better, right? Right?

 

Sometimes you have to break eggs to make an omelet. 

This is the most powerful rocket ever launched by at least a factor of 2, with a record number of engines which complicates CFD*  models tremendously. They were not confident the models could accurately predict what would happen and thought they needed a baseline. Tests with fewer engines indicated that the Fondag concrete might survive a test at a low throttle setting which is what they tried. They could have installed the other equipment and then tried it, but if it failed because of the model's uncertainty they'd be right back at square one without baseline data. The difference is today they have that hard data, and sooner.

* computational fluid dynamics

[FloatingFatMan]

On 26/04/2023 at 09:44, DocM said:

 

Sometimes you have to break eggs to make an omelet. 

This is the most powerful rocket ever launched by at least a factor of 2, with a record number of engines which complicates CFD*  models tremendously. They were not confident the models could accurately predict what would happen and thought they needed a baseline. Tests with fewer engines indicated that the Fondag concrete might survive a test at a low throttle setting which is what they tried. They could have installed the other equipment and then tried it, but if it failed because of the model's uncertainty they'd be right back at square one without baseline data. The difference is today they have that hard data, and sooner.

* computational fluid dynamics

So what you're saying is that 2023 rocket engineers with their super computers and complex simulations didn't know that their launch pad would get wrecked without protection, but 1950's rocket engineers with a slide rule and a pencil, did?

Okay...

 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

On 25/04/2023 at 19:40, DocM said:

More important is Yemi A.D. is Yemi Akinyemi Dele - a Czech performer, correspondent and artist  who is also a crew member of the dearMoon circumlunar Starship flight. He and several others, including Tim Dodd (Everyday Astronaut), joined the crew last December. He'd visited Starbase and was quoting employees he had encountered.

Good for him to have a Japanese billionaire fund his tourist trip around the moon   Still doesn't negate the other Tweet just because he's a "photographer".  He could have also spoken to people at SpaceX, plus the article that I posted corroborates what the 'photographer' said.

 

On 25/04/2023 at 19:40, DocM said:

Are you a future Starship astronaut? Have you been to Starbase? 

Didn't think so.

What a childish thing to say.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Like him or not (I can't stand Elon)... you can not deny what SpaceX has accomplished throughout its relative short history.  They are launching and recovering rockets almost every day (sometimes launching two rockets in a day).  

They will figure out Starship...I have no doubt of their competence and ingenuity.  When NASA is launching a multi-billion dollar rocket (SLS), only to throw it away after each launch, SpaceX will be launching and recovering both stages of Starship.  

So, yeah... Starship blew up on its first test flight...so what?  It took out a mini van during launch...that alone should be considered a success!

Anyway, it might blow up on the second and third flight.. 🤷‍♂️.. but at least SpaceX is pushing the boundaries of a heavy lift and recoverable launch system unlike "old space" which are thrown away after each launch. 

Yeah, I don't like Elon ... but as a space enthusiast, SpaceX's record speaks for itself.  

[Astra.Xtreme]

On 26/04/2023 at 05:18, FloatingFatMan said:

So what you're saying is that 2023 rocket engineers with their super computers and complex simulations didn't know that their launch pad would get wrecked without protection, but 1950's rocket engineers with a slide rule and a pencil, did?

Okay...

 

Clearly you know nothing about engineering...  You can simulate anything you want, but you'll never know for sure until you actually try it.  Obviously they knew the risks involved, but decided to launch it anyway.  Now they know the results and boundaries and can re-engineer the pad as needed. 
That's actually a good thing...  Had they went a different route, they'd never know.  Should they have done a few more static fires?  Probably.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 26/04/2023 at 14:50, Astra.Xtreme said:

Clearly you know nothing about engineering...  You can simulate anything you want, but you'll never know for sure until you actually try it.  Obviously they knew the risks involved, but decided to launch it anyway.  Now they know the results and boundaries and can re-engineer the pad as needed. 
That's actually a good thing...  Had they went a different route, they'd never know.  Should they have done a few more static fires?  Probably.

Actually, I do know a few things about engineering.  Maybe not on a professional level, but I'm no slack jawed yokel... I also know some mathematics as well, including how to calculate the tensile strength of something and the forces it can withstand against external forces, temperatures and pressures applied to it.   Funny thing is, those guys in the 1950's knew WAAAAY more math than I do... And they did all their math on paper and without complex computer simulations to help them.  They managed to build launch platforms that could withstand the Saturn 5 easily enough... Because math is math.

That makes SpaceX either incompetent, ignorant, or wilfully destructive. Take your pick.  Or perhaps they wanted to do all that and Musk just over-ruled them so he could showboat.  He DOES love to showboat, after all... Maybe this is just another Cybertruck window demonstration?

 

[Astra.Xtreme]

On 26/04/2023 at 09:26, FloatingFatMan said:

Actually, I do know a few things about engineering.  Maybe not on a professional level, but I'm no slack jawed yokel... I also know some mathematics as well, including how to calculate the tensile strength of something and the forces it can withstand against external forces, temperatures and pressures applied to it.   Funny thing is, those guys in the 1950's knew WAAAAY more math than I do... And they did all their math on paper and without complex computer simulations to help them.  They managed to build launch platforms that could withstand the Saturn 5 easily enough... Because math is math.

That makes SpaceX either incompetent, ignorant, or wilfully destructive. Take your pick.  Or perhaps they wanted to do all that and Musk just over-ruled them so he could showboat.  He DOES love to showboat, after all... Maybe this is just another Cybertruck window demonstration?

 

If you knew anything about engineering, you wouldn't be throwing around such unrealistic criticisms about the R&D stage of something that's never been designed before...  You act like everything should go perfectly on the first try, which is laughable and ignorant.

It was a calculated risk, and several things obviously didn't go as planned.  The rocket was held down for a really long time, which blasted the hell out of everything.  They either lifted some sort of limit, or the scrub logic wasn't cautious enough.  Again, this is data and lessons they wanted to learn.  These are facts; simulations are guesses.
They absolutely knew what could happen.  Elon is a big proponent of undesigning things, so now's the time to push the boundaries.  Had the rocket left the pad better, nobody would be trash talking and throwing around speculation.  But because of the Elon-hate bandwagon and the non-perfect launch, here we are.

They blew up a lot of rockets during Falcon 9 development, so it should be no surprise to anybody that they'd go the same route with Starship.  Or they can take the Blue Origin route and do nothing exciting for years and years.

[SteveL]

I am truly baffled by this wave of criticism against Musk on this subject.  
Instead of being proud of what SpaceX is doing to radically change the landscape of space activities 
for the better, some people insist on finding reasons to attack Elon Musk even when he represents SpaceX.  

Why this attitude? Because he doesn't support our favourite political side? 
I hope not because this would be pure idiocy.

So who would you like to propose instead of him since you think is an idiot and maybe caused some 
problems to Starship/SuperHeavy development? 
Bezos with his flying phallus and his lawsuits against Nasa because he has not got a piece of the cake? 
Boeing that has been telling you for years "Starliner will fly next month"? 
Lobbies circling NASA for more money to put in that endless pit called SLS?

Let me be clear on one thing. I strongly disagree with Musk and his battles for “free speech”,
but picking on Musk because you think he has taken a bad decision on this matter is only a way to 
destroy whatever good he may have done. 

Please let SpaceX try to do their job and support them because we need that rocket.
 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

On 26/04/2023 at 11:59, SteveL said:

I am truly baffled by this wave of criticism against Musk on this subject.  
Instead of being proud of what SpaceX is doing to radically change the landscape of space activities 
for the better, some people insist on finding reasons to attack Elon Musk even when he represents SpaceX.  

The criticism goes to the fact allegedly Musk put a stop in adding:

• A flame-diverter or flame trench to redirect the blast from the booster’s engines
• A water deluge system to dump a massive amount of water around the launch tower during liftoff

I don't understand the logic in omitting something that is tried and true and has been used in rocket launches for ages.  IMHO this could have been a successful launch if those items were in place.  Was he trying to see how much damage the rocket was going to do to the launch pad and surrounding area?

Did you read the writeup I posted in the last page about what transpired?

There is also this writeup, https://www.popsci.com/technology/spacex-starship-damage/  and https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/24/spacex-starship-explosion-spread-particulate-matter-for-miles.html

No one is criticizing SpaceX, they are doing a tremendous job.

[Xenon]

On 25/04/2023 at 23:35, Warwagon said:

I feel like this site is very Anti-Musk.

It wasn't until he started his crap on twitter. Not him buying it (that was a big mistake and very entertaining to this day) . But his polices. Banning people because they are critical of him. Unbanning racists and Nazis. Labeling news organizations etc. Which musk as the owner has every right to do.  But users don't have to like it or him or his products. I personally think the guy is a genius in human resources (Just that). He knows how to pick the right people for the right job and they do amazing. As soon as he gets involved in the daily running of a business it goes to crap. 

[FloatingFatMan]

On 26/04/2023 at 16:59, SteveL said:

I am truly baffled by this wave of criticism against Musk on this subject.  
Instead of being proud of what SpaceX is doing to radically change the landscape of space activities 
for the better, some people insist on finding reasons to attack Elon Musk even when he represents SpaceX.  

Why this attitude? Because he doesn't support our favourite political side? 
I hope not because this would be pure idiocy.

So who would you like to propose instead of him since you think is an idiot and maybe caused some 
problems to Starship/SuperHeavy development? 
Bezos with his flying phallus and his lawsuits against Nasa because he has not got a piece of the cake? 
Boeing that has been telling you for years "Starliner will fly next month"? 
Lobbies circling NASA for more money to put in that endless pit called SLS?

Let me be clear on one thing. I strongly disagree with Musk and his battles for “free speech”,
but picking on Musk because you think he has taken a bad decision on this matter is only a way to 
destroy whatever good he may have done. 

Please let SpaceX try to do their job and support them because we need that rocket.
 

So we're not allowed to criticize someone who constantly makes outrageous claims, lies every single time he promotes any of his products, and lashes out at anyone that doesn't go along with him?

Yea.... No.  

The good he has done doesn't outweigh the bad, and it doesn't buy him a free pass.

You complain about Boeing and its lies about Starliner, yet you seem remarkably quiet about Musk and his lies about Falcon, Starship, solar roof tiles, full self driving, Cybertruck and so on.  According to him, we were all meant to be living in fully solar powered houses, being driven around by fully automatic cars and enjoying luxurious trips to Mars nearly a decade ago, but I don't see that many people complaining about THOSE lies...

 

[TrevorLahey]

On 27/04/2023 at 01:58, FloatingFatMan said:

So we're not allowed to criticize someone who constantly makes outrageous claims, lies every single time he promotes any of his products, and lashes out at anyone that doesn't go along with him?

This is the SpaceX thread.  Not an Elon Musk thread.

On 27/04/2023 at 01:58, FloatingFatMan said:

You complain about Boeing and its lies about Starliner, yet you seem remarkably quiet about Musk and his lies about Falcon, Starship, solar roof tiles, full self driving, Cybertruck and so on.  According to him, we were all meant to be living in fully solar powered houses, being driven around by fully automatic cars and enjoying luxurious trips to Mars nearly a decade ago, but I don't see that many people complaining about THOSE lies...

I think most of us can tell a difference between goals or aspirations and something that is promised.  It shouldn't be a problem to say those things out loud.  I'm glad somebody is.  I think a lot of us understand that things also happen and that it's a process.

[SALSN]

I can't wait for this thread to get back on topic, this sucks.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

Quote

 

The problem is that the disintegrated launch pad meant that the dirt beneath the concrete was eroded, too, throwing up large quantities of dust, which reportedly spread over several miles from the launch site. This dust can be a serious concern for nearby communities as it could potentially be harmful to human health and to the local environment.

To address this issue, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk stated that the team had previously discussed using a water-cooled steel plate to spread heat from the launch across the pad and prevent erosion of the concrete. By creating channels in a steel plate and pushing water through them, the heat from the engines could be spread out.

“In principle, that should be able to keep the steel from melting,” Metzger said.
 

The steel plate wasn’t ready for the launch, however, so SpaceX decided to go ahead without it. The engineers had assumed, based on a previous static fire test with the Starship engines at 50 percent of capacity, that the concrete pad would survive at least one launch. This miscalculation on SpaceX’s part has been criticized, with commentators speculating that Starship was pushed to test flight (for funsies) before the launch pad was ready.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/26/23699365/spacex-starship-damage-launch-pad-debris?utm_campaign=theverge&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

[+Warwagon MVC]

On 27/04/2023 at 06:31, SALSN said:

I can't wait for this thread to get back on topic, this sucks.

Agreed, Can everyone just please take their Elon Musk hate back to the The $44 billion Elon Musk show

I was actually enjoying this read.