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Replacing my server

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xendrome    5,527
1 hour ago, Mindovermaster said:

 

Linus Tech Tips is like getting your news from The Onion.

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Mindovermaster    2,395
Just now, xendrome said:

Linus Tech Tips is like getting your news from The Onion.

I agree, some of them are biased, BUT, they are good with servers...

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DevTech    1,517
2 hours ago, Jim K said:

Just going out there with the cooler discussion.  The original cooler in the OP is a fine cooler ... even under load ... and very quiet.  In might not keep the CPU as cool as an AIO (depending on brand/model) ... but it certainly isn't going to be a cause of concern for CPU temps.  One could also argue that a traditional CPU cooler helps cool the surrounding motherboard components better.

 

The main reason, IMO, in choosing an AIO is for overclocking plus ease to work around (like accessing the RAM slots).  However, I believe the NH-D9L is fairly memory slot friendly.  Noise, between the Noctua NH-D9L and an AIO is going to be minimal ... with the Noctua probably being even quieter under normal loads.  You'll also have less things to fail ... not saying that your AIO will fail ... but with a traditional cooler you just have to worry about the fan.  Whereas with an AIO you have the fans, pump and coolant.

 

I have two HTPC's with traditional coolers ... only my gaming desktop has an AIO.

 

Anyway, just my opinion.  :) 

Good description.

 

Even when air coolers "benchmark" better, the amazing ability of water coolers to just "clamp" the temperature and not vary at all is missed out. This hard to measure ability makes the water cooler a far better choice in ALL situations.

 

The one negative is that you no longer have air blowing on the high current motherboard regulators, so a fan must be aimed in that direction.

 

Also, for the quietest operation cool outside air should be the intake for the water radiators, which sometimes means reversing the fans and blowing hot air inside the case (which doesn't matter if there is a fan on the motherboard and cool air is arranged for the GPU)

 

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DevTech    1,517
3 hours ago, Jim K said:

Your original memory configuration is fine. Z390 (and the other various "mainstream" chipsets) are *only* dual channel. You do not need to populate all 4 slots at this time (plus your original config will leave room to add more if needed in the future).

 

Just a quick drive by suggestion (on the phone)

@Mindovermasteris correct here. A modern motherboard will take advantage of all 4 slots and interleave the DRAM access to increase overall throughput.

 

It is a minor boost however, and the value of empty slots to add 2 x 16 or 2 x 32 etc later on is probably worth keeping.

 

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DevTech    1,517
5 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

Fractal has good fans out of the box. I used several of them and never had an issue when I set the fan controller to low.

 

You don't want to AIO water cool that CPU? IMO, it will cool better.

 

Personally, I would do 4x 8GB RAM. It allows for data to run faster between the 4 chips versus the 2. Just my 2 cents.

 

Anyone else want to say more?

You are right. The interleave will be a perf boost. But not a lot.

 

Since it's a "server" and VMs are involved - space for more RAM is a good thing...

 

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DevTech    1,517
3 hours ago, Haggis said:

This was my thoughts  the Dockers and vm are just for me playing about. The main use of this is for storage and plex

 

I play around with aws and ansible which is not taxing really. Play with new linux distros 

Fee Dockers running all the time. Vm for me to play with but just turned on when i am playing. Anything I can do with docker rsther than a full on vm will be done in docker

The whole Xeon thing is just a matter of whatever extra perf you would get out of the extra cache and the answer is "not enough to justify the price increase"

 

The main Xeon reason is ECC RAM and again not worth it outside the world of 5-9's

 

So, the tricky VM thing these days is to properly simulate a "real" Kubernetes Cluster which has become the defacto method for deploying Docker containers.

 

The "miniKube" method is close to stupid, so you need to simulate a minimum Kube cluster of 3 computers. That's where a Dual or Quad CPU mobo would be handy but by clever core Affinity control a single CPU with a ton of cores can be a "poor man's cluster"

 

So with 3 VMs you can get a Kube control, the Etcd node and the actual 1st Node that can host a max 512 Docker containers

 

I know you are just playing around, but once you set that up right, the incredible beauty of Kubernetes is that it then scales out infinitely. In fact Google has Docker deployments with over a billion containers.

 

So it is well worth your while if you are fooling with Docker at all to make sure your new "server" makes playing with Kubernetes smooth and easy...

 

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Jim K    13,649
19 minutes ago, DevTech said:

@Mindovermasteris correct here. A modern motherboard will take advantage of all 4 slots and interleave the DRAM access to increase overall throughput.

 

It is a minor boost however, and the value of empty slots to add 2 x 16 or 2 x 32 etc later on is probably worth keeping.

 

I mean .. not really.  You possibly will see increased numbers on synthetic benchmarks ... but real world use (Plex, VM, everyday-usage, etc.) you aren't going to know the difference.  The performance "hit" certainly isn't worth sacrificing all memory slots.

 

Do you have any real world benchmarks to show otherwise?

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DevTech    1,517
7 hours ago, Haggis said:

Decent Powered PSU as may add a GPU later for hardware transcoding in Plex

Another growing huge trend is exposing GPUs to Docker Containers for parallel GPU computing

 

The NVIDIA RTX series is designed for that.(amoung other design objectives of course)

 

Just now, Jim K said:

I mean .. not really.  You possibly will see increased numbers on synthetic benchmarks ... but real world use (Plex, VM, everyday-usage, etc.) you aren't going to know the difference.  The performance "hit" certainly isn't worth sacrificing all memory slots.

 

Do you have any real world benchmarks to show otherwise?

You have just applied different words to exactly what I said!

 

"It is a minor boost however, and the value of empty slots to add 2 x 16 or 2 x 32 etc later on is probably worth keeping"

 

I agree with you completely!

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Haggis    1,008

Ok so after doing more reading etc last night ( i am glad i started this thread its been very helpful)

 

I have limited the coolers down to three in the same sort of price range

 

Both have good reviews and user reviews

 

BE QUIET Dark Rock Pro 4 - £67.77

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07BY6F8D9/?coliid=I2Y4R7504TYWA3&colid=1TPACZGE9ZPCJ&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

 

Noctua NH-D15S - £68.95

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Noctua-nh-d15s-Processor-2011-V3-300-RPM/dp/B00Y7928CS/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=noctua+d15s&qid=1556695389&s=computers&sr=1-2

 

Corsair Hydro H100 x 240 mm Radiator Dual 120 mm PWM Fans Liquid CPU Cooler - £72.09

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Hydro-Radiator-Liquid-Cooler/dp/B07B68T46Q/ref=sr_1_21?crid=8PZWEGX6AHZ5&keywords=noctua+nh-d15&qid=1556694407&s=computers&sprefix=noctua%2Ccomputers%2C149&sr=1-21

 

In regards to the Water Cooling one these are my dimensions

 

PSU 15 x 14 x 8.6 cm

H100 15 x 22 x 31 cm

 

Case

Water cooling compatibility

Front – 360, 280, 240, 140 and 120 mm radiators of all thicknesses (requires removal of drive bays)

Top – 420, 360, 280, 240, 140 and 120 mm radiators. (A thickness limitation of 55mm for both radiator + fan applies on 420, 280 and 140 mm radiators) (420 and 360 mm radiators require removal of the ODD bay)

Bottom – 120 or 240 mm radiator (Use of radiators in the bottom position limits the PSU length to 165 mm)

Rear – 120 or 140 mm radiator

 

Now the case will be sitting on its side where it is so all top, bottom, rear and side fan locations are available

 

So what i am thinking is

 

Air Cooled Cooler

2 Fans on Front of the case pulling cold air in

The CPU cooler

2 Fans on rear of case pulling hot ait out

 

 

Water Cooled

the H100 Radiator on the botton of the Case (which as the case is on its side will be on its side open to the air) (also PSU is less than 165mm in length)

Two fans on front, pulling cold air i and two on back pulling hot air out

 

 

Does that make sense?

 

 

 

 

The main things that put me off water cooling is, i read a lot about pumps failing or tubes leaking, the fans are double the noise of the two air coolers

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Haggis    1,008

So i have settled on the following

 

Noctua NH-D15S - £68.95

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Noctua-nh-d15s-Processor-2011-V3-300-RPM/dp/B00Y7928CS/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=noctua+d15s&qid=1556695389&s=computers&sr=1-2

 

It has the option of adding an extra fan too if i wanted to

 

So the build now looks like this

 

 

CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700 3.2 GHz 6-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Noctua - NH-D15S 82.52 CFM CPU Cooler
Motherboard: ASRock - Z390 Extreme4 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Case: Fractal Design - Define R5 Blackout Edition ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair - TXM Gold 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply


 

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Jim K    13,649

I honestly can't think of anything to change (it would just nitpicking). The cooler is compatible with your config, the memory and CPU check out.  Your config should meet/exceed your usage requirements.

 

I think you're good.

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+Human.Online    8,542
18 hours ago, Brandon H said:

most closed circuit coolers you never have to touch once installed and work great and quiet

Latest LTT suggests that Noctua coolers can run cooler and quieter than AIO liquid.

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DevTech    1,517
1 hour ago, Haggis said:

So i have settled on the following

 

Noctua NH-D15S - £68.95

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Noctua-nh-d15s-Processor-2011-V3-300-RPM/dp/B00Y7928CS/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=noctua+d15s&qid=1556695389&s=computers&sr=1-2

 

It has the option of adding an extra fan too if i wanted to

 

So the build now looks like this

 

 


CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700 3.2 GHz 6-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Noctua - NH-D15S 82.52 CFM CPU Cooler
Motherboard: ASRock - Z390 Extreme4 ATX LGA1151 Motherboard
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Case: Fractal Design - Define R5 Blackout Edition ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: Corsair - TXM Gold 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply


 

1. I would suggest a lot more CPU cores somehow or the option to get move via an empty CPU socket. For servers more cores are far more useful than more Ghz

 

2. Speed and latency of RAM is simply not critical so it might be possible to investigate cheaper RAM to free up budget for cores etc.

 

3. I would strongly suggest a better PSU that contains either SuperFlower or Seasonic internals.

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shockz    5,969
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DevTech said:

1. I would suggest a lot more CPU cores somehow or the option to get move via an empty CPU socket. For servers more cores are far more useful than more Ghz

 

2. Speed and latency of RAM is simply not critical so it might be possible to investigate cheaper RAM to free up budget for cores etc.

 

3. I would strongly suggest a better PSU that contains either SuperFlower or Seasonic internals.

Disagree on all of that, except #2. Their specs are fine.

 

----

 

I'm in the process of moving toward containers on my setup, however as it stands:

 

Home Server Setup: Firewall/pfSense VM, File Server, Web Server, VPN/Project Server, Windows 10 VM. My 6 core i5-8400 barely breaks a sweat, and I'm never wondering why, or regretting only getting an i5 six core proc.

 

Before last year I was running everything below on an intel i5 nuc (skylake). Only reason I upgraded was because I wanted quad nics, which resulted in a new build.

 

I need to bump up my RAM though to 32GB. Limiting some projects.

 

141.PNG

1311.PNG

Edited by shockz

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DevTech    1,517

How to find out which PSU OEM Brand and Model is being used by the major PSU "re-packagers" such as Corsair and EVGA:

 

http://www.orionpsudb.com/corsair

 

http://www.orionpsudb.com/evga

 

The best PSU are made by SuperFlower and Seasonic so you just need to scan down the list to find out which model line in Corsair or EVGA is using the "good stuff"

 

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Mindovermaster    2,395
2 minutes ago, DevTech said:

How to find out which PSU OEM Brand and Model is being used by the major PSU "re-packagers" such as Corsair and EVGA:

 

http://www.orionpsudb.com/corsair

 

http://www.orionpsudb.com/evga

 

The best PSU are made by SuperFlower and Seasonic so you just need to scan down the list to find out which model line in Corsair or EVGA is using the "good stuff"

 

Who says he needs the greatest PSU?

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DevTech    1,517
8 minutes ago, shockz said:

Disagree on all of that, except #2. Their specs are fine.

 

----

 

I'm in the process of moving toward containers on my setup, however as it stands:

 

Home Server Setup: Firewall/pfSense VM, File Server, Web Server, VPN/Project Server, Windows 10 VM. My 6 core i5-8400 barely breaks a sweat.

 

I need to bump up my RAM though to 32GB. Limiting some projects.

 

141.PNG

1311.PNG

#1 - EVERYTHING Docker is moving to Kubernetes and IMHO a proper Kubernetes simulation needs more dedicated cores. So you have discovered you need more RAM and that was very predictable! Eventually you will go with the rest of humanity and adopt Kubernetes and then you will discover a new very predictable expansion need...

 

#3 - That Corsair model uses a Chanel Well PSU which is not in the same league as a Super Flower. Why not get decent stuff once you know the difference. The cost differential is minimal...

 

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DevTech    1,517
2 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Who says he needs the greatest PSU?

Due Diligence.

 

We cannot look at somebody's specs and then refuse to point out the obvious. What he then does with the information is his business.

 

Corsair makes a larger profit when they borrow on their reputation to source a lessor PSU. The cost differential to get a better PSU is not much and could easily be recouped by getting one with a Bronze rating perhaps.

 

The Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum ratings are not that important compared to the BASIC quality of PSU design.

 

The actual percentage of Voltage Regulation requirement that is super critical happens in the PSU of the Motherboard and you control that by examining the PSU specs on the Motherboard where companies like ASUS list the number of phases on-board which corresponds to the Power Regulator circuits...

 

 

 

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+Human.Online    8,542
7 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Who says he needs the greatest PSU?

Nobody has said "he needs the greatest PSU" but on a server, thus powered 24/7 I would at least go with a reputable company.

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Mindovermaster    2,395
3 minutes ago, Human.Online said:

Nobody has said "he needs the greatest PSU" but on a server, thus powered 24/7 I would at least go with a reputable company.

The way Dev is saying it, it sounds that way...

  • Facepalm 1

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+Human.Online    8,542
1 minute ago, Mindovermaster said:

The way Dev is saying it, it sounds that way...

You are reading it very differently to how I am reading it...

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DevTech    1,517
15 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Who says he needs the greatest PSU?

To expand a bit, Chanel Well does not make horrible supplies. So it is not the end of the world if he had already bought a Chanel Well, but scanning down the Corsair list yields the AX760 and Ax860 which use Seasonic, a nice improvement!

 

Looking at the EVGA list shows far more opportunities to get an equal cost footprint Super Flower or Seasonic. So EVGA is probably making a little less profit than Coarsair and delivering much more value to the consumer with more premium quality options for the same price as what is still a high quality option with Corsair 

 

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DevTech    1,517
15 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

The way Dev is saying it, it sounds that way...

Take a deep breath, young grasshopper...

 

Power Supplies are very tricky and represent a strong need for Analog knowledge mixed into a Digital world.

 

The internet is a vast array of information noise and it is hard to sort it out, and it helps to build up a collection of useful "indicators" that hint at the quality of the information source.

 

So for Power Supplies, whenever you hear statements like Corsair or EVGA or "well known brand" from anyone that says that line has a good reputation etc, a little red flag goes up and you know right away they don't know what they are talking about.

 

All those brands just re-package the REAL PSU units from various sources and the quality varies a lot depending on the OEM source. The better re-packagers like Corsair and EVGA don't change OEMs midstream for a particular model line so you have the advantage of being able to dig down and find out what you are getting when you part with your hard earned money!

 

If you poke around in this website, you will get an idea of the wide variety of OEMs that get sourced. http://www.orionpsudb.com

 

Armed with a little knowledge, you can then buy a MUCH BETTER power supply for the SAME MONEY and what can be bad about that?

 

Also, when you look at people that review Power Supplies check their Test Equipment:

 

"The latter one had a particularly good reviewer whose knowledge, equipment (including a very expensive Chroma 8000 loader), and testing methodology rivalled even the best PSU websites" http://www.orionpsudb.com/news/experienced-reviewer-from-expreview-starts-his-own-website

 

 

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Mindovermaster    2,395
3 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Take a deep breath, young grasshopper...

 

😛

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Brandon H    3,113
1 hour ago, Human.Online said:

Latest LTT suggests that Noctua coolers can run cooler and quieter than AIO liquid.

good to know. I just have a basic fan in my PC currently as I'm a bit restricted with a low-profile case. Will definitely think about going Noctua for my eventual upgrade though :)

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