Favourite programming language?

[Software Dev Expert]

Just curious.

I don’t mind anything but I stay away from assembly! Horrid documentation ! 

[adrynalyne]

On 04/02/2023 at 14:13, Software Dev Expert said:

Currently there’s around 3-5 members online at a time. How many were there in your time?

50-100+.

[Software Dev Expert]

On 04/02/2023 at 21:14, adrynalyne said:

50-100+.

Woah, that’s a lot! But tbf that downward trend was faced by many forums. Only a very few forums survived that. I do find that most of the ones with more lax/consistent moderation have survived most.

 

That close-knit community can cause a certain moderation style that can be challenging. Some kind of cronyism.

[astropheed Veteran]

On 05/02/2023 at 04:53, adrynalyne said:

one actually messaged me and told me to sod off

Could be worse, one strongly asserted that I was a zionist propagandist with malevolent intent, hellbent on converting Neowin into, presumably, some sort of SJW warmachine and they and their comrades were going to smear campaign me across the entire internet in some blaze of glory. Sadly, it never came to fruition as I'd have enjoyed the outcome of them finding out that I am, in fact, a boring old nothingburger. He wrote a few blog posts about me I suppose that was something. Was fun.

Needless to say, mods deal with ###### sometimes.

[Max Norris]

On 05/02/2023 at 04:35, astropheed said:

I am, in fact, a boring old nothingburger.

I was today years old when I first heard the word "nothingburger" and immediately had to add it to my vocabulary. 

[Software Dev Expert]

On 05/02/2023 at 09:35, astropheed said:

Could be worse, one strongly asserted that I was a zionist propagandist with malevolent intent, hellbent on converting Neowin into, presumably, some sort of SJW warmachine and they and their comrades were going to smear campaign me across the entire internet in some blaze of glory. Sadly, it never came to fruition as I'd have enjoyed the outcome of them finding out that I am, in fact, a boring old nothingburger. He wrote a few blog posts about me I suppose that was something. Was fun.

Needless to say, mods deal with ###### sometimes.

You gotta be thick-skinned to be a moderator.

 

I always found the practice of issuing warnings/bans for an insulting PM to a moderator puerile. If a jive was posted on the public forums then I’d understand because it causes disruption. Whereas a PM can be ignored.

Just my 2 cents

 

Anyways apologies for derailing my OWN thread 😂

Out of interest are you all software devs, and what level of experience are you at?

[Max Norris]

On 05/02/2023 at 18:31, Software Dev Expert said:

Out of interest are you all software devs, and what level of experience are you at?

Old school hacker from when it wasn't a dirty word, although I did experiment with various colored boxes for giggles when that was a thing.  Picked up coding when I was a kid in the 70s on a TRS80 Model 1 and later 3 and 16, IBM System 3. Weaned on Microsoft Xenix (before that turned into a circus) and OS9 back in the day, used to run a Fidonet node and had fun with Gopher before that new fangled interwebs thing came around. Couldn't really say I'm a master at anything, would say jack of most trades, my big thing would be back-end services/servers, that's what I've mostly worked on since forever.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

On 05/02/2023 at 23:31, Software Dev Expert said:

Out of interest are you all software devs, and what level of experience are you at?

Started programming in BASIC on an Amatrad CPC464 back when I was 6 years old (1984). Completed a ridiculously beneficial computing degree at university, been a dev ever since - sometimes flirting with titles that include the words “architect” and so on. Currently a development manager because hey - let’s remove me from what I’m damned good at, right?

[astropheed Veteran]

On 06/02/2023 at 10:31, Software Dev Expert said:

Out of interest are you all software devs, and what level of experience are you at?

I am, senior level. Slowly getting out of code now and more into creating solutions / managing projects.

[Software Dev Expert]

On 06/02/2023 at 08:20, Dick Montage said:

Started programming in BASIC on an Amatrad CPC464 back when I was 6 years old (1984). Completed a ridiculously beneficial computing degree at university, been a dev ever since - sometimes flirting with titles that include the words “architect” and so on. Currently a development manager because hey - let’s remove me from what I’m damned good at, right?

What does being a developmental management entail ? What’z the size of your team?

On 06/02/2023 at 12:55, astropheed said:

I am, senior level. Slowly getting out of code now and more into creating solutions / managing projects.

That’s never how I understood a senior software dev! As far as I’m concerned, a senior dev still works on code but in addition also manages DevOps and has a tendency to contribute more ideas as they’ve formed opinions over the years..

 

However perhaps this is because I’ve only ever worked in small teams? 

 

 

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

On 06/02/2023 at 17:57, Software Dev Expert said:

What does being a developmental management entail ?

I manage development:

• Projects
• Deadlines
• Infrastructure provisioning
• Resource allocation
• Best practices
• Code reviews
• The team and their day to day needs
• Annual reviews
• The liaison between development and the larger IT department (~30) as well as the firm (~1500)
• Outsourced resource and knowledge provisioning

Alongside this, I also still develop, in languages ranging from classic ASP and VB6 (for about the next 8 months then no more) through T-SQL, PowerShell, PHP, JavaScript and others.  I create Azure functions and provision their availability to 3rd parties.  I also have oversight and final-say on the architecture used and the direction we take.

On 06/02/2023 at 17:57, Software Dev Expert said:

What’z the size of your team?

It varies.  Currently 3 + me (2 devs, a DBA and myself) but we are also consuming external resource on a few niche projects.  However, it may well grow by 2 people in the next year, and for almost 9 months it was just myself and a dev (recruitment was VERY hard just after the Covid situation).

On 06/02/2023 at 17:57, Software Dev Expert said:

As far as I’m concerned, a senior dev still works on code but in addition also manages DevOps and has a tendency to contribute more ideas as they’ve formed opinions over the years..

Depends upon the size and ambitions of the company.  Essentially a "dev" can only go so far before they reach their ceiling - then your choices are to either go into management (either of projects/people), change management (this is BIG right now, a buzzword in the industry that pays well) or solutions architecture... or a mix of some of the above.  A senior dev can often not touch code, they are no longer "developing code" they are "developing solutions" and leave the typing to someone who returns a better ROI on that, allowing them to return their ROI on the bigger picture stuff.

[astropheed Veteran]

On 07/02/2023 at 07:06, Dick Montage said:

A senior dev can often not touch code, they are no longer "developing code" they are "developing solutions" and leave the typing to someone who returns a better ROI on that, allowing them to return their ROI on the bigger picture stuff.

Pretty much exactly this.

[adrynalyne]

On 06/02/2023 at 13:06, Dick Montage said:

I manage development:

• Projects
• Deadlines
• Infrastructure provisioning
• Resource allocation
• Best practices
• Code reviews
• The team and their day to day needs
• Annual reviews
• The liaison between development and the larger IT department (~30) as well as the firm (~1500)
• Outsourced resource and knowledge provisioning

Alongside this, I also still develop, in languages ranging from classic ASP and VB6 (for about the next 8 months then no more) through T-SQL, PowerShell, PHP, JavaScript and others.  I create Azure functions and provision their availability to 3rd parties.  I also have oversight and final-say on the architecture used and the direction we take.

It varies.  Currently 3 + me (2 devs, a DBA and myself) but we are also consuming external resource on a few niche projects.  However, it may well grow by 2 people in the next year, and for almost 9 months it was just myself and a dev (recruitment was VERY hard just after the Covid situation).

Depends upon the size and ambitions of the company.  Essentially a "dev" can only go so far before they reach their ceiling - then your choices are to either go into management (either of projects/people), change management (this is BIG right now, a buzzword in the industry that pays well) or solutions architecture... or a mix of some of the above.  A senior dev can often not touch code, they are no longer "developing code" they are "developing solutions" and leave the typing to someone who returns a better ROI on that, allowing them to return their ROI on the bigger picture stuff.

Your job sounds a lot like mine, just with different technologies. 

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

On 07/02/2023 at 03:36, adrynalyne said:

Your job sounds a lot like mine, just with different technologies. 

I ###### and moan 24/7 but truth is that I love it!

[adrynalyne]

On 07/02/2023 at 03:23, Dick Montage said:

I ###### and moan 24/7 but truth is that I love it!

I hear ya there. 🙂

[Arceles]

I do not intent to say contrarywise to other seniors here but I'm senior myself and I code. However, with me also comes integrating full autosar solutions which require a lot of investigation more than coding.

[Software Dev Expert]

On 06/02/2023 at 20:06, Dick Montage said:

I manage development:

• Projects
• Deadlines
• Infrastructure provisioning
• Resource allocation
• Best practices
• Code reviews
• The team and their day to day needs
• Annual reviews
• The liaison between development and the larger IT department (~30) as well as the firm (~1500)
• Outsourced resource and knowledge provisioning

Alongside this, I also still develop, in languages ranging from classic ASP and VB6 (for about the next 8 months then no more) through T-SQL, PowerShell, PHP, JavaScript and others.  I create Azure functions and provision their availability to 3rd parties.  I also have oversight and final-say on the architecture used and the direction we take.

It varies.  Currently 3 + me (2 devs, a DBA and myself) but we are also consuming external resource on a few niche projects.  However, it may well grow by 2 people in the next year, and for almost 9 months it was just myself and a dev (recruitment was VERY hard just after the Covid situation).

Depends upon the size and ambitions of the company.  Essentially a "dev" can only go so far before they reach their ceiling - then your choices are to either go into management (either of projects/people), change management (this is BIG right now, a buzzword in the industry that pays well) or solutions architecture... or a mix of some of the above.  A senior dev can often not touch code, they are no longer "developing code" they are "developing solutions" and leave the typing to someone who returns a better ROI on that, allowing them to return their ROI on the bigger picture stuff.

How did you find the transition from software dev to management? What do you enjoy more, what’s there to like, find easy, hate and find challenging about your role? Do you prefer coding or the management side of things? How would you compare being a dev manager to being a lead developer, and what’s your advice on career progression?

Yeah it’s true, very easy to hit the ceiling as a software dev. Too many companies advertise senior devs but don’t seem be willing to pay much more than they would a mid-level dev. But that also depends on the type of software dev you are. If you work in a bank especially if you are a quant dev (and I see hedge funds pay even more) you’re talking an annual salary of hundreds of thousands.

 

Unfortunately from what I’ve read, making the move from something like a web developer to a quant dev is difficult. 

 

The salary ceiling is also higher for contractors than permanent employees as a general rule so that’s another option if you’re willing to compromise on annual leave. However, there are some high growth startups willing to invest in great salaries in their devs. But there aren’t many SUPER SUPER high paying positions so I imagine the competition for those roles would be fierce! 

[Software Dev Expert]

On 07/02/2023 at 13:45, Arceles said:

I do not intent to say contrarywise to other seniors here but I'm senior myself and I code. However, with me also comes integrating full autosar solutions which require a lot of investigation more than coding.

I mean I suppose that coding often but not always involves investigative work, yeah?

 

I gain so much satisfaction when I’m assigned a task outside my routine tasks and successfully complete the task by doing investigative work - no better feeling than feeling you’re a great detective and you’ve learnt something new! It’s also more fun because it’s like a puzzle and I love puzzles !

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

On 07/02/2023 at 21:22, Software Dev Expert said:

How did you find the transition from software dev to management? What do you enjoy more, what’s there to like, find easy, hate and find challenging about your role?

I hate the management side, it doesn’t come naturally to me at all and I feel like an utter fraud. When I get that feeling I jump back into code because psychologically it gives me a challenge I know I can win.

But the situation was that this was (within my firm and at the time) the only route forward. I am looking at ways I can now reshape that and position myself as a solutions architect and be more advisory and still hands on. I enjoy the people management side of things too - never used to be a “people person” but have become one. I think my biggest shock was when general feedback after interviewing many candidates was that people seemed to want to work for me - which was very flattering cos I think I’m a proper ######…

I guess I like the level of responsibility and ownership though; the trust that is placed in me, but also the decision making to say “You know what, I’m gonna spend a day doing (whatever) so I can evaluate some languages and drive some direction for the next few years”.

[Matthew S.]

From our interactions here on Neowin @Dick Montage I can say I wouldn't mind working for you, you actually seem to be a down to earth guy and tell it like it is without sugar coating ###### and you seem to treat everyone as equals.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

On 07/02/2023 at 23:21, Matthew S. said:

From our interactions here on Neowin @Dick Montage I can say I wouldn't mind working for you, you actually seem to be a down to earth guy and tell it like it is without sugar coating ###### and you seem to treat everyone as equals.

Simp

But cheers. I personally do call it “as I see it” (I hate the phrase “I say it as it is” cos it’s not, it’s how you see it). And yeah, people are equal, I talk down to people and look up to people equally so at different times - but I don’t hold grudges at all, I love helping people. Mentoring is a joy!

[Software Dev Expert]

On 08/02/2023 at 10:34, Dick Montage said:

Simp

But cheers. I personally do call it “as I see it” (I hate the phrase “I say it as it is” cos it’s not, it’s how you see it). And yeah, people are equal, I talk down to people and look up to people equally so at different times - but I don’t hold grudges at all, I love helping people. Mentoring is a joy!

Such a good trait to have! I wish senior devs wouldn’t get so offended when told by someone more junior that they’re wrong!

On 07/02/2023 at 22:54, Dick Montage said:

I hate the management side, it doesn’t come naturally to me at all and I feel like an utter fraud. When I get that feeling I jump back into code because psychologically it gives me a challenge I know I can win.

But the situation was that this was (within my firm and at the time) the only route forward. I am looking at ways I can now reshape that and position myself as a solutions architect and be more advisory and still hands on. I enjoy the people management side of things too - never used to be a “people person” but have become one. I think my biggest shock was when general feedback after interviewing many candidates was that people seemed to want to work for me - which was very flattering cos I think I’m a proper ######…

I guess I like the level of responsibility and ownership though; the trust that is placed in me, but also the decision making to say “You know what, I’m gonna spend a day doing (whatever) so I can evaluate some languages and drive some direction for the next few years”.

Do you have any career advice from what you’ve seen on how to transition from being a software dev to a more senior one and then a software architect/lead dev?

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

On 08/02/2023 at 10:36, Software Dev Expert said:

Such a good trait to have! I wish senior devs wouldn’t get so offended when told by someone more junior that they’re wrong!

Ego holds no value.  I have had devs that I pay more than myself, because they had more niche, demanded skills.  And I often ask my guys "Hey I was thinking _________, what do you reckon, where is this going wrong?"

On 08/02/2023 at 10:36, Software Dev Expert said:

Do you have any career advice from what you’ve seen on how to transition from being a software dev to a more senior one and then a software architect/lead dev?

Don't focus on code.  Look at the bigger picture, the direction of the  company, where they want to be, what they want to achieve, what the key drivers are - consider not only the cost, but the debt it accrues - technically and emotionally - seriously, it's a valid consideration, are you going to upset the wrong people with decision making.  Think about problems and solutions - not code.

[Software Dev Expert]

On 08/02/2023 at 20:43, Dick Montage said:

Ego holds no value.  I have had devs that I pay more than myself, because they had more niche, demanded skills.  And I often ask my guys "Hey I was thinking _________, what do you reckon, where is this going wrong?"

Don't focus on code.  Look at the bigger picture, the direction of the  company, where they want to be, what they want to achieve, what the key drivers are - consider not only the cost, but the debt it accrues - technically and emotionally - seriously, it's a valid consideration, are you going to upset the wrong people with decision making.  Think about problems and solutions - not code.

 

Thanks, great response. I feel I’m already considering technical debt vs time and presenting arguments to my manager/team.

 

I think it’s quite hard to gain exposure to the business side of things in an established company. What’s the best way to do this? I always try to chat to my work colleague about what he’s working on, however he’s very much the sort of person who prefers to work solo, gets neck deep into tech problems and considers chit-chat a waste of time. For me I like to know these kind of details in order to gain insights on how I could possibly add more value to the company. Whereas I get the impression that he’s the kind of person who thinks everyone should stick to their own job role and not worry about what others are doing (yeah I know, politics, maybe he sees who gets more responsibility as competition). This sort of challenge is even harder to overcome in a filly remote team. 

 

Do you work remotely? How large is your team?

@Arceleshow did you progress to becoming a senior software developer? What type of responsibilities do you have and have you volunteered for? Quite importantly, what’s the size of your team?

 

I know I know, thanks for replying in your spare time and of course this is not a job interview

[astropheed Veteran]

On 09/02/2023 at 07:43, Dick Montage said:

Look at the bigger picture, the direction of the  company, where they want to be, what they want to achieve, what the key drivers are

This is the most useful device for any jr-sr dev. You can code better if you know why. You'll give importance to aspects that you may otherwise deem unimportant. It also looks good to people like me when you're playing apart in the whole instead of just rocking up, coding whatever you thought was most important, and leaving. I'd rather a dev work 1 hour on what I say is important than 8 hours on what they think is important.

[freedonX]

C is still alive??
Learned it 20 years ago in collegue..loved it! Then I started leearning OOP (C++). Man, it was like knowing a new religion and telling you your current religion (C) was a fraud. Just couldn't do squat on OOP.
Thought C was so called behind. With all web and modern systems.

Did have 1 course on Assembly...oh yeah lots of fun!!!   /s

Never was into code anyways in my professional career