Favourite programming language?

[Software Dev Expert]

Just curious.

I don’t mind anything but I stay away from assembly! Horrid documentation ! 

[adrynalyne]

  On 09/02/2023 at 02:53, freedonX said:

C is still alive??
Learned it 20 years ago in collegue..loved it! Then I started leearning OOP (C++). Man, it was like knowing a new religion and telling you your current religion (C) was a fraud. Just couldn't do squat on OOP.
Thought C was so called behind. With all web and modern systems.

Did have 1 course on Assembly...oh yeah lots of fun!!!   /s

Never was into code anyways in my professional career

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Very much so. Guess what the Linux kernel is written in?

[Arceles]

  On 09/02/2023 at 02:53, freedonX said:

C is still alive??
Learned it 20 years ago in collegue..loved it! Then I started leearning OOP (C++). Man, it was like knowing a new religion and telling you your current religion (C) was a fraud. Just couldn't do squat on OOP.
Thought C was so called behind. With all web and modern systems.

Did have 1 course on Assembly...oh yeah lots of fun!!!   /s

Never was into code anyways in my professional career

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Every single important embedded device is, inmost probability, coded in C.

[Matthew S.]

  On 09/02/2023 at 02:53, freedonX said:

C is still alive??
Learned it 20 years ago in collegue..loved it! Then I started leearning OOP (C++). Man, it was like knowing a new religion and telling you your current religion (C) was a fraud. Just couldn't do squat on OOP.
Thought C was so called behind. With all web and modern systems.

Did have 1 course on Assembly...oh yeah lots of fun!!!   /s

Never was into code anyways in my professional career

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Current version of C is C17, C23 is in preview. C++'s current version is C++20 with C++23 in preview.

 

Lower level languages like C and C++ still have their uses and modern features do get added without breaking ABI, most of the time...

[Software Dev Expert]

  On 09/02/2023 at 06:44, Arceles said:

Every single important embedded device is, inmost probability, coded in C.

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Yeah I’ve seen a lot of job postings for embedded software devs requiring C++ skills

[freedonX]

Wonder then, if C/C++ will take the road of Cobol. 
15-20 years ago all the senior cobol coders were already dead, hard to find fresh meat.

[Arceles]

  On 09/02/2023 at 17:39, freedonX said:

Wonder then, if C/C++ will take the road of Cobol. 
15-20 years ago all the senior cobol coders were already dead, hard to find fresh meat.

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Do not think so. C is the most efficient languaje besides assembler, and the thing with embedded devices is the lack of resources, hence the pursuit for eficiency.

[Matthew S.]

  On 09/02/2023 at 17:39, freedonX said:

Wonder then, if C/C++ will take the road of Cobol. 
15-20 years ago all the senior cobol coders were already dead, hard to find fresh meat.

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That will likely never happen, WindowsNT (the Kernel not the OS, though most of the OS is still written in C++ too), XNU (macOS, iOS, iPadOS, watchOS, tvOS kernel) & BSD are all written in a mix of Assembler, C and C++,  Linux is written in C and Assembler (Linus refuses to let C++ into the kernel).

Most game engines are still written in C/C++ as well for efficiency.  

The problem with other programming technologies is their runtimes tend to be massive, and some of them wont even work without their runtimes and add to an applications size, especially when libraries are staticly linked, Kernels (especially on x86 based platforms) have a limited amount of space that can be used.  Kernels tend to either A) implement their own small language runtime or B) run a stripped down version of C/C++ without the runtime (loosing a few of the language features in the process but still usable).

[Arceles]

  On 09/02/2023 at 17:49, Matthew S. said:

That will likely never happen, WindowsNT (the Kernel not the OS, though most of the OS is still written in C++ too), XNU (macOS, iOS, iPadOS, watchOS, tvOS kernel) & BSD are all written in a mix of Assembler, C and C++,  Linux is written in C and Assembler (Linus refuses to let C++ into the kernel).

Most game engines are still written in C/C++ as well for efficiency.  

The problem with other programming technologies is their runtimes tend to be massive, and some of them wont even work without their runtimes and add to an applications size, especially when libraries are staticly linked, Kernels (especially on x86 based platforms) have a limited amount of space that can be used.  Kernels tend to either A) implement their own small language runtime or B) run a stripped down version of C/C++ without the runtime (loosing a few of the language features in the process but still usable).

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There is also another thing, portability. C can adapt pretty much to any hardware, provided you have some sort of wrapper for each and one of the low level instructions used for that specific device.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

So I have a junior dev in my team, he has a basic handle on PHP but… very basic.

I spent a couple of hours writing a task for him to complete. A basic “who is in the team” web app, you know - add users, remove users, update users. I expanded it so that later parts can be added such as “lookup the users photo from an API using AJAX”.

I then broke this down into essentially 20 small steps. When complete he will have had hands-on experience with PHP, JavaScript (jQuery), HTML, CSS, Bootstrap, AJAX, APIs, SQL (tables, views, stored procedures)…  As a precursor I took him through a very quick hour long intro to OOP also.  I know this stuff is very basic but… I know he has ability to be a good dev, can tell from the way he solves problems - and I really enjoy mentoring, so I’ll be very pleased when he completes it. So will he be cos I gave him a £2000 incentive to get it done. I’ve given him about 2 weeks, which seems fair to me and will be on-call for him to assist/steer.

[Squirrelington]

C#

C

C++

Perl

 

Would like to learn Rust and get better at C and C++ one day.

[Software Dev Expert]

  On 09/02/2023 at 23:54, Dick Montage said:

So I have a junior dev in my team, he has a basic handle on PHP but… very basic.

I spent a couple of hours writing a task for him to complete. A basic “who is in the team” web app, you know - add users, remove users, update users. I expanded it so that later parts can be added such as “lookup the users photo from an API using AJAX”.

I then broke this down into essentially 20 small steps. When complete he will have had hands-on experience with PHP, JavaScript (jQuery), HTML, CSS, Bootstrap, AJAX, APIs, SQL (tables, views, stored procedures)…  As a precursor I took him through a very quick hour long intro to OOP also.  I know this stuff is very basic but… I know he has ability to be a good dev, can tell from the way he solves problems - and I really enjoy mentoring, so I’ll be very pleased when he completes it. So will he be cos I gave him a £2000 incentive to get it done. I’ve given him about 2 weeks, which seems fair to me and will be on-call for him to assist/steer.

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Ah wow!

Most companies don’t train junior devs these days, it’s great that yours does!! 👍 

 

Most require a CS degree or demonstratable programming exp

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  On 10/02/2023 at 03:01, Software Dev Expert said:

Ah wow!

Most companies don’t train junior devs these days, it’s great that yours does!! 👍 

 

Most require a CS degree or demonstratable programming exp

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I don’t fully subscribe to that. I’ve seen plenty of roles advertised that train devs up on the job, alongside knowing other managers who do the same.

[Max Norris]

  On 09/02/2023 at 17:49, Matthew S. said:

That will likely never happen, WindowsNT (the Kernel not the OS, though most of the OS is still written in C++ too), XNU (macOS, iOS, iPadOS, watchOS, tvOS kernel) & BSD are all written in a mix of Assembler, C and C++,  Linux is written in C and Assembler (Linus refuses to let C++ into the kernel).

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How about Rust? Neither language is my thing but I hear that it's starting to gain popularity vs C/C++, and is now officially supported by the Linux kernel along with C. As I read it, safer, supposedly faster in some cases, etc. Also read somewhere that Mark Russinovich from MS would like to switch to Rust over C/C++ too eventually. Doubt it would ever send C to pasture alongside Cobol, but it might give it a good run for the money. 

[Software Dev Expert]

  On 10/02/2023 at 08:46, Dick Montage said:

I don’t fully subscribe to that. I’ve seen plenty of roles advertised that train devs up on the job, alongside knowing other managers who do the same.

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When I was a graduate and I searched junior software dev positions online, they all required a degree or substantial programming experience. Both small and large companies. And even when I came across apprentice roles they mostly required some coding experience.

 

Softwire is the only employer I know taking on employees without programming experience. 

 

I was about to ask where you’re based... funnily enough you are also based in the UK. I guess we use different job boards. What do you use?

[Arceles]

  On 10/02/2023 at 09:25, Max Norris said:

How about Rust? Neither language is my thing but I hear that it's starting to gain popularity vs C/C++, and is now officially supported by the Linux kernel along with C. As I read it, safer, supposedly faster in some cases, etc. Also read somewhere that Mark Russinovich from MS would like to switch to Rust over C/C++ too eventually. Doubt it would ever send C to pasture alongside Cobol, but it might give it a good run for the money. 

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Widely unknown in embedded.

[Matthew S.]

  On 10/02/2023 at 12:52, Arceles said:

Widely unknown in embedded.

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If I'm not mistaken I believe it has been ported to AVR's.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  On 10/02/2023 at 09:56, Software Dev Expert said:

What do you use?

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I don’t, I have a recruitment team that do all that so I just end up with vetted CVs

 

  On 10/02/2023 at 09:56, Software Dev Expert said:

they all required a degree or substantial programming experience

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Keyword being “or”… but to my mind, I value experience sure, but that doesn’t imply commercial. If someone has been programming for years and they now want to do it as a job, fantastic! Shows they have a personal interest in it.

One question I always ask in interviews is “What was that moment when you decided you wanted to be a dev, what go you into programming?”. If they give me some boring “Well I went to uni and…”, bye! I want someone who’s gonna say they tinkered with computers, they broke stuff, they had an idea and tried. And then they found “wow I can make this do things”, I want a passionate answer!

[Arceles]

  On 10/02/2023 at 22:51, Matthew S. said:

If I'm not mistaken I believe it has been ported to AVR's.

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It still widely unknown. Yes, Rust maybe an alternative, but C is very well proven and also is still more efficient whenever we are talking about kilobytes of RAM. There is also the fact that very well developed tools to check for misbehaviours in C exist (i,e. MISRA, LINT) whicih also help to check for potential problems in code. C in itself is a language that I do not think will be ever phased away, unless something drastic, like quantum computing, replaces all embedded devices.

[Software Dev Expert]

  On 10/02/2023 at 23:09, Dick Montage said:

I don’t, I have a recruitment team that do all that so I just end up with vetted CVs

 

Keyword being “or”… but to my mind, I value experience sure, but that doesn’t imply commercial. If someone has been programming for years and they now want to do it as a job, fantastic! Shows they have a personal interest in it.

One question I always ask in interviews is “What was that moment when you decided you wanted to be a dev, what go you into programming?”. If they give me some boring “Well I went to uni and…”, bye! I want someone who’s gonna say they tinkered with computers, they broke stuff, they had an idea and tried. And then they found “wow I can make this do things”, I want a passionate answer!

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Ah yeah of course, I wasn't suggesting that experience always implies commercial, provided the company is open to hiring junior devs. 

I'd say that hiring someone with no programming experience at all, however, is the exception rather than the rule. Recently our team had an employee who transferred from another role within the company on the basis of their problem-solving skills. The new employee was given all the necessary training to excel.

From my personal experience university doesn't teach all the skills necessary to be a good software developer. However it teaches the foundations and problem-solving skills. Most of the projects assigned are ones that have already been accomplished previously a million times and can be found with a google search easily. Nothing like what you'd encounter in a workplace. I found that it was my final year project at university which involved a bunch self-learning, problem solving and creativity (a crucial skill to succeed on the job)  in addition to side projects I undertook to learn more modern programming practices e.g. React framework rather than legacy code, and blog-reading. These are the main things that have helped me get the job, especially my first job. My passion for continuous learning through blog-reading outside of work is what helped to give me the edge when changing companies.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  On 11/02/2023 at 18:49, Software Dev Expert said:

From my personal experience university doesn't teach all the skills necessary to be a good software developer.

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I didn’t learn a damn thing at uni that helped me become a good dev.

[Software Dev Expert]

  On 11/02/2023 at 21:49, Dick Montage said:

I didn’t learn a damn thing at uni that helped me become a good dev.

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Regarding what’s relevant to my current role, I learnt the Java Spring framework and Ruby on Rails framework. I self-taught Node and Express and built a web application using this for my final year project at university. I also learnt Android studio, building Java desktop apps, C++ and python. 

 

As I say it helped with the foundations but I didn’t face the type of problems that I face in my job. I think progression would occur fastest if someone started out in an apprentice role. Software dev in a professional environment is very different to a student environment. 

I think the issue was the way we were marked. We had many coursework assignments. We were marked based on the number of programming language features we use. That led to higher marks for those who over-complicate their code. You know what they say... writing more lines of code does not make someone a better programmer, quite the opposite in fact.

I’d say that helped me become a dev but not necessarily a good one. I gained knowledge helping me to become a good dev through self-learning and professional experience. 

 

What sort of programming did you learn at university? I chose the university I did due to the heavy emphasis on coursework. I knew I wanted to be a software dev prior to commencing university. I wouldn’t go for any course that relied heavily on exams. Because memorising stuff does NOT make you a good programmer. 

[Jose_49]

In my case

 

1. TypeScript

2. C#

3. Rust (I'm still getting the basics)

4. Python

 

I don't mind learning a new one. As long as it gets the job done!

[Software Dev Expert]

  On 12/02/2023 at 06:17, Jose_49 said:

In my case

 

1. TypeScript

2. C#

3. Rust (I'm still getting the basics)

4. Python

 

I don't mind learning a new one. As long as it gets the job done!

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What are you trying to accomplish? What are your goals? 

 

I wish you the best of luck in your journey and feel free to post a question if you have any

[+FloatingFatMan Subscriber¹]

Being older than dirt, I think my favourite language will always be my FIRST language, Z80 assembler... But it was terribly difficult to learn and code that on a Sinclair ZX81, then the Spectrum 48k as they both had TERRIBLE keyboards, but later on, in college, I learned to program in Z80 using hex on the Mulitech Micro-Professor MPF-1...

I had so much fun programming that little thing to control a robot arm to grab stuff off my lecturer's desk... So much so that he ended up disconnecting it's grabber!   I got the Zaks Z80 programming bible thrown at me so many times in class...

Nowadays it's all fancy high level stuff that pretty much anyone can do, but back then, you really needed to understand things down to the metal, which is why I also studied microelectronics and robotics.  Hell, most programmers these days can't even count in binary...  I've used so many languages over the decades that it's actually hard to keep track but these days it's mostly web stuff.... HTML, CSS, Javascript (yuk!), C# and so on... I suppose if I had to pick a favourite of modern languages, I'd probably go with C#, but I do so miss hitting the metal directly...