FireFox or Opera ?

[worbd]

1) Full CSS2 standards compilance which for me is a god send opera still follows too much in IE's fading footsteps most notably nested float elements are contained which is incorrect, plus you can't override Operas form styles especially buttons which again is very anoying.

You can override form styles in Opera. And both Firefox and Opera emulate MSIE - when in quirks mode. Other than that, if you get them to render in standards compliant mode, they both do it correctly.

So you are a bit wrong there :)

3) Firefox and KHTML (aka Konquerer/Safari) are the best and their open source

The best? That depends on who you ask I guess...

4) Simplicity, i dislike going into a browser and seeing a mass of buttons and options

You haven't tried Opera lately then...

6) If a page is designed to be laid out correctly in IE and doesn't work in my browser of choise it isn't worth my time ;) and that generally turns out to be true.

Didn't you just say that Opera renders pages more like IE than Firefox?

[lav-chan]

1) Full CSS2 standards compilance which for me is a god send opera still follows too much in IE's fading footsteps most notably nested float elements are contained which is incorrect

585050558[/snapback]

(1) Opera fully supports CSS 2 with a few small exceptions, the main one being the one that you mentioned. That makes sense, since i think one of the guys who works on Opera drafted the CSS recommendation. :x

(2) I don't really see how it can be a 'god send' when it doesn't apply to 90% of your audience. I mean, that's awesome that Mozilla is compliant with the recommendation, but it doesn't really matter if nobody uses Mozilla.

(3) Opera 'auto-encloses' float elements intentionally. Mainly i guess the guy thinks the recommendation is retarded, and he's not the only one. They've discussed changing the actual recommendation so that it works the way Opera does.

(4) This isn't a big problem anyway. You add an extra line or two of code and it works just like it does in Mozilla, no worries. :/

plus you can't override Operas form styles especially buttons which again is very anoying.

585050558[/snapback]

wut? Yes you can. By default Opera allows pages to style the interface elements, including scroll bars, edit boxes, and buttons. I personally disable it, though (Page style > 'Enable styling of forms'/'Enable styling of scrollbars'), because i really don't want Web sites to decide what a program running on my computer should look like.

2) I have to pay for a browser, I've already paid for IE6 i don't want to pay for another (comes with WinXP so i've bought it).

585050558[/snapback]

I can understand that only if you've never bought or pirated any other software. If you're OK with pirating Photoshop, you should be just dandy pirating Opera. Of course, if you don't pirate software, then you're in the clear on this one. :p

3) Firefox and KHTML (aka Konquerer/Safari) are the best and their open source

585050558[/snapback]

... That isn't a reason. -_-

It has never included every single feature in the default UI, dude. And have you tried 7.5 or even the 7.6 previews?

As for spending 10-15 minutes to customize Opera - how on earth do you manage that? Use the View menu to show/hide toolbars, and just right-click and remove the buttons you don't want. You'll spend 30 seconds changing things, at most.

585050770[/snapback]

I'm not a 'dude'. :(

I was obviously exaggerating, anyway. The point is that Opera includes so much extra garbage that it ends up confusing everybody and driving away people who think that using Opera means getting used to the 'clutter'. I know that the 7.6 preview is supposed to fix some of this, but i'm not comfortable using preview versions, so i haven't personally tried it. In any case, the browser should include only the most important things, just like Firetruck does. The main tool bar, the address bar, the tab bar. Opera shouldn't come with six panels and forty buttons enabled by default.

As far as taking 10 or 15 minutes, i guess it's because i like Opera to look like this. <_<

[DJDorkboyTux]

I just like Firefox cause its easy, plus its what I like. :|

I tried Opera a few times, and it just seemed bulky to me. So I went back and forth between Netsacpe Navigator 3.01-7, IE4-6, Opera, and finally to Firefox. Firefox reminds me of the days of Netscape 3.01, which is nice, cause its small, fast, and easy to use.

But do what Android said, I did it a few times over the 12+ years I've been on the net, it works.

[Journeyman]

i prefer firefox, it's not perfect but its only version 1.0 so its still good.

[:: Lyon ::]

For those who needs more reasons

http://www.gungfu.de/facts/archives/2004/1...y-i-love-opera/

585050462[/snapback]

OMG, nice! I even get some tips in using Opera from that page lol

[Elliott]

The best? That depends on who you ask I guess...

585051760[/snapback]

Actually, they've been proven to be the best two rendering engines in terms of W3C standards compatibility.

Oh, and lav, 90% of your audience actually may be using Firefox or Safari. It depends on who you're trying to appeal to. Not who's gonna stumble upon your site. On my personal site, my target audience is Mac users. They would probably be using Safari or Firefox, so I can proceed to use more advanced and standards-compliant code in my site. Oh, and those "two lines of code" also start to pile up and make your code look messy. Thing is, those few lines shouldn't have to be done.

Edited December 7, 2004 by jagedEdge

[lav-chan]

Oh, and lav, 90% of your audience actually may be using Firefox or Safari. It depends on who you're trying to appeal to. Not who's gonna stumble upon your site. On my personal site, my target audience is Mac users. They would probably be using Safari or Firefox, so I can proceed to use more advanced and standards-compliant code in my site.

585055591[/snapback]

True enough. Niche browsers for niche Web sites. :/

Oh, and those "two lines of code" also start to pile up and make your code look messy. Thing is, those few lines shouldn't have to be done.

585055591[/snapback]

Well, some people, including, evidently, one of the guys who designed the CSS recommendation, actually think that they should.

I personally think that following the recommendations would be important, but right now Internet Explorer makes that irrelevant. Standards compliance is just absolutely not a factor at all in deciding what browser you should use, because 90% of the world uses Internet Explorer. Unless, of course, you are one of those people (and you are) who has a Web site designed for a niche group of people. In which case it doesn't really matter whether the browser follows the recommendations or not -- it only matters whether your audience uses browsers that all render the same.

[worbd]

Actually, they've been proven to be the best two rendering engines in terms of W3C standards compatibility.

As has Opera.

The point is that Opera includes so much extra garbage that it ends up confusing everybody

Not in my experience.

[red.]

i've tried both and i have to say that prefer opera. i installed firefox after all of the hype and realised that it had nothing extra (and sometimes less) to keep me away from opera. i still think opera is the best browser.

also in reply to the person that said opera takes 15mins to customise (what the hell kind of layout do you use that takes 15 mins to customise?) some people might say that firefox takes a long time to customise on a fresh install because you have to download the extensions etc.

[ZZOOzzoo]

For those who say Opera is bloated or has too much things stuffed inside, just compare memory usage and startup speed with Firefox.

Firefox and Opera takes almost the same amount of memory, yet Opera has so much more features, does it mean 'bloated'?

[naap51stang]

I prefer Firefox.......I use outlook for my P.I.M., so I don't need all the "features" of

Opera, so why waste all the room it takes up when all I need is a browser?

:alien:

[l0g0ut]

what do you mean "waste all the room it takes when all you need is the browser"? shouldn't the question be "why would you use something that takes up so much more space than opera but does so much less?"

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I prefer Firefox.......I use outlook for my P.I.M., so I don't need all the "features" of

Opera, so why waste all the room it takes up when all I need is a browser?

:alien:

585057758[/snapback]

I doubt you ever installed Opera since it asks you to disable M2/Voice at installation and use it as browser only. I think people missunderstand this, unless the features aren't used, they don't take any resources. And I doubt you would lower yourself at the level where you complain about HD useage of the program.

[SchaF]

Firefox or Opera? :cry: I say Maxthon ;), tho they're both nice browsers, but i really got used to all functions Maxthon offers, i just can't do without them now. I know there are extensions and stuff like that, but why should i bother with that, when i have in Maxthon everything from the start. Just my 66 cents. :D

[xplatinum]

Ok. Let's say Opera and Firefox are both totally equal in terms of rendering time, WC3 compliancy, etc... (opera is bloated imo).

One fact remains that can't be discussed. Firefox is free and opensource. Opera isn't.

[xplatinum]

Firefox or Opera? :cry: I say Maxthon ;), tho they're both nice browsers, but i really got used to all functions Maxthon offers, i just can't do without them now. I know there are extensions and stuff like that, but why should i bother with that, when i have in Maxthon everything from the start. Just my 66 cents. :D

585059503[/snapback]

That's one thing people using Maxthon (MyIE) fail to understand. Firefox isn't only about the features and it's simplicity-- it's about security. Maxthon is just a pretty dress put on top of an old lady that's full of holes (they're loose too :p). The security issues REMAIN ! And that has been the whole point of switching to Firefox (or any other browser that floats your boat for that matter).

Firefox may have less holes because less people are trying to exploit it-- but like it or not, it's a fact-- whatever the reason may be.

[alan8it]

Sorry, just too many This program has performed an illegal operation errors from Firefox. Then, after I restart, my Extensions are sort of screwy. Opera is much more streamlined and stable than Any build of Firefox. It is much easier for me to customize Opera as well.

[ZZOOzzoo]

That's one thing people using Maxthon (MyIE) fail to understand. Firefox isn't only about the features and it's simplicity-- it's about security. Maxthon is just a pretty dress put on top of an old lady that's full of holes (they're loose too :p). The security issues REMAIN ! And that has been the whole point of switching to Firefox (or any other browser that floats your boat for that matter).

585059553[/snapback]

I know this is Opera vs. FX thread but since this issue was brought, I'll comment on this.

Maxthon can disable ActiveX completely when browsing, and several exploits were fixed independently from IE by Maxthon developers.

And since I have firewall and AV correctly set, I'll consider my browsing experience and habits more important for now.

Ok. Let's say Opera and Firefox are both totally equal in terms of rendering time, WC3 compliancy, etc... (opera is bloated imo).

That argument is valid as long as all people agree that Opera and FX has exact same speed and quality in engine.

And once again, if you ever used Opera, it starts up as fast as FX (not as fast as IE or IE based, but anyway..), if not faster.

And memory usage are almost the same.

What's your criteria to judge whether one program is bloated or not? Number of features?

[SchaF]

@xplatinum: I agree --> "Firefox is free and opensource. Opera isn't.", tho it's nothing wrong if program, or browser in this case, is not open source, I can't see any bad in this.

About Maxthon, ever since i've been using Maxthon i don't have any problems (tenses are screwed here, sorry :blush: ). I may try Opera again someday, for now i'm quite satisfied with Maxton. How come security holes remain in Maxthon, because of the IEs rendering engine? Is there any article about that, like the one I've found somewhere in this topic about Opera (which was nice read btw).

EDIT: Oops, sorry for OT, delete if neccessary.

[stezo2k]

firefox, its free

both browsers are on par i'd say, but i do prefer firefox

[KayMan2K]

Ok. Let's say Opera and Firefox are both totally equal in terms of rendering time, WC3 compliancy, etc... (opera is bloated imo).

One fact remains that can't be discussed. Firefox is free and opensource. Opera isn't.

585059529[/snapback]

Opera is smaller than FireFox... explain how accomplishing more functionality in a smaller space is bloated? It is options. If you don't want them, don't use it. No harm.

Yes, it can be discussed because Opera is also free. It just displays a small Google Ad banner at the top. Opera is not open source, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing and it isn't a necessarily good thing that FireFox is open source. Its a preference... and it can certainly be discussed.

[Bhav]

definitely firefox...opera has ads built-in. nuff said.

[dj6ross]

Depends on the user. I don't use any special things like "mouse gestures" which I had to look up on google to find out what they are. I use FF it works for me and I'm used to it. I may give Opera a try though, to see what people are fighting about.

Edited December 7, 2004 by dj6ross

[lav-chan]

Seriously, though, do all you guys who whine about Opera not being free use Linux? Nobody ever answers that. If you pirated Windows or Office or Nero or Alcohol or Photoshop or Trillian Pro, you have absolutely no grounds on which to complain about Opera not being free.

I'm not trying to justify or suggest software piracy -- i'm just saying that you can't sit there on your pirated copy of Windows XP Pro Corporate and tell me that you don't want to use Opera because it's not free. That just doesn't work.

[mfarley]

I have to chime in here and say that though I do love Firefox and it will remain on my PC, I have been testing Opera out and so far I am very impressed with it.

1.) It does seem to load a bit faster.

2.) Though Firefox has an extention to change the way tabs work...Opera's seem to work much more intuitively then Firefox 'out of the box'.

3.) The RSS reader built into the browser is very handy. When I am surfing I don't wish to have an email client like Thunderbird open to read RSS, it seems illogical. 1 application is all I need open.

4.) The ads are annoying but they are only there if you choose not to purchase the application. Very reasonable IMO. I suppose they could have went the route of OmniWeb and make it a 30 day launch trial.

Things I DISLIKE about Opera:

1.) No WYSIWYG areas seem to work in it. The built-in WYSIWYG in vB isn't supported, TinyMCE isn't supported, it's incredibly annoying.

2.) It does seem a bit bloated. Certain features seem like they would be much better off as plug-ins versus native.

Mike =)