FireFox or Opera ?

[arrrgh]

NeoTech: Where exactly did I say that I was listing reasons for getting Firefox? It was a response to Chode's post where he claimed that in truth less than 1.7 million people have downloaded Firefox.

d_ralphie: The only independent browser stats provider I know is w3schools, if there's some other that shows considerably higher amount of Opera users I'll gladly pull back my estimates about Firefox/Opera user ratios.

[Chode]

NeoTech: Where exactly did I say that I was listing reasons for getting Firefox? It was a response to Chode's post where he claimed that in truth less than 1.7 million people have downloaded Firefox.

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My post was maths for a post higher up in the thread. READ.

Btw, 200,000 to 300,000 downloads daily? I think not.

They'd have their million mark in only 4 days at that rate. I don't know where you get your figures from but they are either a) Made Up or b) Ridiculously inflated.

[d_ralphie]

elendil doesn't even read what we're actually writing.

[arrrgh]

elendil doesn't even read what we're actually writing.

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Uh, yeah I do.

Chode: The 200k+ figure was from Asa Dotzler's weblog. He's a Moz.org staff member.

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/

I don't see anything in this thread that would make your post more accurate..

[Chode]

common sense says that he's just jacking Firefox.

[d_ralphie]

Uh, yeah I do.

Chode: The 200k+ figure was from Asa Dotzler's weblog. He's a Moz.org staff member.

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/

I don't see anything in this thread that would make your post more accurate..

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what, pray tell, does this have to do with anything i've written?

i rest my case.

[elliot]

Opera betas are not like firefox nightlies at all.  They tend to be very stable.  Especially this beta, I have had very few crashes with it, and it is much faster on all accounts.  There is nothing in this beta that makes it not usable, unlike the firefox nightlies.

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Only crashed a few times? Too bad...

I used the unstable firefox nightlies for about 6 months prior to 1.0 and I cannot ever remember one of them being unstable. Maybe once or twice, out of 150.

[d_ralphie]

as long as we're sharing useless anecdotal evidence, i can say that firefox crashes a lot more than opera compared to how much i run both of them. i run opera all the time, and it hardly ever crashes. i run firefox only for testing, and it crashes a LOT!

[Ivand]

I've never seen Firefox crashing and I've been using it in differents computers computer ( home, work, school, etc ) for more than a year now. :)

[elliot]

Exactly. :sleep: If I were you ralphie I would be less concerned with firefox and more concerned with fixing my broken computer.

[arrrgh]

common sense says that he's just jacking Firefox.

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:wacko: :no: :cry:

Ok, I see this is pointless.

As for NeoTech who wanted reasons to get Firefox: Listing reasons to use either one is pretty useless, both are free to download (+ relatively small) and both are very good browsers. Just download them and use whatever feels better.

[arrrgh]

what, pray tell, does this have to do with anything i've written?

i rest my case.

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I was going to leave this thread be but now I have to ask you the same question.. Did you even read what I said? The whole post started with 'Chode:', why on earth would you think that I was replying to anything you have said?

[x-byte]

Only crashed a few times? Too bad...

I used the unstable firefox nightlies for about 6 months prior to 1.0 and I cannot ever remember one of them being unstable. Maybe once or twice, out of 150.

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Hmm.. I tried Firefox 1.0 for a day, and it crashed like every 30min... Atleast 10-15 times during the time I tested it. Opera 8.00 beta 1 which I use now have crashed 1 time since early December.

edit: sorry wrong quote... fixed now.

[d_ralphie]

Exactly. :sleep: If I were you ralphie I would be less concerned with firefox and more concerned with fixing my broken computer.

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my computer works perfectly. firefox is the only program which crashes regularly. and it crashes a lot. this is true for several computers, by the way. I have to do testing on both mac, linux and windows (9x/nt/2k/xp).

I was going to leave this thread be but now I have to ask you the same question.. Did you even read what I said? The whole post started with 'Chode:', why on earth would you think that I was replying to anything you have said?

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uh, because you QUOTED me?

[arrrgh]

uh, because you QUOTED me?

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Arrh, fine. And below the quote was my reply to you. Then you must have noticed the empty space, after which I started the NEXT PARAGRAPH with 'Chode:'.. I hope I made myself clear this time.

[megamanXplosion]

firefox fanboys and pushers are rightfully becoming more and more hated across the web. it is not that they love firefox. it's they way they are completely ignorant about other browsers, and just spew out what they've been brainwashed into thinking about these other browsers, without even trying it out themselves.

Or they compare their current browser with another that they used nearly a year ago and claim that it's still a valid reason to not try the product. One of my favorites is "I've tried Opera 7.11 and didn't like it so I won't bother trying Opera 8.0" (to paraphrase.) I cannot even count how many times I've heard something along those lines, and it's pathetic everytime I hear it.

Another of my favorite claims is "you can't compare apples to oranges" even though they usually do it themselves and the company which makes Firefox does it, but that's slightly off-topic.

at least the opera fanboys have usually tried firefox before forming an opinion. you see, you have to pay for opera, but people prefer something if it's free. so they hear about the free firefox and obviously try it out.

on the other hand, firefox fanbois often don't bother to try out opera, so they just spew out the tired old lies they've heard from someone else who didn't try opera either, but who heard it from someone else who didn't try opera either, who... etc.

Agreed. If people are willing to pay for a product when they could find another that is "just as good" (I hate that claim because they're tailored for totally different audiences, they can't possibly be "just as good" as eachother by any stretch of the imagination,) then that shows that they have an open mind and wouldn't mind trying a product if it will save them money. People like this typically have good reasons to keep paying for a product when there are free alternatives available. The same can't be said for a LOT of Firefox users which try to compare Firefox to Opera though; they are already happy with the free browser and usually have no intentions on reviewing a browser that they'd have to pay for.

I think the developers fell for this as well; it's obvious by the Firefox vs Opera comparison they made which didn't even come close to accurate (about 40% accuracy on the Opera column while 100% accuracy on the Firefox column.)

From reading Firefox vs. Opera threads on various boards (this, mozillazine, opera forums) I fail to see any difference between the fans. Firefox and Opera both have their 'bad apples' and since Firefox is more popular, it's statistically bound to have more this kind of fans. It's the human nature, not the browser.

You can't see any differences between them? Honestly? I'll agree with your more-popular-more-idiots claim, but I also have to say that the price of each adds to the idiocy a great deal. And I don't believe anyone here was saying it was the browser's fault.

Edit: d_ralphie: Never have I seen so much FUD and bull**** concentrated in one post, congrats.

Actually, he's completely correct. Read my response above.

a billion flies can't be wrong. eat ****!

I always loved that saying, hehe.

opera fanboys are infinitely more informed than the disgusting firefox fanboys.

Not always, but usually.

oh please. i see more and more people not using firefox just because of the rabid fanboys that pollute the web. you won't see that with any other browser.

I have almost quit using Firefox for that exact reason, actually. It's hard to stand by a product when the developers themselves openly promote lying by doing it themselves (their firefox vs opera comparison) and letting their affiliates (such as mozillazine) get away with promoting lying. That's also one of the reasons I love Opera so much, they don't openly promote lying. During the whole "let's flood download sites" parade of idiocy by Firefox evangelists, the Opera users were considering retaliation on them and two (if I recall correctly) Opera employees came into the topic and asked that the users not follow the same path. That says something about the people standing behind Opera.

d_ralphie: The only independent browser stats provider I know is w3schools, if there's some other that shows considerably higher amount of Opera users I'll gladly pull back my estimates about Firefox/Opera user ratios.

That's a bad place to pull figures from, as most people that go to that site are technologically-inclined, which skews their results (for firefox and opera) dramatically.

as long as we're sharing useless anecdotal evidence, i can say that firefox crashes a lot more than opera compared to how much i run both of them. i run opera all the time, and it hardly ever crashes. i run firefox only for testing, and it crashes a LOT!

Same for me (using the stable firefox release and opera 8 beta 1) The same couldn't be said of Opera 7.54 though, it was about equal for me. And before anyone asks, my computer is perfectly stable so those crashes were due to coding errors (perhaps not errors but incompatibilities with certain hardware.)

uh, because you QUOTED me?

The only part which was directed to you was "Uh, yeah I do." The rest was toward Chode.

[arrrgh]

megamanXplosion: Yeah, I can honestly say that I've seen plenty of IE/Opera trolls.. just as obnoxious Firefox trolls, if you are bored just read through some of the deleted/removed posts on mozillazine.

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=26

And about the w3schools link, I thought it would be funny to show that actually the huge majority of technologically inclined, or informed if you may (as d_ralphie put it), users prefer Firefox.

[megamanXplosion]

And about the w3schools link, I thought it would be funny to show that actually the huge majority of technologically inclined, or informed if you may (as d_ralphie put it), users prefer Firefox.

Argument based on popularity = Argumentum ad populum = Logical fallacy.

[moeburn]

Firefox is just a gateway browser to Opera.

Oh, BTW, mods are against any public opinion (arguments are bad), and will close this thread.

[megamanXplosion]

Firefox is just a gateway browser to Opera.

Oh, BTW, mods are against any public opinion (arguments are bad), and will close this thread.

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They are against personal attacks, not debates. If they are against all debates or "any public opinion" then this topic should've been closed at least 2 months ago and the rules should be updated.

[arrrgh]

Argument based on popularity = Argumentum ad populum = Logical fallacy.

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Ah, but it wasn't an argument in such sense, originally it was to support my post about Opera/Firefox user ratios. I wasn't saying at any point that Firefox's popularity makes it better.

It also servers as a counter to your and d_ralphie's claim that Opera users are more informed/technically inclined. W3schools' is a site where this would clearly skew stats in Opera's favor. However, since the stats give Opera it's usual 2-3% cut I'm tempted to say that your argument doesn't hold water.

[dj6ross]

I use Firefox at home, because it's so cute. ;)

At school I use Opera. You should see these teenages freakout. WTF?!?!11/!? is that? A Game?!?@!1/1?

LoL!

Both are great! Like a big bowl of that Tony the Tiger cereal. yum! hehehehe :laugh:

I must leave now :ninja:

[megamanXplosion]

Ah, but it wasn't an argument in such sense, originally it was to support my post about Opera/Firefox user ratios. I wasn't saying at any point that Firefox's popularity makes it better.

I thought that you were implying that Firefox was superior because more "technically inclined" users have it; I assume that you were referring to the more-downloads-more-idiots theory? I don't recall anyone disagreeing with it so it wasn't really obvious when reading your post, you were just repeating yourself. What my point earlier was that the price has an involvement in the idiocy because most people who are happy with freeware aren't going to extensively review alternative they'd need to pay for. Would you extensively review a product you'd need to pay for when you're happy with the free software you have? I don't think you would, and I don't think many others would.

It also servers as a counter to your and d_ralphie's claim that Opera users are more informed/technically inclined. W3schools' is a site where this would clearly skew stats in Opera's favor. However, since the stats give Opera it's usual 2-3% cut I'm tempted to say that your argument doesn't hold water.

Well if it was also a counter-argument to our "more informed" claim then my above comment still rings true, that's a logical fallacy; and you lack the evidence to link those percentages with the "more informed" user base because there's a load of random factors which needs to be considered but are unknown. You must also remember that some Firefox users are also Opera users, the same is true vice versa (probably moreso because everyone likes to save money if they can,) plus they could be viewing the site with both browsers because they're using the CSS preview tools and wish to test both browsers, etc. You also forget that "technologically inclined" doesn't imply that the person is willing to pay for software when they're happy with the freeware. You also, conveniently, forgot to include Firefox in the skewing-factor when it's obviously true that they would be skewed because the majority of people who visit that site are webmasters and those webmasters will likely be using Firefox for the simple reason that it does have more market-share (prioritizing the process of browser compatibility on their websites.) I'm sorry but your argument doesn't hold water.

I'd also like to point out that Opera will likely have at least 5% (among the "technically inclined" user base) by the end of 2005, which won't be "the usual." Opera is about to release a major new version of their browser (mass publicity,) they're lowering the price, they're making the license more user-friendly, they're going to include a web accelerator which could accelerate browsing by 500%, and they're starting an effective grass-roots marketing campaign in the United States at college universities/banks/wherever (which will be successful due to all of the recent interface changes to simplify the program for the not-so-technically inclined.) Opera's putting good use to that $28 million (if I recall correctly) they recieved from Microsoft over that court-case where Microsoft was practicing a monopoly (which was one of the things which held their marketshare back when they released 7.0; people couldn't use their MSN homepages due to browser sniffing.)

[arrrgh]

Maybe but neither does yours. They are simply opinions without any concrete evidence to back them up.

[megamanXplosion]

Maybe but neither does yours. They are simply opinions without any concrete evidence to back them up.

I don't have concrete evidence but I think my claim is very logical; I seriously doubt that many Firefox users are going to extensively review an application they'd pay for when they already have something that makes them happy and it's free, which leads to a lot of ignorance about Opera's capabilities. I don't think concrete evidence is really needed to support my claim, it's logical.