Vince Carter to New Jersey

[golazo]

i was shocked when i found that out this morning.. toronto got ****** in the ass with the deal, now skip to my lou is their best player :p

[Xtreme $niper]

i was shocked when i found that out this morning.. toronto got ****** in the ass with the deal, now skip to my lou is their best player  :p

585122421[/snapback]

All vince is right now is hype. He lost any talent he once even half possessed a long time ago. His time to reign is gone. Hes constantly been injured lately as well. No use to the Raptors.

[golazo]

yeh now watch him shine at nj

[Xtreme $niper]

yeh now watch him shine at nj

585122445[/snapback]

Let him. It will show to the world how shallow he is. Faking to not play well just to get traded. :sleep:

[Fred Derf Veteran]

It's a better trade for the raptors

They get 3 good players

and 2 futurs player

5-1 the raptors made a good trade

585122236[/snapback]

The nets got robbed.

585122350[/snapback]

Dec. 18, 2004. 09:54 AM

Was that really all they got?

He was fragile, inconsistent and oh-so-soft, but Vince Carter was still the Raptors' offensive heart

They traded him for two aging journeymen, a guy who probably won't play and a couple of draft picks, Dave Feschuk writes

Whether it's 30 years from now or 30 minutes, observers of the NBA are going to weigh the pros and cons of the biggest transaction in Raptors history and say exactly the same thing: "That is all they got for Vince Freakin' Carter?!"

There'll be condescension and indignation and maybe even a little outrage in their voices, and in a lot of ways, the tone will be justified. Vince Freakin' Carter, after all, is still one of the biggest names in basketball, still a seller of jerseys and a getter of all-star votes despite all the injury and the inconsistency and the maddening lack of competitive aggression he's displayed during the not-so-graceful descent from his 2001 high point.

And as for the players who are Bay Street-bound after yesterday's landmark trade with the New Jersey Nets ? well, not one is anything approaching a corporate endorser. The biggest name coming this way, Alonzo Mourning, is a former all-star who received a kidney transplant a year ago tomorrow and who is currently ravaged by what the Nets' Web site described not-so-comfortingly last night as a "litany of injuries." The rest of the deal includes a couple of first-round draft picks and frontliners Eric Williams, 32, and Aaron Williams, 33.

When you consider the Canadian franchise's luck with guys named Williams ? not to mention its aplomb in squandering first-round draft picks ? this is scary territory, indeed. The deal rids the club of a cancer but brings in vital-organ issues. It rids the marquee of its biggest name and replaces it with, in the best-case scenario, two names we won't know for some time.

In other words: Rebuilding, no matter the club's official spin, is officially in progress.

"Whether this is the best (deal) or not is probably not going to be determined until we find out what happens with these draft picks and you give them three years in the league," said Rob Babcock, the rookie general manager. "But I think immediately, right now ... it makes us a better basketball team right now."

The more you think about this deal, though, the less there is to like. Babcock said the duelling Williamses bring "interior toughness and defence and rebounding." But Aaron Williams, a 6-foot-9 centre, has never been exalted as either an above-average rebounder or defender. Eric Williams is, indeed, an ace defender with three-point range, but is no monster on the boards. Both players are best described as aging journeymen.

Because of that ? and because Babcock acknowledged last night that Mourning may never play for the Raptors ? you'll never stop the second-guessers who'll say the GM could have fetched more for Carter if he'd waited longer.

Turning around Carter's career, after all, was a challenge many NBA clubs were willing to undertake ? thus the "barrage of phone calls" Babcock said he fielded since a rumoured trade with Portland first made headlines a month ago. If that many wolves were at the door, surely there would have been more ? offering more ? in coming days.

Carter, even at his worst, is still a go-to scorer. And he's most certainly due for a renaissance, however temporary and however maddening to Raptor fans, in the Meadowlands. But who'll provide the lost offensive punch in Toronto?

Thing is, the price of these three Nets and those two draft picks wasn't just Carter ? it includes the price of all those ultimately underperforming players whose presence was designed to make Carter extend his contract in 2001. The tally was more than $200-million-some in salaries, from Hakeem Olajuwon and Antonio Davis to the Williamses, Alvin and Jerome. None of them will play for the Raptors this season ? Davis' ghost is represented by the shell of the player formerly known as Jalen Rose.

It's hardly Babcock's burden to bear ? and no one's saying he doesn't deserve more time to learn this business ? but you can't overlook that Carter's run here went from delightful to disaster in short order; that the CEO who presided over the entire mess, Richard Peddie, is still in office; that nothing has actually changed about the way this franchise operates.

Don't forget: An organization that says it's losing money in a hockey lockout saved as much as $30 million (U.S.) in future salaries yesterday. If and when those draft picks turn into something serviceable ? if and when the new-found "financial flexibility" that Babcock talked about is employed to some competitive advantage ? then maybe the Raptors can claim some kind of victory in this deal. Until then, the upside isn't grandiose. Maybe there's some pressure taken off forward-centre Chris Bosh, the stressed-out sophomore. Maybe Sam Mitchell, the hard-nosed coach, will turn a couple of hard-playing Williamses into the missing ingredient that edges this moribund club closer to .500.

Until then, "That is all they got for Vince Freakin' Carter?" is this trade's dubious legacy. Merry Christmas, New Jersey.

[....]

The guys on ESPN last night disagree, saying Carter was a cancer up there.

[Xtreme $niper]

Toronto seems to like getting older players instead of young and energetic ones. Leafs would be a prime example.

[mattmatik]

New Jersey obviously got the better end of the deal - for now.

Personally, I think this spells the end for Jason Kidd. The last time he played with a big time shooting guard (Jim Jackson in Dallas), we all know how that one turned out.

The question I have, and the only one I care about: what the hell happened to Jalen Rose? :cry:

[golazo]

Dec. 18, 2004. 09:54 AM

Was that really all they got?

He was fragile, inconsistent and oh-so-soft, but Vince Carter was still the Raptors' offensive heart

They traded him for two aging journeymen, a guy who probably won't play and a couple of draft picks, Dave Feschuk writes

Whether it's 30 years from now or 30 minutes, observers of the NBA are going to weigh the pros and cons of the biggest transaction in Raptors history and say exactly the same thing: "That is all they got for Vince Freakin' Carter?!"

There'll be condescension and indignation and maybe even a little outrage in their voices, and in a lot of ways, the tone will be justified. Vince Freakin' Carter, after all, is still one of the biggest names in basketball, still a seller of jerseys and a getter of all-star votes despite all the injury and the inconsistency and the maddening lack of competitive aggression he's displayed during the not-so-graceful descent from his 2001 high point.

And as for the players who are Bay Street-bound after yesterday's landmark trade with the New Jersey Nets ? well, not one is anything approaching a corporate endorser. The biggest name coming this way, Alonzo Mourning, is a former all-star who received a kidney transplant a year ago tomorrow and who is currently ravaged by what the Nets' Web site described not-so-comfortingly last night as a "litany of injuries." The rest of the deal includes a couple of first-round draft picks and frontliners Eric Williams, 32, and Aaron Williams, 33.

When you consider the Canadian franchise's luck with guys named Williams ? not to mention its aplomb in squandering first-round draft picks ? this is scary territory, indeed. The deal rids the club of a cancer but brings in vital-organ issues. It rids the marquee of its biggest name and replaces it with, in the best-case scenario, two names we won't know for some time.

In other words: Rebuilding, no matter the club's official spin, is officially in progress.

"Whether this is the best (deal) or not is probably not going to be determined until we find out what happens with these draft picks and you give them three years in the league," said Rob Babcock, the rookie general manager. "But I think immediately, right now ... it makes us a better basketball team right now."

The more you think about this deal, though, the less there is to like. Babcock said the duelling Williamses bring "interior toughness and defence and rebounding." But Aaron Williams, a 6-foot-9 centre, has never been exalted as either an above-average rebounder or defender. Eric Williams is, indeed, an ace defender with three-point range, but is no monster on the boards. Both players are best described as aging journeymen.

Because of that ? and because Babcock acknowledged last night that Mourning may never play for the Raptors ? you'll never stop the second-guessers who'll say the GM could have fetched more for Carter if he'd waited longer.

Turning around Carter's career, after all, was a challenge many NBA clubs were willing to undertake ? thus the "barrage of phone calls" Babcock said he fielded since a rumoured trade with Portland first made headlines a month ago. If that many wolves were at the door, surely there would have been more ? offering more ? in coming days.

Carter, even at his worst, is still a go-to scorer. And he's most certainly due for a renaissance, however temporary and however maddening to Raptor fans, in the Meadowlands. But who'll provide the lost offensive punch in Toronto?

Thing is, the price of these three Nets and those two draft picks wasn't just Carter ? it includes the price of all those ultimately underperforming players whose presence was designed to make Carter extend his contract in 2001. The tally was more than $200-million-some in salaries, from Hakeem Olajuwon and Antonio Davis to the Williamses, Alvin and Jerome. None of them will play for the Raptors this season ? Davis' ghost is represented by the shell of the player formerly known as Jalen Rose.

It's hardly Babcock's burden to bear ? and no one's saying he doesn't deserve more time to learn this business ? but you can't overlook that Carter's run here went from delightful to disaster in short order; that the CEO who presided over the entire mess, Richard Peddie, is still in office; that nothing has actually changed about the way this franchise operates.

Don't forget: An organization that says it's losing money in a hockey lockout saved as much as $30 million (U.S.) in future salaries yesterday. If and when those draft picks turn into something serviceable ? if and when the new-found "financial flexibility" that Babcock talked about is employed to some competitive advantage ? then maybe the Raptors can claim some kind of victory in this deal. Until then, the upside isn't grandiose. Maybe there's some pressure taken off forward-centre Chris Bosh, the stressed-out sophomore. Maybe Sam Mitchell, the hard-nosed coach, will turn a couple of hard-playing Williamses into the missing ingredient that edges this moribund club closer to .500.

Until then, "That is all they got for Vince Freakin' Carter?" is this trade's dubious legacy. Merry Christmas, New Jersey.

585122460[/snapback]

well said. that would be a good(Y)ticle on espn or nba.com (Y)

[Fred Derf Veteran]

well said. that would be a good article on espn or nba.com (Y)

585122516[/snapback]

It's from the Toronto Star but they require registration so I didn't link it.

[metal_termite]

To think, the Raptors had McGrady and Carter at the same time once. I think Carter is going to regain his from in NJ. The only hope for the Raptors -- They've been successful with drafting good first round picks so this may just turn out in the long run.

[MetaLRasaM]

They've been successful with drafting good first round picks so this may just turn out in the long run.

585122655[/snapback]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

you are SOOO wrong...vince was their ONLY good pick...we picked michael bradly over zack randolph! last year we picked chris jeffries!! and this yr..even tho i like him..we got rafa arojo...in the 8th pick..over 6ers eguadala and bulls deng....we DONT make any good draft picks...

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Dec. 19, 2004. 09:08 AM

Trade haste leaves Raps lying in waste

DAVE FESCHUK

The chronology went like so: Vince Carter asked to be traded and played like it, which didn't help locker room morale when the Raptors started losing copiously and with nonchalance.

So rookie coach Sam Mitchell, a fanatic for chalance, freaked out repeatedly, sometimes in the ear of rookie general manager Rob Babcock, who was already dealing with the unenviable pressure of working for a franchise whose hockey cash cow isn't milking and whose basketball attendance is taking regular trips to the abattoir.

Babcock, with one of Mitchell's "get-me-some-men-or-we're-the-Washington-Generals" sermons ringing in his ears, heard the phone ring last Thursday morning. It was Rod Thorn, the veteran GM of the New Jersey Nets, who was proposing what Thorn ? and everyone loosely connected to a friend of a mother of a 9-year-old NBA fan ? thought was an outlandishly favourable deal for the Nets.

It involved plucking an all-star from the northland while shipping what amounted to a couple of Ford Freestars to Toronto, Mr. Half Man for a couple of hoop-equivalent minivans. It shipped a still-popular favourite named Carter for two role players named Eric Williams and Aaron Williams and a kidney-transplant case named Alonzo Mourning, who is likely to never play for Toronto. Oh, and the Raptors would get two first-round draft picks most likely to fall between Nos.10 and 20 come June.

Thorn figured he had zero chance.

"But you never know until you ask," said Thorn, speaking to reporters Friday with what an eyewitness described as a "can-you-believe-my-luck" grin.

This is why Babcock is still batting .000 as the Raptors GM. Not only is his early record the pits, so is his not-so-God-given gift for rationalizing Friday's panicky insanity, which squandered a player who is still an asset in the eyes of many for spare parts and not-so-sure-thing picks.

"We didn't rush into this at all," Babcock said Friday, a day after he received Thorn's offer and, after answering the hard questions on a board of directors conference call ? "You mean this saves us $30 million? Great work, Robby!" ? promptly jumped.

Didn't rush? Heck, has a bigger trade been made in greater haste?

You get bad vibes all around on this deal. The best player the Raptors landed, Eric Williams, appeared to be crushed by the news, telling reporters he was going to take a couple of days and "think about what I'm going to do with my life."

A more pressing question: What is Babcock doing with this franchise? Did he foolishly give in to Mitchell's obvious impatience with the current roster, foolishly believe this season actually means something? Or maybe it's just as likely that CEO Richard Peddiedemanded a quick fix to help attendance and TV ratings in the near term.

Waiting longer, clearly, was the only answer to Babcock's Carter conundrum. This season was a write-off anyway. And surely a deal this unbeneficial would have been around at the trade deadline, when the Raptors would have held more leverage in demanding pot-sweetening extras, or on draft day, when the Raptors, if they traded for picks, would have had far more intimate knowledge of what they might actually be getting for those picks.

Either way, Babcock's hair-trigger misstep is depressing news for anyone who loves the game in this country. The faces change, but nothing changes. The talent-starved Raptors now toil among the dregs, barely a rung above the expansion Bobcats, whose upside and cap situation are far more optimistic. And the worst part is that Babcock is convinced that it doesn't matter. He said the other night that talent doesn't ultimately win in this league, that hard work and teamwork trump skill.

He's observed it correctly in spurts: Now and then a plucky squad will beat a better one. But the art, throughout league history, lies in getting the super-talented guys and getting them to play together and for keeps. The art isn't turning Eric Williams into Earvin (Magic) Johnson, because it isn't happening.

As Charles Barkley once said: "You can have all the role players you want; you're not going anywhere. You've got to have supers. You've got to have two electricians to get the lights on in the building and two stars to build around ? or at least one."

Or, to quote someone closer to Babcock's circle, it's like Kevin McHale, his old boss, has classically pointed out: "You can get 12 plumbers who'll play hard, but if you don't have the talent you're not going to win anything."

The super has left the building. The plumbers are on the way. And the coming chronology looks sad, sad, sad.

[Ayepecks]

Of course he's going to get slammed by the Toronto press... they want an absolutely amazing player in exchange for Vince, and they want him now. No one on the Knicks would have made them happy -- doesn't matter who they would've sent, they would have called it robbing for Carter.

Thing is, you can't even remotely judge the trade right now. Wait until you see the picks they get... 3 first round picks is a pretty good deal, especially for next year's draft. The players they got were role players, yes, but I think they easily equal Carter with the draft picks.

I mean, just look at the recent comments about what Carter did versus the Sonics... do you want a player like that on your team? I know I sure as hell don't, no matter if he's my favorite player or not.

[djsaad1]

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

you are SOOO wrong...vince was their ONLY good pick...we picked michael bradly over zack randolph! last year we picked chris jeffries!! and this yr..even tho i like him..we got rafa arojo...in the 8th pick..over 6ers eguadala and bulls deng....we DONT make any good draft picks...

585125590[/snapback]

You guys got chris bosch 2 years ago, I would have to say that was a great pick. He could be your next franchise player for a long time.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Of course he's going to get slammed by the Toronto press... they want an absolutely amazing player in exchange for Vince, and they want him now. No one on the Knicks would have made them happy -- doesn't matter who they would've sent, they would have called it robbing for Carter.

Thing is, you can't even remotely judge the trade right now. Wait until you see the picks they get... 3 first round picks is a pretty good deal, especially for next year's draft. The players they got were role players, yes, but I think they easily equal Carter with the draft picks.

I mean, just look at the recent comments about what Carter did versus the Sonics... do you want a player like that on your team? I know I sure as hell don't, no matter if he's my favorite player or not.

585136672[/snapback]

It was 2 draft picks and they aren't likely to be lottery picks either (originally from Denver?).

Alonzo Mourning will never play a game for the Raptors and we'll be on the hook to pay his salary or an expensive contract buy out (US$9 million).

So we got two functional journeymen (ages 32 and 33) and two pics. It cost us Vince Carter and US$9 million dollars.

[Ayepecks]

I know it was 2 -- 3 being one of their own (I'm assuming they haven't traded their's away).

And, yes, Mourning will never play for the Raptors. But they'll buy his salary out -- there's no way they're going to pay for him to never play, they'd rather pay for him to leave to free up cap space. Also, I'm pretty sure that a buyout would not cost $9 million. A buyout does not cost the actual amount of the salary, it's just a stipulation in their contract or an amount agreed upon by the two parties.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I know it was 2 -- 3 being one of their own (I'm assuming they haven't traded their's away).

And, yes, Mourning will never play for the Raptors. But they'll buy his salary out -- there's no way they're going to pay for him to never play, they'd rather pay for him to leave to free up cap space. Also, I'm pretty sure that a buyout would not cost $9 million. A buyout does not cost the actual amount of the salary, it's just a stipulation in their contract or an amount agreed upon by the two parties.

585140980[/snapback]

There is $16 to $18 million left on his contract. The $9 million number is what local media people think he will accept.

The point is that initially some fans that the inclusion of Al-Mo was a good thing for Toronto. It wasn't. It'll end up costing us $9 million dollars more than if he wasn't included.

This makes the deal Vince Carter + $9 million for Eric Williams and Aaron Williams and two (likely) non-lottery picks.

[MateoGWJ]

If this deal in the long run ruins toronto, this might be the blow to the organization, and might lead to another canadian sports organization leaving for the USA.

585118728[/snapback]

How is that? The Raptors are not what you might call attendence leaders in the NBA, mostly because however thrilling it might be to watch VC WHEN HE WANTS TO PLAY, noone wants to watch the home team consistently lose. Not worth scarificing the franschise for the occassioanl highlight film.

I'm thinking that without a father figure to call VC out, someone like Oakley, we'll see more of the same from Vince. I doubt he's going to want to fall back into a third option role behind jefferson, not matter what he says. But the Nets are Kidd's team, no question, with Jefferson playing Karl Malone to Kidd's Stockton. Should be fun watching the Nets implode.

Toronto definitely gets the better deal. I'm a big Eric Williams fan-he's a second option scorer when you let him, which they never did in Boston, and a tenatious defender. Aaron Williams is a solid backup. Mourning wants a buyout. Plus, picks.

Great deal for Toronto.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Toronto definitely gets the better deal. I'm a big Eric Williams fan-he's a second option scorer when you let him, which they never did in Boston, and a tenatious defender. Aaron Williams is a solid backup. Mourning wants a buyout. Plus, picks.

Great deal for Toronto.

585141284[/snapback]

Eric Williams won't even start in Toronto. We already have MoPete.

I don't expect Aaron Williams to get much time at all. These guys aren't young either (32 and 33 years old).

Let's just say that the Williams is worth us paying for AlMo's buyout (about US$9 million) that means that one of the two pics has to be VC quality? They're not even likely to be lottery pics.

In the NHL when you trade a superstar in his 20s then the automatic compensation was 5 first round pics, not two.

[Ayepecks]

There is $16 to $18 million left on his contract.  The $9 million number is what local media people think he will accept.

The point is that initially some fans that the inclusion of Al-Mo was a good thing for Toronto.  It wasn't.  It'll end up costing us $9 million dollars more than if he wasn't included.

This makes the deal Vince Carter + $9 million for Eric Williams and Aaron Williams and two (likely) non-lottery picks.

585141016[/snapback]

They had to throw someone in for the deal to work -- in the NBA you have to have even salary (or within the percentage difference -- I forgot what the percent difference requirement is), so they threw in Alonzo Mourning. They knew he wouldn't play with the Raptors, they just needed some way to get rid of him. And, it won't cost against the salary cap. So, if the Raptors are willing to do it, why not?

Next, the draft next year is supposed to be deep. Both draft picks they recieved are expected to be within the 10 to 20 range. Those are not bad picks. Couple these with the draft pick that the Raptors will get (which should be a low draft pick, given how the Raptors are playing, and what their record should end up being).

I don't think it'll take $9 million to buy 'Zo out, but it won't be cheap. I'd estimate something more like $6 million, not $9 million.

Like I said, though: people in Toronto would never have accepted a trade unless it was some super-mega all-star player. Carter was a fan favorite, even though he was extremely rude, tipped another team off about the play the Raptors were going to do, etc. There was NO POINT in keeping Vince. If you can give me one, I'd love to hear it... at least they got something out of it.