OT: Is Linux too hard?

[Septimus]

Apart from gaming, name one thing I cannot do in Linux that you can do in Windows?

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Encode many different forms of streaming media properly and efficiently.

Even the most basic (i.e. Real) has to be done from command line. That and getting some of the newer codecs on Linux is impossible.

Windows = Good for everything, excellent in some areas. Often insecure, ofen unstable.

The End.

:ninja:

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Only insecure if you don't know what you are doing. Goes for any system.

[rezza Veteran]

There are lots of things in Linux that can't be done easily, where on other operating systems (such as Windows and Mac OS X), can be done much easier.

If you're used to doing them on Windows and Mac OS X, then those operating systems will seem easier. If you're used to doing them on linux/bsd/whatever, then those will seem easier. Linux isn't inherently harder than Mac OS X or Windows, but it is inherently different. To someone who comes from a Unix background and tries to use Windows or OS X, they seem awkward and difficult to use just as much as a Windows user trying to do things in linux.

For example, there is no really good music playing software on Linux.  XMMS is nowhere near good enough.  There is no satisfactory equivalent to foobar2000.

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amaroK, rhythmbox, and mpd with ncmpc come to mind immediately as possible foobar alternatives.

[CaKeY]

Encode many different forms of streaming media properly and efficiently.

Even the most basic (i.e. Real) has to be done from command line.  That and getting some of the newer codecs on Linux is impossible.

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False.

[Ramble]

4. I cannot figure out what services are running so that I can stop those I don't want.

1. ps aux

2. kill [processID]

[Septimus]

False.

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Really?

I'd like to see that. There are some crappy front end's for the Real encoder, but I said efficient.

A pointless post... false. Great well done.

Get WMVHD (9.1 + 7.1 Professional Audio Codec) to play on Linux let alone create it.

I'm not a newbie when it comes to Linux and definately not when it comes to streaming media.

Edited June 23, 2005 by Septimus

[CaKeY]

There are some crappy front end's for the Real encoder...

I'm not a newbie when it comes to Linux and definately not when it comes to streaming media.

Realmedia player 10 is available for Linux. :)

[kaffra]

Yeah it's really hard. Oh wait, it's usually 3 commands or less.  :rolleyes:

Perhaps if people weren't so inept with computers things wouldn't seem so hard?

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I didnt say its hard, i said it would take extra time. For a new user they will need to search for those commands you talk off. Some just want things that work out of the box.

Sorry to say, but everything I have used from the distros I have selected have been configured right out of the box...........  :yes:

Seems like lots of comments are by people who have little or no experience or insight into how these distros work....

Barney

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But this is not about our configurations. I never had major issues, i was refering to cyberfrem post

[johnl404]

Here are the things preventing me from considering Linux "ready for the desktop" (ie: for the non-techie masses)

1. Linux needs to come up with a better and more unified method of installing software.

Having so many different package managers makes it tough to find software that is easily installable in your distro of choice. Yes, you can compile the software but when was the last time you'd had to compile software to install it in Windows? I'm having flashbacks of DLL hell. Package managers are a big help but they're not there yet. Until 100% of the available Linux software is easily installable on any distro, it's a problem.

2. Configuration. I know that tools are being developed all of the time to help with this but having to dig around for various .conf files or even read through them and edit them to make your app work is a huge hassle. I seriously like GUI apps (I can deal with utilities being command-line driven but c'mon... it's a new century, guys). Keeping a .conf file handy for advanced tweaking is a cool concept but it shouldn't be the only way to edit a file. Disclaimer: Obviously, this does not apply to every app and the problem seems to lessen with each new update of a distro.

[Septimus]

Realmedia player 10 is available for Linux.  :)

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Yeah I know, sorry, didn't mean playback.

Real has been the only company who officially supports their codec on Linux. Though their encoders are still rubbish, command line only, no real time previews, nadda. A front end or 2 do exist, but they are unofficial and unstable at the best of times. That and the firewire support through it is pretty bad to.

Flash streaming video works on playback, but again, creating it on Linux is frustrating at the very best of times.

[Mike Douglas]

Really?

I'd like to see that.  There are some crappy front end's for the Real encoder, but I said efficient.

A pointless post... false.  Great well done.

Get WMVHD (9.1 + 7.1 Professional Audio Codec) to play on Linux let alone create it.

I'm not a newbie when it comes to Linux and definately not when it comes to streaming media.

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MPlayer's Supported Codecs

With Ogg Theora, and the HIDEF Ogg Dirac coming soon (most computers are too slow to run it in realtime) we can hold our own.

Septimus: If you are looking for a streaming solution, check out http://www.fluendo.com/

[Septimus]

MPlayer's Supported Codecs

With Ogg Theora, and the HIDEF Ogg Dirac coming soon (most computers are too slow to run it in realtime) we can hold our own.

Septimus: If you are looking for a streaming solution, check out http://www.fluendo.com/

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Thanks for the link, pretty interesting, but delivery isn't a problem. We have ?40,000 servers running Linux for delivery and Windows 2003 AS.

For media creation and viewing though Linux can't cut it currently. We would never advise our customers to use it in a multimedia deployment.

[markwolfe Veteran]

1. Linux needs to come up with a better and more unified method of installing software.

Having so many different package managers makes it tough to find software that is easily installable in your distro of choice.  Yes, you can compile the software but when was the last time you'd had to compile software to install it in Windows?  I'm having flashbacks of DLL hell.  Package managers are a big help but they're not there yet.  Until 100% of the available Linux software is easily installable on any distro, it's a problem.

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Does it really matter that Debian uses apt-get or synaptic, and that Fedora uses yum, or Gentoo users use emerge as their command? They all do the same thing and make finding, installing, and updating apps much easier than in Windows.

Try installing Firefox on a Windows PC and see the steps it takes, and compare it to Linux (even assume that it isn't already included), Keeping updated? Nearly automatic in Linux (or truly automatic if you want to set it up as a cron task!).

I don't buy into your premise there at all. :no:

2. Configuration.  I know that tools are being developed all of the time to help with this but having to dig around for various .conf files or even read through them and edit them to make your app work is a huge hassle.  I seriously like GUI apps (I can deal with utilities being command-line driven but c'mon... it's a new century, guys).  Keeping a .conf file handy for advanced tweaking is a cool concept but it shouldn't be the only way to edit a file.  Disclaimer: Obviously, this does not apply to every app and the problem seems to lessen with each new update of a distro.

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There are some GUI apps, and most of them make modifications to wonderful text files. Slapping a GUI on top of a Windows Registry doesn't make registry changes any less obscure to the "common user". Try explaining what "901E040c-6000-11D3-8CFE-0150048383C9" is. :wacko:

GUIs do not make everything better.

For media creation and viewing though Linux can't cut it currently.  We would never advise our customers to use it in a multimedia deployment.

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No one said that Linux was the best for every app. I would wager that OSX would be a good choice for a lot of media work. ;)

[Mike Douglas]

Here are the things preventing me from considering Linux "ready for the desktop" (ie: for the non-techie masses)

1. Linux needs to come up with a better and more unified method of installing software.

Having so many different package managers makes it tough to find software that is easily installable in your distro of choice.  Yes, you can compile the software but when was the last time you'd had to compile software to install it in Windows?  I'm having flashbacks of DLL hell.  Package managers are a big help but they're not there yet.  Until 100% of the available Linux software is easily installable on any distro, it's a problem.

My Ubuntu install sees 16,885 packages of software right now. I think I'm covered.

2. Configuration.  I know that tools are being developed all of the time to help with this but having to dig around for various .conf files or even read through them and edit them to make your app work is a huge hassle.  I seriously like GUI apps (I can deal with utilities being command-line driven but c'mon... it's a new century, guys).  Keeping a .conf file handy for advanced tweaking is a cool concept but it shouldn't be the only way to edit a file.  Disclaimer: Obviously, this does not apply to every app and the problem seems to lessen with each new update of a distro.

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A basic configuration can be done through the GUI tools given by most distros. And, truthfully, if you need a GUI to configure it, you probably shouldn't be editing it.

[Mike Douglas]

Thanks for the link, pretty interesting, but delivery isn't a problem.  We have ?40,000 servers running Linux for delivery and Windows 2003 AS.

For media creation and viewing though Linux can't cut it currently.  We would never advise our customers to use it in a multimedia deployment.

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I agree with you right now. Hopefully, Dirac will change that.

[Septimus]

No one said that Linux was the best for every app.  I would wager that OSX would be a good choice for a lot of media work. ;)

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Hah, yeah OSX is great for editing and most encoding... it's my main platform at work. But you wouldn't believe the amount of time you just have to go to Windows in this field just because it supports just that 'little bit' but essential more.

[carpetmankent]

*yawns* More crap about Linux being hard to configure, hard to install, hard to update

The more I use Linux (gentoo) and the more I learn, the more tired I become with people saying it is too hard. Sit down, learn it, shut up.

I am past caring who likes it and who doesn't. It runs everything I need it to, It can do everything I want it to. If it doesn't for you, stick to bloody windows. *yawns*

[msg43]

If a dam 13 year old could figure it out almost anyone can. I am now 14 but I started with linux in february

[edbro]

I am past caring who likes it and who doesn't.

*yawns*

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Then, why take the time to post?

[patelvishaal]

If a dam 13 year old could figure it out almost anyone can. I am now 14 but I started with linux in february

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haha so true ppl just got to try, and got to put in a lot of work and not just expect it to happen

by the way wat distro have you installed

only distro i installed has been ubuntu but i have used gento, red hat, knoppix, mandrake, suse, that one that starts with X for got what is called somefin like xog i dunO

I teseted all of them at school :D

i luv my school

[raskren]

Based on my experience with RedHat 9.1:

I can't use my $20 winmodem without cobbled together, unstable drivers. I have to buy a $70 modem.

I can't use the latest hardware. I have to *wait* for *someone* to write a cobbled together, unstable driver. I've never been able to get any Linux distro to boot from my ICH5R RAID array. It is cake with Windows.

I can't reliably read and write to my NTFS disks.

I can't understand the multitude of software package formats and command-line switches

I can't understand the (seemingly circular) package dependency problem.

I can't understand no matter how much I skin KDE or GNOME they still appear to be ugly.

I can't understand nerdy Linux programmer naming schemes. If I know what and how I need to do something, I'll be damned if I can find the software to do it. "Let's make an audio player comparable to Winamp and call it "J". Yeah, just the letter J. Let's make an email client and call it PINE. Email = PINE trees, genious!" How about dropping the cryptic ackronym naming schemes. This disk cleaner is called HONEY. This IRC cllient is called MELANIE. This web browser is called MILESTONE. This makes it incredibly difficult to determine what an application actually does. In Windows if you want to "play media" you open Windows Media Player. If you want to explore the internet...

----

I can add new functionality to Windows without cobbled together hacks (kernel patches) or recompiling the kernel.

I can run a machine without having gigs of source code or a compiler installed.

I can plug in a USB device and it just works. No going online to search for hacks. The manufacturer gives me a Windows driver on CD rom.

I can play damn near any PC game I want and at full frame rates.

Edited June 23, 2005 by raskren

[j.r.l.]

1. I cannot interface with my Motorola v500 mobile phone.

2. I keep personal files encrypted on a USB stick so that I can access them at work or at home (I've only access to Windows at work).

3. I cannot watch "TV Gold" (an Internet TV channel available thru' WinAmp)

4. I cannot figure out what services are running so that I can stop those I don't want.

5. I cannot interface fully with my Creative Zen Xtra Jukebox. I know that gnomad exists and I've tried it but it's not as fully featured as Creative MediaSource (in particular I cannot edit tags once the files are on the Jukebox).

6. I cannot figure out what packages I really need and which can be removed.

7. I don't know if I can interface with my Pocket PC?

8. and others I can't recall at the moment...

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1. -------

2. mount /pathtousbdrive/usbdrive /mnt/usbdrive -t usbfs

3. Amarok, Totem...

4. top, ps -aux

5. KZenExplorer :)

6. Google, apt-get, Synaptic, pkgtool...

7. -------

You can do these things, you just don't know how.

[Mike Douglas]

Based on my experience with RedHat 9.1:

So is this a troll or do you just have a fetish for outdated software?

[CaKeY]

lol, there is no Red Hat 9.1

[CubanPete]

Im not bad mouthing linux here because im more of a fence sitter when it comes to either, i can see the positives and negatives of each side, but i believe a fair few people use linux simply because they dont like microsoft, wont pay the price for the OS, or because they are over worried about security! If you personally dont think any of them then good on you.

If you dont think any of thoes things then i think linux just takes too much effort to get going and choose the right distro, i see it as a Play OS, something that people who enjoy playing around and using new stuff can use.

You'll probably disagree but i see alot of applications and things for linux that basically try to make it like windows and i'd like to see linux produce its own league instead of competing with windows.

[johnl404]

My Ubuntu install sees 16,885 packages of software right now. I think I'm covered.

A basic configuration can be done through the GUI tools given by most distros. And, truthfully, if you need a GUI to configure it, you probably shouldn't be editing it.

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That is exactly what most people using Linux fail to see - who said anything about needing a GUI? Your response is typical and is the reason Linux will stay largely as a "toy" for me. A GUI is usually faster and more "user friendly". Plain and simple.

Anyone who disagrees is fine. I'm not at all saying Windows is better (heck, just ask my friends and family). I'm just saying that Linux has a ways to go before it can claim to accomodate the needs of 90% of the computer-using population.

My Ubuntu install sees 16,885 packages of software right now. I think I'm covered.

Yup, I've used Ubuntu and, I'm sorry to say, it might have you covered but numbers aren't crap. Go through the hassle and setup an SSL compatible newsreader in Linux and you'll know what I mean -- Thunderbird excluded (at least, it supports SSL in Windows so I'm guessing it does in Linux... just haven't tried yet). Stunnel was a pain. Windows = works right out of the box. Linux = alot of hassle to do something as basic as enable SSL in my newsreader (KNode or Pan).

Try installing Firefox on a Windows PC and see the steps it takes, and compare it to Linux

Uhhh... uh huh. Thanks for making my point. Windows = download Firefox installer, click Next, Next, and Next and you're done. Linux = download the latest .tar, extract, install, and run. If it's included with the distro, make sure that the "package manager of choice" has the latest security updates available (sometimes weeks later, I've noticed). Yeah.

I'm not trying to troll. I was simply pointing out what people tell me when I try to convince them that Linux is the way to go (the continued delays in Longhorn only cements my point). Get over it guys. Linux works for some but I'm still right - it's nowhere close to being "there" for the Windows market.