OT: Is Linux too hard?


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joseph-

I think what many linux-saavy users are forgetting is that not everyone in the world has time to memorize a myriad array of command-line arguments, or even if the person does have time, it is a serious undertaking to actually become fluent;

sudo apt-get install xorg-fglrx-driver
mount -o loop file.img /mnt/whatever
chkconfig --list will give you a list of services and the runlevels they start in, etc.. Webmin could be used to give you a pretty gui to this sort of stuff.. "chkconfig --list | sort | grep ':on'

That's not exactly intuitive. Someone used to the Windows world will be *swamped* with a steep-ass learning curve at least for a few months.

My Ubuntu install sees 16,885 packages of software right now. I think I'm covered.

Quanity does not equal quality. And to be honest, browsing through 16,885 individual packages looking for a decent application without doing any sort of research beforehand can be just as daunting, especially with the inane naming conventions used for many open-source apps.

I got off lucky. I'd only been using a mouse and a GUI (Windows 3.1) for a very short time before I decided to try out linux, and I was pretty fluent in DOS prior to that, so it wasn't much of a shock to me. Slackware made a hell of a lot more sense to me than Win95 back in the day. Unfortunately, while Windows has made great strides in GUI usability since the release of 2k/XP, Linux has gone in the opposite direction. System configuration via any sort of GUI in Linux is a joke. Often (particularly in Gnome) the app will freeze up at best, or simply vanish off the screen at worst, with no mention of what happened, where it went, or what is going on. Yeah, using the CLI is a lot faster in linux, mainly because the GUI is usually so painfully inadequate to get anything done. Sorta like riding a bike is also a lot faster than trying to ride a motorcycle with two flat tires. Both methods will get you where you want to go, but if someone is used to hopping in a car (Windows), both options will appear to suck. Package management is *awesome* in linux, however, unless you know what you're looking for, you'll be browsing through something like Synaptic for hours. Imagine walking into a Wal-Mart and nothing but shelves and shelves of identical white boxes, with obscure odd names, and a bunch of small text below the names. Can be very time consuming.

Granted, Linux is a *lot* easier than it used to be...take it from someone that compiled Enlightenment from source back in '97 on a slackware box. Took about a week of pouring through text documents and faqs, and I dreamt about scrolling screens of compilation text output for months afterwards. But its still not as easy for someone to pick up a Linux cd and *poof* into a system administrator as it is installing something like XP.

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sanctified
Adobe Illustrator's closest equivalent would be Inkscape.

QuarkXPress (which if my memory serves me is a DTP) resembles Scribus.

The closest thing to Photoshop is, of course, GIMP (though for image editing, GIMP won't be getting CMYK support for another few months).

If you're missing an important feature, or if you're a professional designer, you should probably check out Crossover Office. Its not emulation btw, its an alernative implementation of the Win32 API.

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And again. More complications for something that I can have in Windows easily. Just a couple of clicks and I am done. :)

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Barney T.

Gee thanks Mark J.,

My initial light hearted happy post this morning has turned into a rip roaring thread (split)......... :o

(Just kidding, ol pal!) :D

Barney

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sanctified
Agreed. Many distros have Firefox packaged in the distro (as a RPM file or whatever). [sanctified] is just not giving some correct information here.  Sorry!  :no:

Barney

586109342[/snapback]

what? When I said anything about Firefox? :huh:

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Barney T.
My complaint was your untarring of Firefox.

And, yes that is a deliberate distortion.  Any attempt to claim otherwise is a bold-faced lie.

586109038[/snapback]

Agreed. Many distros have Firefox packaged in the distro (as a RPM file or whatever). jluckett is just not giving some correct information here. Sorry! :no:

Barney

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Barney T.
,Jun 23 2005, 18:29]what? When I said anything about Firefox?  :huh:

586109348[/snapback]

Ooops, sorry ma man. I mean't jluckett. Earlier post modified......... :blush:

Barney

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johnl404
Agreed. Many distros have Firefox packaged in the distro (as a RPM file or whatever). jluckett is just not giving some correct information here.  Sorry!  :no:

Barney

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To set the record straight, I was referring to the updating of FireFox since I've yet to find a package manager that has the update the same day that it is posted on Mozilla's website. I know that you just have to be patient and then the update is performed easily with whatever package manager. Also, while many distro's ship with the software now many != all.

It's my fault as I was in a rush but hopefully that will clear up some of the confusion. It was a poor choice of words on my part.

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thechitowncubs
Then, why take the time to post?

586108778[/snapback]

advising others like me that almost posted in this topic

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markjensen
To set the record straight, I was referring to the updating of FireFox since I've yet to find a package manager that has the update the same day that it is posted on Mozilla's website.  I know that you just have to be patient and then the update is performed easily with whatever package manager.

586109437[/snapback]

Bah!

The real "update freaks" grab their favorite stuff from the nightly CVS, anyhow. ;)

I just use my yum update and it seems I get same- or next-day delivery, especially on the big apps like Firefox. I could script it, or I could use synaptic, but I just prefer initiating it manually.

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johnl404
The real "update freaks" grab their favorite stuff from the nightly CVS, anyhow. ;)

lol, good point. :yes:

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kyro
,Jun 24 2005, 00:03]Install ATI drivers with ease.

http://www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/installernotes.html

,Jun 24 2005]Have a proper design software without the need of emulation and all the compilation and tricks I need to do to run it and not a its full speed.

someone answered scribus.

,Jun 24 2005]Modify, change, alter, and whatever synonim you choose without recompiling.

i think u do know of yum, apt-get, slapt-get/swaret,portage and all that do it sweetly.

,Jun 24 2005]Seamless OS updates.

up2date(yum is better here. once i mirgrated redhat 9 server to centos 4 without a glitch by yum), uprmi, emerge all that do it sweetly

well but even though u can do everything in linux, thats not enough i guess is the point of keeping so many doubts about linux. its the way it should be done

And linux so far doesnt have a universal rule-of-thumb solution to manage packages also there is no standard way a developer develops apps to install run and look on any linux distro.. some are made to for KDE only (amamrok) so when used in gnome look ugly (atleast not proper). and similar things goes to gtk app not looking good on kde and so-forth.

well by the looks of development of gnome and ubuntu and others ... i think we are close.

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msg43
Well this post is coming from a Windows to Linux back to Windows person.

I didn't abandon Linux because it was too hard or anything, I had to do some googling and some IRCing to learn a lot of things, but I liked it for the most part. However, I found myself booting back into Windows more and more for things I just didn't have the patience to figure out to do in Linux, as I were a little more pressed for time during school. Now that I'm on summer break I think I might dip back into Linux and try it again. Again, it's not that it's harder, it's just unfamiliar and different.

I know I'm not exactly practicing what I preach here, but patience is they key with Linux. And if your distro comes with X-Chat (Like FC3 does), you can use it to your advantage. People in the IRC rooms can be REALLY helpful.

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You have good point there. It can be hard and tough when you need to figure out something and you don't have a lot of time cause you have school (studying, etc...) try it again. As for me I at the point I was trying linux I did not have good studing habits and my grades went down becuase of my habbits. So try linux during the summer plus post here or use IRC I learned most of what I know from IRC help, but don't forget to RTFM (read the fine manual) as they say in irc rooms.

and whom ever said something about there modem here's an easy fix

buy a cheap modem with an ethernet port. If you computer doesn't have a ethernet port buy a pci or usb ethernet card thingy. No more the $40 at the most probably like $25 if your a bargin hunter like me

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LispyGlitter2

while I love the idea of Linux, and have used it, one fact remains. Unless there is a simple way to install programs without the use of the command line, it'll never really be part of the desktop market. Too many times I've installed a distro, and then when I want to install something form the internet, I have no clue what to do and the "instructions" dont' help one bit. There needs to be something similar to an .exe for the linux desktop to TRUELY be accessible for the masses.

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markjensen
while I love the idea of Linux, and have used it, one fact remains.  Unless there is a simple way to install programs without the use of the command line, it'll never really be part of the desktop market.  Too many times I've installed a distro, and then when I want to install something form the internet, I have no clue what to do and the "instructions" dont' help one bit.  There needs to be something similar to an .exe for the linux desktop to TRUELY be accessible for the masses.

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Do you mean maybe something like a superstore mall, where everything is organized into categories, like sporting goods, clothing stores, and so forth? And maybe if you could either search or just browse around and maybe read descriptions on what these apps do before you download them?

If you are waiting for something like that, you have already missed the bus...

Behold, the GUI-goodness that is synaptic:

post-36818-1119562276_thumb.jpg

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msg43

Quit easy, ./configure make make install for almost any program. the INSTALL FILE tells you. Also most distros might have package of the program. I learned it (13 year old at the time) so anyone older than me can learn it. If they have half the brains.

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markjensen

^^^ I am a Linux user, full-time, and I certainly don't want to have to do that to install any apps.

I might have compiled something over a year or two ago, but I don't really remember doing it. It is just not something that I would like to associate my computing experience with.

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Crimson Behelit

^

I'm in the same boat. I'd love to install a system as streamlined and efficient as gentoo onto my rig, but I can't really deal with compiling every single program, package, and dependency.

I'd totally appreciate a binary install of X86_64 Gentoo for K8 processors, but seeing as that won't happen, I'm happy enough learning and loving Ubuntu/Debian.

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ichi

Well it seems to me that argueing is a bit pointless (though interesting and amusing) as people disliking linux will always find something to whine about.

I've been using linux for several years now and I love it. It just makes sense to me. I've faced some problems, but none that I couldn't solve with a little bit of research (well, I've to say I always try to get stuff working by myself before RTFM, hence why sometimes things get fubar).

Sure, it has some problems, but the advantages still make it worthwhile.

I don't see anything being any hard when using linux, but then again after trying to configure my SB16 to work with msdos games and struggling with the RAM hell back in the day, solving any linux issue seems piece of cake.

Also I've never really been into using GUIs. I got a bit upset when MS kinda "forced" me to ditch the command line in order to move to Windows. GUIs can be pretty and all, but they aren't the only way to get the work done, and sometimes certainly not the best way at all.

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insurektion

I went to linux for awhile but it didnt feel comfortable and kept freezing everytime I tried to add my MP3 library (i was on ubuntu) I might give it a shot again soon but I get fed up pretty quickly.

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Slouch

I'm trying to like Linux. I really am. The only thing that I am having trouble with is that I can't get my wireless network card to work. I'm just starting to understand a little bit of the command line thing, but even with some extremely well written guides, I still have trouble. If I could find a distro that worked well my card, I'd be all over it.

The card is in my laptop. It's a Netgear WG511T. I want to use WPA, but everything I've searched for shows that it is not an easy setup. :cry:

I've tried Fedora Core 4 (which was nice) and Ubuntu (which I really like a lot).

To answer this thread's original question, no, I don't think Linux is too hard. However, it's certainly not easy.

If anyone has an easy solution that a Linux newb can handle, please PM me. :D

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msg43

^^ I never was able to get wep or wap to work with ndiswrapper but I also didn't try to hard there I'm in a small neighbor hood and I doubt my neighbors know how to hack a wep so I just said screwed it plus it wasn't aht strong.

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ichi
^^ I never was able to get wep or wap to work with ndiswrapper but I also didn't try to hard there I'm in a small neighbor hood and I doubt my neighbors know how to hack a wep so I just said screwed it plus it wasn't aht strong.

586111248[/snapback]

Never underestimate your neighbours when it comes to getting free broadband :shifty:

(or free <anything>, for that matter)

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Mike Douglas
Never underestimate your neighbours when it comes to getting free broadband  :shifty:

(or free <anything>, for that matter)

586111318[/snapback]

heh, in fact, I prefer my neighbours internet to mine :p

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theotherdave

The only thing I ever end up going to back to Windows for is Visio. I realise that there are perfectly good native Linux diagram and flowchart apps, it's just that my colleagues all work with MS Visio's propriotary .vsd format :angry:

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  • 1 month later...
LilGator
To set the record straight, I was referring to the updating of FireFox since I've yet to find a package manager that has the update the same day that it is posted on Mozilla's website.  I know that you just have to be patient and then the update is performed easily with whatever package manager.  Also, while many distro's ship with the software now many != all.

It's my fault as I was in a rush but hopefully that will clear up some of the confusion.  It was a poor choice of words on my part.

586109437[/snapback]

Wow, I can't even believe you tried to argue that. Installing/updating software in linux absolutely blows away windows.

So you want to update Firefox in windows ... www.firefox.com, download the .exe, run and install the .exe.

What do you do in linux ? Open a console and type three words: yum update firefox. Bam, it does the work for ya, and in a minute, you're updated. After three words in windows, you're only at the firefox homepage ;)

Heck, even more powerful, two (2) words updates every single piece of software on my system. No, not the operating system like Windows Update, ALL the software: yum update.

Just earlier today I needed to install a usenet client. I remembered using Pan a few years back. So in Windows we go to google, and find Pan's homepage, then find and download the installer, yada, yada ... All I had to do was type three more words ;) yum install pan

Budda-boom Budda-bing ...

Linux not support high-end multimedia ? How's this:

Take the Batman 1080p HDTV trailer from Quicktime. Can't play full-speed at all no matter what player I use in Windows, choppy, 10fps, frame-dropping all over the place - CPU pegged @ 100%. A quick: yum install videolan*

Bam, I'm playing 1080p HDTV in VLC full speed, no frame-drops, 70-90% CPU.

As far as music player's go, nothing touches amarok. http://amarok.kde.org/index.php?full=1&set...=view_photo.php

So yeah, in most cases, Linux is even easier than Windows.

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